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InvisibleVore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16664054 - 08/08/12 12:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Statistics of gun deaths in Japan are extremely low. I believe this is a result of the gun prohibition there.

Quote:


The U.S. was first at 14.24 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Two other countries in the Americas came next. Brazil was second with 12.95, followed by Mexico with 12.69.

Japan had the lowest rate, at 0.05 gun deaths per 100,000 (1 per 2 million people). The police in Japan actively raid homes of those suspected of having weapons.




http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6166

I consider GHB and Scopolamine weapons, not recreational substances. GHB might have a decent high, I wouldn't know, but it's used with malicious purposes too often to be put under the same hood.


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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16664061 - 08/08/12 12:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

yeah they just kill themselves there thats all :cool:


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InvisibleVore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16664078 - 08/08/12 12:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

That's irrelevant. Suicide rates probably have more to do with population density, competition levels, and a srs business culture than anything to do with weapons.


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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16664093 - 08/08/12 12:54 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Guns are irrelevant in prohibition unless you arr talking about all the deaths caused bu
prohibition to begin with. Look at all the shit going down in Mexico. You think that shit would
still be going down if pot and cocaine were legal? :laugh2:


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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: DeadHearts] * 2
    #16664100 - 08/08/12 12:56 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Diploid hit the nail on the head earlier.




Quote:

Diploid said:
Portugal decriminalized ALL personal possession laws for ALL drugs across the board. Guess what horrible things happened to their society:

1. Drug use went down
2. Drug crime went down
3. People seeking treatment now that they know they won't get locked up went up
4. Fewer kids started using drugs
5. Drug gangs moved out to other countries with prohibition where they can still make money
6. Drug dealers were put out of business and had to find real jobs
7. AIDS/HIV infection from shared needles went down
8. The country is saving a bundle not locking up drug users who just want to be left alone (or treated for addiction).
9. Thousands of narcotics police officers are now free to go after real criminals, like rapists and murderers

The list goes on. Read it for yourself if you don't believe me.

There are some great videos on YouTube of a dog with a long stick in his mouth trying to get through a narrow doorway. The stick keeps bumping into the doorway and the poor dog just bounces back and tries again, and again, and again. He's too stoopid to realize that to solve the problem, he has to try a different approach.

Drug prohibitionists are like dogs.




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InvisibleVore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16664116 - 08/08/12 12:59 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Prohibition isn't limited to recreational substances, silly.

I was talking about 2 specific substances with cross-over to weapons.

Cocaine and marijuana are also 2 popular substances. I already said mainstream prohibition doesn't work.

And by the way, "decriminalized" is not the same status as "legal," which reinforces my first statement: The poll is too limiting on a complex subject.


Edited by Vore (08/08/12 01:00 AM)


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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore] * 1
    #16664132 - 08/08/12 01:03 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vore said:
Prohibition isn't limited to recreational substances, silly.

I was talking about 2 specific substances with cross-over to weapons.






:facepalm:

Im too tired for this shit. You can use a fork as a weapon. Better ban it.


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InvisibleVore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16664148 - 08/08/12 01:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Did I say all weapons should be banned? I agree, you are too tired for this shit.


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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore] * 1
    #16664173 - 08/08/12 01:11 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I mean who the fuck wants GHB anyways. If that shit is banned who really gives a shit :shrug:

I think most of us could agree that we are talking about the shit that is most used as well as
what drugs put most people behind bars. These are the drugs that matter here. But still if you
want to huff paint knock yourself out. As long as you are not hurting anyone then we should be
free to do as we choose.


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InvisibleVore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16664198 - 08/08/12 01:19 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
I mean who the fuck wants GHB anyways. If that shit is banned who really gives a shit :shrug:




That's my point. No one does. It is however frequently used as a weapon, and I'm glad it's scheduled.

Quote:

I think most of us could agree that we are talking about the shit that is most used as well as
what drugs put most people behind bars.




It doesn't matter what "most people" are talking about. The poll is clearly defined and incredibly restricted.

Quote:

Without exception, all drugs should be LEGAL for informed, responsible adults to use in the privacy of their own home.

OR

Some drugs should be ILLEGAL even for informed, responsible adults to use in the privacy of their own home.




Moreover, OP uses the thread as the end all be all as if the dissenting opinions mean as his signature suggests: "One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like." When that's not necessarily the case.


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OfflineMorphinTime
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16664435 - 08/08/12 03:12 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vore said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
I mean who the fuck wants GHB anyways. If that shit is banned who really gives a shit :shrug:




That's my point. No one does. It is however frequently used as a weapon, and I'm glad its scheduled.






Plenty of people use GHB for recreational purposes.  Those people probably care about it's legality.

Also, pretty much any drug can be used as a weapon or otherwise used to take advantage of someone.







Quote:

Vore said:
Moreover, OP uses the thread as the end all be all as if the dissenting opinions mean as his signature suggests: "One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like." When that's not necessarily the case.




In the case of GHB, which you are glad is scheduled, what should be the penalty for possession or personal use by adults?  Prison?  A fine?  Community service?


--------------------


Edited by MorphinTime (08/08/12 03:47 AM)


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Offlinejizmaster

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 346
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16664440 - 08/08/12 03:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I like GHB, and I bet you'll find a lot of other people do too. And I don't think it's 'used as a weapon' as often as you think. This was published in 99, when I guess GHB was pretty easily available:

Quote:

Over a 26-month period, 1179 samples were collected and analyzed from 49 states... Four-hundred sixty eight of the samples were found negative for all the substances tested; 451 were positive for ethanol, 218 for cannabinoids, 97 for benzoylecgonine, 97 for benzodiazepines, 51 for amphetamines, 48 for GHB, 25 for opiates, 17 for propoxyphene, and 12 for barbiturates. In addition, 35% of the drug-positive samples contained multiple drugs. This study indicates that, with respect to alleged sexual assault cases, the prevalence of ethanol is very high, followed by cannabinoids, cocaine, benzodiazepines, amphetamines, and GHB. Although only a couple of substances have been implicated with sexual assault, this study has shown that almost 20 different substances have been associated with this crime.




It does say that, "most of the urine samples were taken from these individuals within 72 h of the reported incident," which is a bit longer than ideal, so the numbers for GHB are probably a bit higher.

Quote:

"One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like." When that's not necessarily the case.




Isn't it? Like you said the poll is very clear, what do you think they mean?


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Offlinekeeno
enthusiast
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Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 2,679
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16664565 - 08/08/12 04:42 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vore said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
I mean who the fuck wants GHB anyways. If that shit is banned who really gives a shit :shrug:




That's my point. No one does. It is however frequently used as a weapon, and I'm glad it's scheduled.






it's not frequently used as a weapon, that's a media myth
alcohol is much more widely used in these kind of situations

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071020113144.htm


I'm not coming out in favour of GHB, sounds pretty rubbish to me, just wanted to point out that the media whip these things up into a frenzy and it's just more disinformation out there.
prohibition won't change shit, if someone's an evil fucker, they'll do that to someone no matter what.

I think if people had the choice as to what they took, they'd less likely be drunk until they fall down, and would be safer as a result IMHO
(after say a nice pure dose of MDMA, pure water and a pleasant evening surrounded by empathetic people)


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Offlinekeeno
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: MorphinTime]
    #16664575 - 08/08/12 04:50 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vore said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
I mean who the fuck wants GHB anyways. If that shit is banned who really gives a shit :shrug:




That's my point. No one does. It is however frequently used as a weapon, and I'm glad its scheduled.






Plenty of people use GHB for recreational purposes.  Those people probably care about it's legality.

Also, pretty much any drug can be used as a weapon or otherwise used to take advantage of someone.









:whathesaid:

plastic bags can be used as weapons too, or arms and legs, should we ban them?

you might think I'm being ridiculous there and stretching the analogy too far, but it's not the substance that's at fault surely, it's the person who uses them
and in terms of this argument about prohibition, we're advocating responsible adults having the choice to use drugs on themselves, not vindictively against others, which is right to be a crime.
that's the central argument

it's my body and mind, I'll do what the fuck I want with it

outside of this, it's up to fellow humans to make sure this doesn't spill over into harming others (emotionally or physically)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore] * 1
    #16664889 - 08/08/12 07:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Statistics of gun deaths in Japan are extremely low. I believe this is a result of the gun prohibition there.

Apples and oranges.

For prohibition to work, there must be support for it among a substantial fraction of the population. The people of Japan generally don't want or care much about owning guns. That's why gun prohibition works there.

However, drug use in Japan is ongoing and rapidly increasing despite tough drug prohibition laws there. Why? Because a large fraction of the population wants them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: keeno]
    #16666252 - 08/08/12 02:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

alcohol is much more widely used in these kind of situations

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071020113144.htm


Someone knows they are drinking alcohol. GHB can be easily slipped into into a drink. It's much more useful as a weapon than, say, LSD because that might have many different effects - many undesirable in a victim - like glossolalia and the possibility of a panic.


it (GHB)'s not frequently used as a weapon, that's a media myth


Source? I can say UFOs are downplayed by the media, that doesn't make it true.


Plenty of people use GHB for recreational purposes.  Those people probably care about it's legality.


I honestly don't know the stats, GHB never appealed to me. In this case I'd say sorry folks, there are a zillion other drugs you can use.


plastic bags can be used as weapons too, or arms and legs, should we ban them?


No, and I don't think guns should be illegalized either. It's another moot argument - the assumption I think all weapons should be illegal. There are certain weapons and substances I think should be controlled, however. I'd throw GHB in with nerve gas and agent orange.


For prohibition to work, there must be support for it among a substantial fraction of the population. The people of Japan generally don't want or care much about owning guns. That's why gun prohibition works there.


However, drug use in Japan is ongoing and rapidly increasing despite tough drug prohibition laws there. Why? Because a large fraction of the population wants them.



I totally agree with you, and I don't think conventional mainstream drugs should be prohibited, but I really doubt the public is going to resist a ban on scopolamine, and the poll says "without exception" all drugs.


Further-more, I don't think drugs like meth should be legal, I think they should be de-criminalized.


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Invisibleextreme
Male


Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 9,340
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16666424 - 08/08/12 03:15 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What's with this stuff on GHB?  Just cuz it can be used to KO people?  I see that no better reason to make it illegal than most drugs.  Saying "suck it up and use other drugs" is that attitude people that are content with alcohol would take against like, all other drugs.  I don't really like that reasoning personally, but that's me.  I've never even done it before but have always wanted to and imagine it would be more fun for me than booze.

Also there's the thing that's probably been repeated a lot already in this thread, but if people are in search for something illegal: drug, gun, bomb, date-rape substance... they will find it if they look hard enough.  I don't see how continuing to regulate it as such is going to stop it from being used in these negative circumstances.  Which like completely ignores any of the people using it for it's normal recreational reasons.

Also I think fewer would argue that something like scopolamine is recreational.  That's not like GHB where it still offers benefits to its user under normal circumstances.  I personally would not like a "recreational dose" of that drug, and I don't think anyone would.  That's different.



I think almost everything should be made legal, but it surely won't happen all at once.  So when it comes to deciding which comes first, that's where you gotta be smart so the rest fall into place.  I would say without doubt, Cannabis has to be #1 on that list.  I'd say psychedelics/MDMA next because they are highly demanded but those would be tougher for the general population.  Psychs still scare a lot of people though their physical damage is next to nothing, and I'd say MDMA because every happy raver that wants to dance their ass off and wants to be high on something other than alcohol is usually gonna choose that.  Then again I don't think MDMA or any amphetamine is really fantastic for your brain.  That's why as you ease down the chain you gotta take baby steps and do the right ones first.

I think even coke should at least be decriminalized someday, but regulating it could be kinda tough just because of what it does to people.  I don't think coke is really any worse than alcohol though in my book.


It'll be a trip watching things pan out :strokebeard:


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InvisibleVore

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 1,772
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: extreme]
    #16666531 - 08/08/12 03:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

  • Saying "suck it up and use other drugs" is that attitude people that are content with alcohol would take against like, all other drugs.


Completely different. I seriously doubt if 95% of http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ were legal, many people would be complaining about the 5% banned for frequent use to rape.

  • Also there's the thing that's probably been repeated a lot already in this thread, but if people are in search for something illegal: drug, gun, bomb, date-rape substance... they will find it if they look hard enough.


The point wouldn't be to eliminate it - that's impossible. The point would be to reduce it. For all the claims that the drug war doesn't work, I know I trip on psychedelics at least 1/2 as much as a result of it. I don't agree with it, but its definitely effective in some ways.


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OfflineMemories
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Registered: 05/09/12
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16666583 - 08/08/12 03:45 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Bullshit, you can't show me one thing pointing towards frequent use of GHB for rape.


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OfflineMorphinTime
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Vore]
    #16666614 - 08/08/12 03:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vore said:
alcohol is much more widely used in these kind of situations

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071020113144.htm


Someone knows they are drinking alcohol. GHB can be easily slipped into into a drink. It's much more useful as a weapon than, say, LSD because that might have many different effects - many undesirable in a victim - like glossolalia and the possibility of a panic.




LSD has the potential to be a pretty dangerous and effective weapon depending on what it's being used for.  Torture, interrogation, "brainwashing," MKULTRA used it for all kinds of things.  While it was unpredictable, it certainly got the job done for some of their subjects.  If someone's goal was to psychologically torment a victim,  all it would take is slipping LSD into food or drink.  It's easy, like with GHB.  You don't care for GHB.  I bet many people don't care for LSD and rationalize it being scheduled in the same way you do for GHB.   



Quote:


Plenty of people use GHB for recreational purposes.  Those people probably care about it's legality.


I honestly don't know the stats, GHB never appealed to me. In this case I'd say sorry folks, there are a zillion other drugs you can use.





LSD didn't appeal to many people because it scared the shit out of them.  It got scheduled.  Same with many other drugs commonly used in a recreational sense.  Are they potentially dangerous, like GHB?  Sure.  I'm sure legislators are sorry though.  But hey, there are plenty of other drugs that haven't been scheduled yet.  No big deal, right?

Quote:

There are certain weapons and substances I think should be controlled, however. I'd throw GHB in with nerve gas and agent orange.




What other drugs would you throw in that group, and what drugs would you leave out?


Quote:

I totally agree with you, and I don't think conventional mainstream drugs should be prohibited, but I really doubt the public is going to resist a ban on scopolamine, and the poll says "without exception" all drugs.


Further-more, I don't think drugs like meth should be legal, I think they should be de-criminalized.




If meth was decriminalized, there would probably be fewer meth users in jail.  This is good.  But if it's not legal and regulated, organized crime and all the problems associated with it will still get funding from distributing it.  That's not so good.

What about GHB though?

Quote:

MorphinTime said:
In the case of GHB, which you are glad is scheduled, what should be the penalty for possession or personal use by adults?


 

Decriminalizing it would keep recreational GHB users out of jail, but people could still use it as a weapon if they wanted to and decriminalization wouldn't really affect that.  What if we legalized GHB and just said that using it as a weapon or using it on other people against their will was illegal?  Does that make sense?


--------------------


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