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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Zanthius]
    #10576350 - 06/26/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So you have like a bot inside of you, that you can set to generate thoughts without your own effort. Interesting.




There are learned, automated thoughts that have long since been integrated into the subconscious. These require no effort to spring into the concious mind at all.

For example, you no longer have to 'think' about the answer to 2+2 anymore, the thought springs to mind instantly.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Zanthius]
    #10576357 - 06/26/09 11:49 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
I don't think all thoughts require effort.




So you have like a bot inside of you, that you can set to generate thoughts automatically, without any of your own effort required. Interesting.





Ever watch the free show just before you fall asleep? No effort required.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
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Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Icelander]
    #10576557 - 06/26/09 12:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
I don't think all thoughts require effort.




So you have like a bot inside of you, that you can set to generate thoughts automatically, without any of your own effort required. Interesting.





Ever watch the free show just before you fall asleep? No effort required.




I wish it were free!
I love the visual imagery that can come in the pre-sleep state.
It just doesn't always happen, most times I lay down and am out before I know I'm heading there.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10576647 - 06/26/09 12:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
"What is mysticism? Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one's senses and one's reason. Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as "instinct," "intuition," "revelation," or any form of "just knowing." - Ayn Rand



Listening to Ayn Rand talk about mysticism is like listening to the pope talk about sex.


--------------------

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Silversoul]
    #10576650 - 06/26/09 12:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Listening to Ayn Rand talk about mysticism is like listening to the pope talk about sex.




That's the most idiot statement I've read in a long time. You must be such a great philosopher. With those kinds of smears perhaps you should be in the propaganda business.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10576653 - 06/26/09 12:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Listening to Ayn Rand talk about mysticism is like listening to the pope talk about sex.




That's the most idiot statement I've heard in a long time.






That's pretty low coming someone who listens to Ayn Rand all the time.


--------------------

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Silversoul]
    #10576668 - 06/26/09 01:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Chill pill anyone?


--------------------

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Silversoul]
    #10576669 - 06/26/09 01:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


That's pretty low coming someone who listens to Ayn Rand all the time.




Are you going to ad homenin all day or are you going to actually add anything of substance to a discussion?

Edited by RationalEgo (06/26/09 01:07 PM)

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,300
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10576674 - 06/26/09 01:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Question for you RationalEgo: Is life mystical?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Rahz]
    #10576682 - 06/26/09 01:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Question for you RationalEgo: Is life mystical?




No. Life and reality is knowable, definable, this worldly, concrete and anyone with a capacity for reason can pursue and gain happiness in the real world by achieving rational values.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10576701 - 06/26/09 01:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
There are learned, automated thoughts that have long since been integrated into the subconscious. These require no effort to spring into the concious mind at all.

For example, you no longer have to 'think' about the answer to 2+2 anymore, the thought springs to mind instantly.




Quote:

RationalEgo said:
I have many thoughts based on whim like 'I fancy a cup of coffee right now' that require no effort at all. But say I had a choice between tea and coffee, I would have to put some effort into thinking weighing up the pro's and con's of choosing either tea and coffee.




Sometimes, though, that choice between tea and coffee, that is to say the actual process by which one chooses one or another, can certainly happen without effort of the conscious mind as well, that it can complete itself just the same as the more simple thought "I fancy a cup of coffee right now". I'm just saying that one would have to choose between one thing or another doesn't necessarily imply that it would require some conscious effort of decision-making, because decision-making doesn't have to be conscious. Its just a question of, like you said, how much they've been automated and integrated into the subconscious.

I agree with your distinction between the usual thought processes that we can observe and conscious consideration of how to think and how to make decisions.
I see it as being a question of to which degree one is being conscious of these processes... that is, the difference isn't between the thoughts or the processes of thinking them, but a question of how conscious one is being throughout the process and how it influences the results.

Quote:


A feeling or an emotion is not an appropriate tool for understanding reality. Emotions are reactions to values, but reason is the means to ascertain and choose what is of value.




Personally, I'm finding this to be an incomplete portrayal of emotions, how they arise, what they mean, and the role they play in decision-making and determining value. I don't see emotions as being a reaction to values, but rather what we consciously experience as a result of the way the unconscious mind functions, how the unconscious mind sorts and assembles the vast amount of information and experience we've always been having into a coalesced experience. Emotions can be accurate representations of understanding and truth, in that they are experiences that are comprised of vast collections of even what were once conscious, reasonable lines of thought.

They can be very appropriate tools for understanding aspects of reality, especially used in conjunction with reason (and vice-versa!). Especially the nature of one's own psychology, but often there can be subtle aspects of a circumstance that our unconscious pattern-associating will pick up on and express through emotion before the conscious mind tunes in on it (or figures out why the feeling is there). Intuition is a great example. I also don't understand singling out reason as the means of ascertaining and choosing what is of value against emotions and how one feels. I have more ideas in mind for what to say but its pizza time and this is mostly it. :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,300
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10576709 - 06/26/09 01:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

No.




:laugh:

So you understand everything there is to understand? You know all there is to know about the nature of existence? Nothing is mysterious to you?

Hmm.

I will venture to say, that a person who places all their faith in logic and rationality, will eventually find themselves to be lacking. But I appreciate the direct answer.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Rahz]
    #10576729 - 06/26/09 01:12 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The mystical nature of the mystical




Could you next start a thread on 'The redundant nature of redundancy'?


--------------------

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10576743 - 06/26/09 01:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I don't buy into the freudian concept of the 'unconcious' mind, yet I do think there is ample evidence for a subconscious that stores and integrates information.

My coffee and tea example was not a very good one, i'll admit that, one could go no further than the whim of wanting some coffee. I spelt my idea out more clearly in the example I gave in the following post regarding mathematics.

As for emotions I stick by my definition of them being a response to values. I'll think of a useful example to post while a go make a cup of coffee. :wink:

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: Rahz]
    #10576762 - 06/26/09 01:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

No.




:laugh:

So you understand everything there is to understand? You know all there is to know about the nature of existence? Nothing is mysterious to you?

Hmm.

I will venture to say, that a person who places all their faith in logic and rationality, will eventually find themselves to be lacking. But I appreciate the direct answer.





You are confusing definitions. There are many things I don't know. What I would never do however is make an assumption based upon 'faith'. Evidence is required for verification of facts, this is how we can know things in reality, through reason, not superstition. To use faith and make assumptions based upon nothing but floating abstractions is to abdicate reason to whim, selling out the very faculty upon which you rely to know anything about the facts of reality.

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,300
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10577121 - 06/26/09 02:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

The mystical nature of the mystical




Could you next start a thread on 'The redundant nature of redundancy'?




I thought perhaps someone would mention that bit of fun. You never cease to impress OC.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Loc: The Barricades
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10577172 - 06/26/09 02:45 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:


That's pretty low coming someone who listens to Ayn Rand all the time.




Are you going to ad homenin all day or are you going to actually add anything of substance to a discussion?



You know, on second thought, it was a stupid thing of me to say.  For one thing, the pope presumably knows people who have sex.  Ayn Rand lacked even this second-hand knowledge of mysticism.  I doubt she had much third-hand knowledge of it either.

Now, if the pope wanted to know more about sex, he could consult Ayn Rand, who knew enough about it to fuck one of her students who was married to another one of her students.  Then she demonstrated the rational self-control over her emotions that she'd always advocated by spending years trying to destroy him after he fell in love with someone else.


--------------------

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10577176 - 06/26/09 02:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

The mystical nature of the mystical




Could you next start a thread on 'The redundant nature of redundancy'?



I've got a great contribution for that thread:  Existence exists.


--------------------

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,300
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10577186 - 06/26/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

No.




:laugh:

So you understand everything there is to understand? You know all there is to know about the nature of existence? Nothing is mysterious to you?

Hmm.

I will venture to say, that a person who places all their faith in logic and rationality, will eventually find themselves to be lacking. But I appreciate the direct answer.





You are confusing definitions. There are many things I don't know.




It takes no faith to admit that much of life is mysterious. If you are defining mystic as a "condition" which only afflicts a specific subset of individuals, perhaps you are missing the point, and the proper definition. There are those who call themselves mystic, as if to separate themselves from others, and within a certain connotation of the word, based upon accepted usage, they could be considered to be correct. However, I would offer the possibility that within their desire to be special, they miss the true meaning of it.

In the same way, a person who accepts such a definition, may also be missing the true meaning of the word. If you let them twist the word from your vocabulary, you might do yourself a dis-service.

Is life wonderful? That seems to be the crux of the word. To view mysticism as something more than a subjective interpretation of the unknown, could be foul play. But that shouldn't stop us from having a sense of wonder. As long as a person does not commit themselves and deceive their own mind, it is OK to appreciate it. And of course, many people seem to need to stick their hand in the bucket of tar, to know they don't want to stick their hand in the bucket of tar.

Quote:

What I would never do however is make an assumption based upon 'faith'. Evidence is required for verification of facts, this is how we can know things in reality, through reason, not superstition. To use faith and make assumptions based upon nothing but floating abstractions is to abdicate reason to whim, selling out the very faculty upon which you rely to know anything about the facts of reality




I couldn't agree more. This is why I said I thought we have some views in common, and why it can be good to come to a consensus on a definition before trying to argue about it.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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Offlinetittysnacks74
Stranger

Registered: 06/05/09
Posts: 111
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: The mystical nature of the mystical [Re: RationalEgo]
    #10577351 - 06/26/09 03:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
"What is mysticism? Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one�s senses and one�s reason. Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as �instinct,� �intuition,� �revelation,� or any form of �just knowing.� - Ayn Rand

I explicitly reject mysticism in favour of reason. I hope more people will do such. This world would be a better place to live in.




This is hardly a viable definition. Ms. Rand simply equates a controversial word with irrationality and surrounds it in vehemence; her definition is in direct conflict with the cirtical, rationalistic schema she seems to be in favor of, as her generalization is anything but rational and open minded.

"Mysticism (from the Greek μυστικός, mystikos, an initiate of a mystery religion ) is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, or insight. ..."

link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

Mysticism in the classic sense merely refers to the devotion to the direct religious experience, as opposed to adherence to doctrine. It sees perfectly reasonable to me that direct experience is worthier of faith than mere knowledge of scripture.

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