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Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means.

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My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.

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OrgoneConclusion said:

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Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means.

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I did quite an extensive thread on this. Will try to do the short version. As one cannot use words to accurately describe 'a four-dimensional self transforming machine elf', no one knows that if what you are seeing is the same as what someone else is seeing.

I knew a few dozen people that did DMT long before McKenna's books came out and NOT ONE described their visions as elf-like. Do you understand the concept of cultural coloration?

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OrgoneConclusion said:

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My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.

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We know that it is an internal state and that there is no evidence of anyone travelling outside of their body and viewing things in the physical world.

As there is no interaction with the physical world, there is little outside of psychology or brain scientists to study.

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Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.

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So, we don't know ANYTHING about what OBE's and astral projection are, but yet you claim they exist. How can one state that an object whose properties are completely unknown exists? Doesn't it offend your sense of rationality?

OrgoneConclusion said:

One more time reread the OP. Can't make it any simpler no matter how many pages this runs.

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OrgoneConclusion said:

If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means. Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.

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If you can retrieve new information from a DMT elf then you can determine that it is not fantasy or delusion.

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deranger said:

johnm214 said:

The whole point is that we shouldn't make conclusions untill we have sufficient evidence to support them.

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Exactly, and this is why I am debating against this attitude:

Mushroom Trip said:

Then why is it that they are pompously called "paranormal activities", when they're merely the active imagination that each and every one of us possesses?

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Rejecting conclusions is percisely what we should do in such a case, a point I've made quite clearly in this thread to others alleging that somehow a rejection of conclusions that paranormal activity exists is not a conclusion that it does not (a distinction some continue to fail to see for some reason, which is baffling and seems in some instances to just be disingenuous argument).

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By definition, paranormal activities or experiences exist because example: astral projection is an experience that cannot be explained scientifically nor is it a normal experience.  What's so difficult to understand about this?

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I didn't say you were trying to prove anything, moreover, only that telling others they need to prove the contrary of your position is irrational.

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Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.

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MushroomTrip said:

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Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.

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So, we don't know ANYTHING about what OBE's and astral projection are, but yet you claim they exist.

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How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience. 

johnm214 said:

Astral projection could certainly be measured.  The people could be asked to visualize locations, describe their experiences in all sorts of way, and these could be analyzed.  It could be determined if there is any consistancy at all, if so, it could show that it wasn't just chance.

That's just an example.  We could measure brain wave activity during various activiteis and astral projection, ask for drawings, whatever.


It seems that you like a lot of people have some degree of presumption that scientific investigation must be all fancy and whatnot.  It seems you've overlooked simply asking people to describe their experiences and developing standard measurement models based on either self-reporting or observation.  That is scientific measurement/testing.  Done.

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johnm214 said:

Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?

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deranger said:

How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience. 

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OBE stands for out of body experience. Is there any evidence in any way that people get out of their bodies when they say they had such experiences? Are you using a different language where OBE means something else?

deranger said:

Can you detect a feeling of anger?  You can detect the neural activity it may arise from, but not the feeling itself.

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