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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10591756 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I was merely doing a little playful sparring.


You seem to have a different view when someone else does that.


How so?  When someone does it to me, I spar right back.


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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10592115 -

How could someone with a perspective that includes, but exceeds the rational mind convince a person of transrational experience, especially if the unconvinced person is so inordinately attached to one mental function that he calls himself 'RationalEgo?' :laugh: Preposterous!
I can tell you that I seek balance between Geburah (Din) and Gedulah (Chesed) - that is to say (Qabalistically) between Justice and Mercy. As personalities go, you are skewed to the former, and I am skewed to the latter. I do not share the same moral structure that you do and I would chart it with Lawrence Kohlberg's model. In fact, I would chart it with an unpopular later modification of his moral categories - a 7th stage which enjoins a transcendental principle - an insight-empathic informed morality.

Compassion doesn't extend to Dr. Michael Stone's Category 22 'Psychopathic torture-Murders,' in the sense of permitting them to continue, but it doesn't mean torturing these psychopaths in the way that they tortured others either.

Not only do you not have enough info on The Donald, you can never have enough info to determine whther my inner experiences are transpersonal, transrational, mystical experiences or "fantasies." Fantasies are products of unconscious processes, and they embody both form and affect. Enstasies and ecstasies are categorized in far older psychologies (Yogic), but only approximately in the West. The further origins of such experiences are, what Carl Jung said is "a transcendental problem." You see, transcendental indicates a receding horizon to rational apprehension. This can work in the opposite direction as well. One is not ordinarily conscious of unconscious states, although this too occurs in lucid dreams and in a certain 'waking heart experience in which a depersonalized 'I' is present during Delta wave sleep.

You asserting that there is a reality somehow 'behind' the one we can see. It is up to you to prove that claim. One cannot present ones 'feelings' and 'emotions' as evidence of facts. The whim of ones emotions is not a claim on reality.

I never base my statements on emotion. Feeling is my "inferior function." It is certainly not up to me to prove an inner datum of experience to your sensory-bound rational mind. That is metaphysically absurd. It is up to you to learn how to introspect and become somewhat "inner directed," and learn to cease turning your extraverted gaze on the outer world alone as 'proof' of objective reality. Objective reality is an agreement we all have about obvious sensory phenomenon, but we all have very different perceptions of any given phenomenon.

Lastly, my life in God is an experience which I cannot communicate to you any more than you can see your own perceiving consciousness. I'm pretty sure that you do not doubt your own existence. 'Beneath' your cellular self (most of which you are utterly unconscious of unless you can sit here and tell me how your spleen feels, or the large lobe of your liver) is an 'I,' a perceiving awareness. It is not your eye or your brain and spine or nerves or embodiment. Learn to follow the 'I' sense back to its Source and you will cease demanding 'proof' from 'others' in the objective world. You'll begin to have such questions answered in the only way possible - from within. Dismiss this suggestion and you'll never understand. Perhaps you don't want to understand. I never assume that people want the Truth from immediate experience, especially those who demand that others present it as proof! Inner experiences cannot be presented on a Petri dish, but one can see its effect on the lives of people. You can't see the wind until you see the ripples on a pond.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10592232 -

You make some valid points, but here is the crux:

As one who got the best meditation training available and practiced daily for 10 years with nary an insight or mystical revelation, there are a few possible conclusions.

1. I did not do it right nor for long enough. Do you see the problem with this assessment? One could use this sort of argument for a person failing to magically fly, could it not?

2. Meditation was not my path. OK, whatever...

3. There is actually nothing to get. It is all self-delusion.

As one can easily witness self-delusion as in my regular examples of Jonestown and Heaven's Gate and so on, there is no way to know if such a mystical state is possible EVEN IF ONE MAKES A PROLONGED AND SINCERE ATTEMPT as I have.


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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Silversoul]
    #10593534 -

Silversoul said:
I apologize that my subtle sense of humor does not appeal to you.  I was merely doing a little playful sparring.  What struck me is that your refusal to continue debating happened after I started addressing your points.




Humour is more often than not used to mock and attack. You may think it is playful, but like a child who interrupts an adult conversation, you must learn that it is nothing but rude.

I have addressed most of your points in responding to Markos who brought up the similar points. However, I will respond to your final post that I purposely skipped over when I saw another mystic in this thread who wished to debate in a mature manner.

I will respond to it after I have made my final rebuttal to Marko's post.

Edited by RationalEgo (06/29/09 05:36 PM)

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10593922 -

RationalEgo said:
I have addressed most of your points in responding to Markos who brought up the similar points. However, I will respond to your final post that I purposely skipped over when I saw another mystic in this thread who wished to debate in a mature manner.


But are mature people really interested in wasting energy on discussing such meaningless topics?

I guess I have a much too low dopamine concentration in my brain, to talk endlessly about such meaningless topics.

Why not just accept that Ayn Rand isn't God, and that objectivism isn't anything humans have discovered yet, except for perhaps in the field of mathematics.

Edited by Zanthius (06/29/09 07:06 PM)

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10593953 -

I can only speak for myself, but I took up Yoga (in which meditation is embedded) in order to bring about conditions that I FIRST experienced under the effects of meditation. I have had some experiences which are classifiable under Yoga psychology (subtle body experiences, telepathic experiences, samadhis of differing kinds). Most, but not all of these experiences occurred under the influence of LSD.

I feel your anger and frustration, and I deeply respect your earnest attempts to bring about life-altering experiences which seem like failures. But are they really failures? Do you have a psychedelic experience as an internal frame of reference by which you have been comparing meditative experiences? Have you ever used Yogic methods for intensifying a psychedelic state, sort of like how William Hurt used a Lily tank to intensify his in the film 'Altered States?' I do not do sitting meditation much any more. Not that I am living consciously in some exalted Sat Chit Ananda, but I know that I am in fact living in it less-than-consciously. "Apply the requisite stimulus," said William James, "and there they are in their completeness..." I suppose that I'm not so blessed because I needed to see first in order to believe. Now, it is much more like the process that Eckhart Tolle so eloquently describes about Being. I do not need to live in a hyper-aroused psychocosmic state (except once in a while :smile:). Like Alan Watts said, "This is it!"

Where is the delusion of which you speak? Life in its most intense moments is still 'The Tremendous and Fascinating Mystery' with all of its dread and enchantment taken together. A sober enough mind that is beyond infantile wish-fulfillment will be able to discern hallucination from visionary states, that which Christian theology calls 'assurance' from self-hypnosis, samadhi from semiconsciousness. I trust myself in these things and seek the best-fitting descriptions from enduring systems of knowledge. I can trust, can you?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10598138 -

Quote:
I do not do sitting meditation much any more. Not that I am living consciously in some exalted Sat Chit Ananda, but I know that I am in fact living in it less-than-consciously. "Apply the requisite stimulus," said William James, "and there they are in their completeness..." I suppose that I'm not so blessed because I needed to see first in order to believe. Now, it is much more like the process that Eckhart Tolle so eloquently describes about Being. I do not need to live in a hyper-aroused psychocosmic state (except once in a while :smile:). Like Alan Watts said, "This is it!"


I've never understood this. A while ago I was watching a satsang by Adyashanti, and he said something like "I like spiritual experiences as much as the next guy. Mystical experiences are particularly compelling. Unfortunately, they don't have a lot to do with what Enlightenment is about".

Meaning, I take it, that once you know, you don't have to be there. But life is made up of experiences; for example, what would be the point of having a Van Gogh painting in your house but never seeing it? Would it suffice to have it hidden behind a curtain, as long as you knew it was really there? :confused:

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10619853 -

No comment?

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Epigallo]
    #10625628 -

You refer to one guy's opinion. Mystical religious experiences are intrinsically enlightening. That does not mean that one remains in a heightened peak experience, it means that the peak experience reorders one's entire life! One cannot remain in a peak any more than one can remain on the peak of Mt. Everest. You will never forget the immensity of such an experience, but to remain at the peak of Everest is to perish. It is rarified, etherial, pristine and sterile. It does not sustain warm, cellular human life but it can radically alter the goal and meta-motives of a human life when that human returns to its normal enviornment. But enough mountain peak metaphor.

This is NOT to say that one has an experience of life-altering magnitude and then loses consciousness of it. The 'change-agent' is the non-ordinary intensity that puts all the little petty desires in their proper perspective. Earlier while on I-95, a charcoal colored Ferrari of some kind went weaving in and around traffic that was already moving at 80 mph. A show off. Lots of guys rent these exotic cars in Miami for the weekend. Lots of people can afford to own them and insure them too. They don't drive like show-off adolescents. My Lady and I are taking her daughter to the airport and observing this from a position devoid of the desire to be driving a Ferrari, I see that we are all just driving. That's all a car is for - transportation. We are sitting in an air-conditioned compartment without being show-offs, without self-conscious ego-inlation in our little Mazda 3. The Ferrari has nice lines and wide tires and seems to maneuver well. It attracts the attention of gold-diggers, strippers and hookers. It creates envy in those with similar desires. I see all that, but I feel none of that. Am I driving while tripping balls? No. I simply do not desire a Ferrari or the status afforded it by those who desire such an object, and why? Because of peak experiences in the past that showed me where such adolescent desires are in the greater scheme of one's short life. My values got shifted and my feelings followed accordingly. I could leave my Lady at home, lease a Ferrari for a weekend, cruise strip clubs and lounges in Miami, maybe pick up hooker, take her to a hotel, tell her lies about myself to impress her limited mind, etc. Would my Lady be impressed by a Ferrari? No. She thinks the whole game is as retarded as I do. Why? Because her eyes have also been opened and once that happens, one has not closeted one's mystical awakening. It is alive and well in every moment and every response and every choice one makes.

Your spritual teacher is trying to sound profound. The blissful states, according to Buddhist psychology, are are just that - states. They are not permanently abiding traits. That is what he is saying. Enlightenment is a continuous condition, irregardless of the states through which one passes. It is a condition that transcends states. It is characterized by simplicity of life because in enlightenment, one can continue to get more from watching a butterfly alight on a flower - year after year after year - than a Ferrari driver can get after the novelty of his expensive and impressive car wears thin - when he has to upgrade to a Testerossa.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10629122 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
You refer to one guy's opinion. Mystical religious experiences are intrinsically enlightening.

Your spritual teacher is trying to sound profound.


He refers to one awakened guy's opinion. I like the word Spritual. :grin:
Adya doesn't have to try. If you like Ram Dass and Tolle you would really dig his rap.

All teachers contradict themselves as they are just pointing to something from different angles.
Of course Adya meant that mystical states are great though they don't liberate, they tend to complicate.

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10629327 -

I understand that peak experiences alter attitudes that remain throughout different types of experiences. It just seems that in addition to this, with development, one needs to be more conscious at baseline. If not to just make things more interesting, it seems heightened consciousness can help one function better; not give into knee jerk reactions, come up with more creative solutions, be more influential and spread more joy, and so on.

I think the reason watching a butterfly on a flower is satisfying is tied to heigtened consciousness - at least, more vibrant than a mind that needs to watch explosions on a theater screen to relieve boredom. The sight must be reverberating with some mental patterns; maybe the colors and movements that are consciously taken in are analyzed, in the back of the mind, against past experiences of how things move, or form, or are arranged. For it to be interesting, you must be watching consciously.

The trend would seem that the greater the extent to which you are in "tripping balls" consciousness, the more fulfilling simple moments can be.

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Middleman]
    #10631835 -

Yeah, I wasn't putting him down, I was putting all of us up. Some folks, like Tolle, have a true gift for communicating with Vajra clarity in a book or two. Ram Dass was around for a good chunk of the early 70s before the psychedelic mind-set was overcome by the disco-cocaine mentality. He was on radio W-BAI Boston, and while he communicated a great deal to a great many, it took him a lot more effort than Tolle. I do not regard other humans as being 'more' spiritual than someone else. That has been the whole problem with Christianity: it made Jesus a different specie than other instead of a different degree of focus. I mean was John 'more spiritual' a person than Mark or Luke, for example? There are 'earthier' spiritualities and more etherial ways of looking at The Way. There's Zen which was affected by Taoism and there's Tibetan Buddhism which was affected by Indian Yoga. Simplicity vs. complexity, earthy vs. intellectual. There's your take, and my take, and his take. I think I have to take one. Later.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Epigallo]
    #10631842 -

Eh...yup.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10634436 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
As one who got the best meditation training available and practiced daily for 10 years with nary an insight or mystical revelation.


I have not yet managed to meditate every day for more than 28 days, though on day 28 I had an unmistakable mystical experience.

What kind of meditation were you doing?

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10634455 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
I do not regard other humans as being 'more' spiritual than someone else.


Sure, but some are more 'awake' or 'conscious' than others. All these guys have said that everyone has moments of awakening though few recognize it and even fewer sustain it.

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Middleman]
    #10635178 -

The sky looks more blue to me than it does to you.  :tongue:

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10635194 -

The chemtrails have blocked out all of my blue sky.:hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Icelander]
    #10636932 -

http://www.floridaeconetwork.com/

This just in in today's e-mail. It's the end of the world!

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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10640853 -

The world (as we know it) never really was now, was it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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