MushroomTrip said:
Ohh damn, where shall I begin with all this?
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You asked me what culture I'm talking about. I'm talking about a culture that says to itself "the world was made for man and man must conquer and rule it". I'm talking about a culture centered on an extremely labor intensive form of agriculture. This labor intensive agricultural system allowed massive surpluses, which allowed for huge population growth.
Before I go on I want to stress that there is nothing wrong with this style of agriculture. Any style of living is fine. There is no one right way for people to live. Different cultures had a huge variety of ways to live off the land, all ranging from pure hunting/gathering to pure agriculture. This one hit the extreme of pure agriculture.
What made this (our) culture unique and dangerous is that it put the idea into our heads that this is how man was meant to live. The power we had over the environment, which we gained at great cost, seemed only natural to us that this is how we should live. We have complete control over our food supply and so obviously (to them and thus us since we are the same culture) this is how we were meant to live. This is our destiny.
Funny how you say that we can always choose but in the same time you state this THIS is our destiny.
Doesn't it sound awkward to you?
It does to me. 
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That vision of mankind aided by their style of agriculture is the culture I'm talking about. That culture is everywhere, both east and west. It is the vision that the world is meant for us and that we need to conquer it. It is the vision that we KNOW how to live and others do not.
Define for me "we" and "others"
It is very important for you to do so because this discussion has an acute need of getting out of ambiguity into the light. 
Until we don't settle that this thread looks like a drunken bee. 
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In this way diversity has been crushed. There is now only one way to live in this world. Our population is out of control and we work everyday to supply food for it. This only makes our population grow bigger. Give a population more food than it needs and it will get bigger - every time. It's the most clearly established fact in all of ecology.
Really? 
Is there only one way to live? Can you please elaborate with some evidence?
You know what I see when I look at this world?
Yes, diversity all over the place.  That, and tons of people who LOVE to whine about the quality of their lives, without doing anything to change that.
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I digress. The point is that our culture self-perpetuated itself. It grew and it grew and it conquered and it conquered. It grew due to it's labor intensive agricultural style (which means population will grow, no matter what) and it spread because they (we) knew we were right. It only felt natural.
It only felt natural when in fact it was... 
And here the series of contradictions continue:
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It doesn't mean it was the correct choice. It also doesn't mean that we are flawed for making that choice.
And then you suddenly say:
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It was a bad choice...
Make up your mind.
Was it a neutral choice just as you stated first or was it a bad choice?
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and it is being self-corrected just like any other unstable biological strategy.
Elaborate.
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So where does Jesus come in? Jesus, and all the salvationist religions (all of the religions in the world) only arose because of our culture.
Just a thought... since all the religions are salvationist, why do you have to make that reference anymore?
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The crushing lack of real diversity in lifestyles and the population explosion has created a world filled with problems. They don't remember that it was ever different so they believed that this is just -how it is-. They believe that this, our culture, IS humanity. They don't understand that this, our culture, is just that. Our culture. It is the culture of man trying to take over the world. Only that.
Besides the fact that you REALLY have to clarify "they" "our" "others" and the like... WHAT are you talking about? 
Our culture, just like any other IS humanity. Wanna know why? Because it contains humans. 
Isn't that hilarious?
Our culture trying to take over the world is human 
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That's the key - people don't remember that it was and can be different. Everyone assumed that mankind started 10,000 years ago as totalitarian agriculturist civilization builders. Anything before that is regarded as "pre"-history, despite the fact that it was homo sapiens sapiens at the helm. The other 190,000 years are, for some reason, disregarded. They didn't live like us so they can't be humanity. Why not? Why is our last 10,000 years the ONLY right way to live?
People don't remember?
Of course they don't, they weren't there.
Ahhh, perhaps you mean that history doesn't say too much about the pre-agrciltural era.
Now that's different.
Let's take a look and think about why is that.
Well, using common sense, reason & all that other shit, we will soon realize that the main reason why it is so is because of the insufficiency of data-material to cover entire history books. Also because, from what we know about those times, nothing really out of the common has happened in order to catch our attention and make it history.
History serves the purpose of learning about humanity's past in order to learn something from it and to give us a certain notion about where we come from. (please don't start here with the true nature of our souls and where are they really coming from).
So, where was I?
Do your really think that if knew more about those times we'd have more diversity?
Scientists are now gathering more & more data about the dinosaur era, now that's diversity at it's best for you.
Ahhhh yes. Did you know that the average lifespan in the pre-agricultural era was 30 years?
Couldn't we say that in this way the quality of our lives has improved?
Do you really think that the problems that the world is facing right now are because of agriculture? 
Only one-sided view people live with the impression that we're on the road to destruction. It doesn't mean that this isn't a possibility, but considering other possibilities, this is less likely to happen.
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Jesus taught us we needed saving. As did the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. They all teach salvation because we felt we needed it. Things weren't working and nobody remembered a time when things did work. Those times existed for 190,000 years at least.
How the fuck do you KNOW all that?
It baffles me how some people have the tendency to whine and cry over the good old past (in your case the pre-agricultural era ) instead of waking the fuck up and learn something from NOW. Or at least enjoy it.
Oh oh, I know I know, don't tell me. You can't do all that when you know that the world is falling apart. Poor baby 
This is nothing else but escapism.
What if... people started considering agriculture (and industry, and technology) because of a shift in awareness?
Because they realized that there was room for more efficient?
Ahhh, I know! Shame on them that they couldn't predict all the potentially destructive aspects. 
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Millions more for our earlier homo ancestors. They worked that way for so long because they worked! That sounds circular but it isn't.
Duh! 
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There is no right or wrong for living. There is only what works. If it works it will continue. What worked continued for hundreds of thousands of years and only we, our culture, decided to take it upon ourselves to tell others how to live.
Which of course, is NOT human nature. Because that's where this discussion started from. 
1.) Maybe I wrote the sentence poorly. When I said "This is our destiny" I was still referring to how the people who started this culture felt. They felt that taking over the world was their destiny. It was their choice to follow those beliefs. It doesn't mean it IS our destiny. We don't HAVE a destiny because there is not just one way to live. That is just how they felt about it. They felt that their current culture was how humanity was meant to live and so they forced it on others. As a perfect example let's take the invasion of native american lands. We felt that they weren't living properly and so we did whatever it took to take their land and start using it properly.
2.) To define "we" and "others" I'll just use the same example because it's a good one. "We" being colonists, "others" being native americans. "We" being people who are SURE that our way is the best way to live and that everyone needs to live just like us, and "others" as people who don't feel that way.
3.) When it comes to diversity I'll make the argument that there is very little real diversity. There are no real differences in how anyone lives. The food is under lock and key in every society in every country on earth. We grow enough food to extend this population every year. Every religion promises salvation and tells us that we are flawed in some way. Who cares if we can listen to country or rap? Or go out to eat or stay in? Or climb Mt. Everest or some other mountain. These are just little differences in our free time. There is no real difference in how anyone can go about surviving.
4.) The choice to extend this culture in our methods was a bad choice. It doesn't mean WE are bad for making that choice.
5.) Elaborating on the self-correction is probably the point where we branch off onto other topics and where this will turn into an argument, but I'd list things like territorial-based warfare, crime, massive social corruption; things like that. Also terrible ecological problems based on our huge intake of beef and corn. Overfishing. I could go on. I'm not saying all these problems are catastrophic right now. I'm saying that if we keep growing, which we WILL, then these problems are only going to get worse.
6.) I'll re-iterate that this culture is NOT huamnity. It is what we think humanity is because almost all humans on earth are now part of this culture. That is exactly what I'm talking about. You say this culture is humanity because it contains humans. At a time not even 1000 years ago there were HUMANS in OTHER cultures.
7.) To paraphrase the next point, do I think the problems of the world today are because of agriculture? To an extent, yes. It's due to mass agriculture. It's because we think we are different from any other species. Give any population enough food to grow and it will grow. We think we can fix our population with condoms and birth control pills but we can't. Maybe on an individual level I can stop it. I can wear condoms. You can wear condoms. At the level of a species, which is not able to be looked at and controlled so easy, if there is food there will be growth. Fact.
8.) How do I know that the "good old past" worked? Because we made it that far. We made it for millions of years and now we're (admittedly possibly) ending after only 10,000 years.
9.) Skipping some down to "Because they realized that there was room for more efficient?". Of course there is room to be more efficient. Does it mean everyone else has to be? And efficient in what? Growth? Yes we are efficiently growing to spectacularly stupid population density. Yes we are efficiently stockpiling food.
I'm not saying it's time to go back to the stone age. I'm saying it's time we think about the fact that we aren't the only way humans have ever lived. We're a very small portion of how humans have lived. 1/200th of the best guess of the duration of homo sapiens sapiens.
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