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Vore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Memories]
#16666719 - 08/08/12 04:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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- Bullshit, you can't show me one thing pointing towards frequent use of GHB for rape.
First of all, you can't make a statistic about date rape drugs that easily. GHB isn't found in urine samples so hair samples would have to be taken of all suspected victims. Secondly, who would fund those drug tests? Some of the girls can't even quite remember being violated, and if they do remember they aren't automatically going to identify it with a date-rape drug and go off to drug test themselves. Even if they do, the readily available drug tests are urine tests, not hair sample tests, which cost much more money. Usually the victims are also drinking alcohol, so many probably identify their inebriation more with the alcohol than with an unknown substance. The reason people use it to rape is because it's god damn effective and hard to identify. How the fuck would you make a statistic? There aren't bullet holes. What are they going to do, go to the police?
The way police often handle rape cases is often pathetic. I have had female friends go to the police and be dismissed with a positive identification of their assaulter because it's his word against theirs.
- LSD has the potential to be a pretty dangerous and effective weapon depending on what it's being used for. Torture, interrogation, "brainwashing," MKULTRA used it for all kinds of things.
The government attempted to use LSD for these purposes. They also attempted to use it to train super soldiers. It wasn't effective, that's why they don't use it. It's not a "sure-thing" as a truth serum but I'm sure it could be used to torture. I think most people would save the $20 and just stab them in the leg with a knife, though.
- What other drugs would you throw in that group, and what drugs would you leave out?
I'll add rohypnol to my statement. I'm on the fence about many other drugs, so I'll keep it to those three for now - GHB, Rohypnol, Scopolamine. I would decriminalize hard drugs and put it under state control to avoid the Black Market sale - much like the Netherlands do. The State would distribute the drugs, curbing the black market. I would legalize soft drugs, so a normal market would form around them.
- What if we legalized GHB and just said that using it as a weapon or using it on other people against their will was illegal? Does that make sense?
I maintain that drug-related crime using GHB will go down if GHB is illegalized and that if mainstream drugs were legal, less people would want to use GHB. Blackmarket sales of GHB for malicious purposes will be inevitable, but it would create less of a negative impact on society than straight up legalizing it.
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extreme



Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 9,340
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16666777 - 08/08/12 04:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I maintain that drug-related crime using GHB will go down if GHB is illegalized and that if mainstream drugs were legal, less people would want to use GHB. Blackmarket sales of GHB for malicious purposes will be inevitable, but it would create less of a negative impact on society than straight up legalizing it.
How would it go down, it's already illegal isn't it..?
Also if more drugs were legalized, I'd still want to try GHB. Maybe I'm stupid for wanting to try it but you should look into the positive effects it provides under recreational usage. It's kinda unlike any other drug.
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Vore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: extreme]
#16666791 - 08/08/12 04:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Slip of tongue, replace with "stay down" and "stays illegalized."
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Wimy
weiliiinmyyard



Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 5,659
Loc: SE USA
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: extreme]
#16666806 - 08/08/12 04:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Xanax can be used as a date rape drug. From all the accounts I've heard of it I'd say it's probably more popular too
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MorphinTime
Tulpa



Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 7,151
Loc: Angel Grove
Last seen: 6 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16666976 - 08/08/12 05:15 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
weiliiinmyyard said: Xanax can be used as a date rape drug. From all the accounts I've heard of it I'd say it's probably more popular too
Most benzos can be used as date rape drugs. Demonizing certain ones like rohypnol seems kinda dumb. Like I said earlier, many drugs can be used as a weapon or to otherwise take advantage of someone.
Quote:
Vore said:
- LSD has the potential to be a pretty dangerous and effective weapon depending on what it's being used for. Torture, interrogation, "brainwashing," MKULTRA used it for all kinds of things.
The government attempted to use LSD for these purposes. They also attempted to use it to train super soldiers. It wasn't effective, that's why they don't use it. It's not a "sure-thing" as a truth serum but I'm sure it could be used to torture. I think most people would save the $20 and just stab them in the leg with a knife, though.
Yes the government attempted to use LSD for these purposes. Like I said, it may have been unpredictable but it was successful and effective in some cases. Meaning it can be used as a weapon, regardless of whether it's always a sure thing. And people who want to torture without leaving a physical scar probably wouldn't want to stab someone in the leg with a knife.
Quote:
- What other drugs would you throw in that group, and what drugs would you leave out?
I'll add rohypnol to my statement. I'm on the fence about many other drugs, so I'll keep it to those three for now - GHB, Rohypnol, Scopolamine. I would decriminalize hard drugs and put it under state control to avoid the Black Market sale - much like the Netherlands do. The State would distribute the drugs, curbing the black market. I would legalize soft drugs, so a normal market would form around them.
I'm not really familiar with how the Netherlands controls hard drugs, could you describe their system for curbing black market sales?
Quote:
- What if we legalized GHB and just said that using it as a weapon or using it on other people against their will was illegal? Does that make sense?
I maintain that drug-related crime using GHB will go down if GHB is illegalized and that if mainstream drugs were legal, less people would want to use GHB. Blackmarket sales of GHB for malicious purposes will be inevitable, but it would create less of a negative impact on society than straight up legalizing it.
How can you be sure?
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Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16667114 - 08/08/12 05:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
First of all, you can't make a statistic about date rape drugs that easily. GHB isn't found in urine samples so hair samples would have to be taken of all suspected victims. Secondly, who would fund those drug tests? Some of the girls can't even quite remember being violated, and if they do remember they aren't automatically going to identify it with a date-rape drug and go off to drug test themselves. Even if they do, the readily available drug tests are urine tests, not hair sample tests, which cost much more money. Usually the victims are also drinking alcohol, so many probably identify their inebriation more with the alcohol than with an unknown substance. The reason people use it to rape is because it's god damn effective and hard to identify. How the fuck would you make a statistic? There aren't bullet holes. What are they going to do, go to the police?
The way police often handle rape cases is often pathetic. I have had female friends go to the police and be dismissed with a positive identification of their assaulter because it's his word against theirs.
So why the hell would you presume that GHB is frequently used to rape girls when there is no evidence supporting that notion?
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Vore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Memories]
#16667249 - 08/08/12 06:09 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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- So why the hell would you presume that GHB is frequently used to rape girls when there is no evidence supporting that notion?
Listening to first hand accounts and common sense.
How often do you think date-rape drugs are used? It's common knowledge that they are used, but ascertaining often they are used is ultimately up to your judgment.
- Yes the government attempted to use LSD for these purposes. Like I said, it may have been unpredictable but it was successful and effective in some cases. Meaning it can be used as a weapon, regardless of whether it's always a sure thing.
Unpredictable weapons aren't used in anything but the entertainment industry.
- And people who want to torture without leaving a physical scar probably wouldn't want to stab someone in the leg with a knife.
Good point, but LSD is a poor way to get information. If you're seriously involved in a crime circuit or a government unit with the intention of extracting information, you can learn to torture someone with your hands without leaving a mark. You can also torture with words. LSD isn't used because it isn't effective as a predictable truth serum.
- I'm not really familiar with how the Netherlands controls hard drugs, could you describe their system for curbing black market sales?
Here are some helpful links: http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/free-heroin-brings-everyone-a-bit-peace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands
Basically hard drugs are illegal to trade and manufacture, but they won't send you to jail for using. They also manufacture their own hard drugs. I don't agree with their decision process on who "deserves the drugs," but compared to other countries they set a pretty good example.
Just my opinion amigo.
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MorphinTime
Tulpa



Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 7,151
Loc: Angel Grove
Last seen: 6 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16667585 - 08/08/12 07:11 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vore said:
Unpredictable weapons aren't used in anything but the entertainment industry.
In most cases that's correct, but the point I'm trying to make is that LSD can be used as a weapon, just as GHB can be used as a date-rape drug.
Quote:
- And people who want to torture without leaving a physical scar probably wouldn't want to stab someone in the leg with a knife.
Good point, but LSD is a poor way to get information. If you're seriously involved in a crime circuit or a government unit with the intention of extracting information, you can learn to torture someone with your hands without leaving a mark. You can also torture with words. LSD isn't used because it isn't effective as a predictable truth serum.
Using LSD as a torture weapon doesn't have to be for interrogation purposes or otherwise obtaining information. It could just be used for psychological torment at the pleasure of the torturer.
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Vore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
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- In most cases that's correct, but the point I'm trying to make is that LSD can be used as a weapon, just as GHB can be used as a date-rape drug.
GHB produces repeatable results on those under the influence and it is not subjective.
LSD is subjective with unpredictable results, as hence it isn't used as a weapon. I don't think all things with the potential for harm should be banned, and I don't think LSD should be illegal. GHB, on the other hand, is an easy tool to use for immobilizing a victim.
- Using LSD as a torture weapon doesn't have to be for interrogation purposes or otherwise obtaining information. It could just be used for psychological torment at the pleasure of the torturer.
If they're doing it for pleasure, I doubt they will care about a knife wound.
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Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16667632 - 08/08/12 07:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Listening to first hand accounts and common sense.
How often do you think date-rape drugs are used? It's common knowledge that they are used, but ascertaining often they are used is ultimately up to your judgment.
It would become apparent through police reports. You know what drug is reported in many rape cases? Alcohol. GHB's use in rape is almost non-existent compared to Alcohol.
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Vore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Memories]
#16667651 - 08/08/12 07:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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How would someone without knowledge of GHB or having their drink dosed report it?
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LuSiD9
reality is plastic



Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 4,705
Loc: The Bowels of Canada
Last seen: 14 days, 4 hours
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Memories]
#16667674 - 08/08/12 07:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have a feeling that people who rape people, could give a rats ass if GHB is legal or not if they're going to use it... it's really not that hard to come by even though it's illegal.
it's like saying banning guns will stop criminals from using them.
-------------------- Nothing is true, everything is permissible. Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.
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MorphinTime
Tulpa



Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 7,151
Loc: Angel Grove
Last seen: 6 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16667773 - 08/08/12 07:47 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vore said:
- In most cases that's correct, but the point I'm trying to make is that LSD can be used as a weapon, just as GHB can be used as a date-rape drug.
GHB produces repeatable results on those under the influence and it is not subjective.
LSD is subjective with unpredictable results, as hence it isn't used as a weapon. I don't think all things with the potential for harm should be banned, and I don't think LSD should be illegal. GHB, on the other hand, is an easy tool to use for immobilizing a victim.
I've just been using LSD as an example because you didn't seem to think it should be illegal. Most benzos can be used as effective date-rape drugs, and sometimes they are used for such purposes. Does your opinion of them differ from your opinion on GHB?
Quote:
- Using LSD as a torture weapon doesn't have to be for interrogation purposes or otherwise obtaining information. It could just be used for psychological torment at the pleasure of the torturer.
If they're doing it for pleasure, I doubt they will care about a knife wound.
If they're doing it for pleasure, they would do it however it pleased them. Not all torturers want to physically harm their victims. Sometimes fucking with the mind is the goal, and LSD can be used as a weapon to facilitate the accomplishment of such a goal.
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Vore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
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- I've just been using LSD as an example because you didn't seem to think it should be illegal. Most benzos can be used as effective date-rape drugs, and sometimes they are used for such purposes. Does your opinion of them differ from your opinion on GHB?
My knowledge of benzos is limited to the specific drug Rohypnol. I won't make a judgment call on the others, I don't know enough about them and how their effects differ from Rohypnol and GHB.
- If they're doing it for pleasure, they would do it however it pleased them. Not all torturers want to physically harm their victims. Sometimes fucking with the mind is the goal, and LSD can be used as a weapon to facilitate the accomplishment of such a goal.
This is very out there. The benefits of freedom over LSD outweigh the remote possibility of it being used for torture. It's not the same case for date-rape drugs.
- it's like saying banning guns will stop criminals from using them.
I'm not going to beat a dead horse, go back a page in the thread.
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PLOWTO



Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 740
Loc: Dodongo's Cavern
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16726188 - 08/19/12 11:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vore said:
GHB might have a decent high, I wouldn't know, .
that's right you don't know . try it before you criticize it . the high is amazing , much better than alcohol imo .
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: PLOWTO]
#16794089 - 09/05/12 05:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PLOWTO said:
Quote:
Vore said:
GHB might have a decent high, I wouldn't know, .
that's right you don't know . try it before you criticize it . the high is amazing , much better than alcohol imo .
It is far superior to alcohol in every aspect. In my humble opinion, of course. No hangover in the morning is another huge plus.
--------------------
   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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birdland


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16795349 - 09/05/12 09:29 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you really think that rape would become more commonplace if GHB were legal?
This seems to suggest that many would-be rapists simply don't rape because they are scared of obtaining an illegal drug? As if that is more dangerous than raping someone?
I mean if you're going to argue it's because they can't get their hands on a date-rape drug I personally believe from experience that is absolute rubbish. GHB and especially benzos are readily available. Do you seriously believe somebody who wanted one of these drugs would not be able to find it after any amount of searching?
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Vore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: birdland]
#16795420 - 09/05/12 09:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you really think that rape would become more commonplace if GHB were legal?
Yes. I'd ballpark 500 cases of rape in the US a year, but because this subject is hard to track in terms of hard evidence its hard to pinpoint figures.
This seems to suggest that many would-be rapists simply don't rape because they are scared of obtaining an illegal drug?
I think many would-be rapist don't rape because they're scared of a lot of things. In this case it would be fear of obtaining an illegal drug, difficulty in obtaining an illegal drug, added dangers in obtaining an illegal drug, added time in obtaining an illegal drug, additional effort to obtain an illegal drug, and other shit I'm too limited to think about.
GHB and especially benzos are readily available.
To socially adept people, which I assume many rapists aren't.
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MorphinTime
Tulpa



Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 7,151
Loc: Angel Grove
Last seen: 6 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
#16796377 - 09/06/12 12:05 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vore said:
GHB and especially benzos are readily available.
To socially adept people, which I assume many rapists aren't.
Your argument seems to be based on many assumptions.
Whether rapists or prospective rapists are socially adept or not, GHB is still easily obtainable. Check Wiccan_Seeker's thread
As far as benzos, the less socially adept you are the easier it is to get a script for them.
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DeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
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Quote:
MorphinTime said:
Quote:
Vore said:
GHB and especially benzos are readily available.
To socially adept people, which I assume many rapists aren't.
Your argument seems to be based on many assumptions.
Whether rapists or prospective rapists are socially adept or not, GHB is still easily obtainable. Check Wiccan_Seeker's thread
As far as benzos, the less socially adept you are the easier it is to get a script for them.
And removing these two drugs would not put and end to rape.
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