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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Jesus' teachings were very harmful
    #7812950 -

Jesus taught us that we humans can be saved. Jesus taught us that we humans NEED to seek salvation. Jesus taught us that if we humans don't seek salvation then we are doomed.

We don't need salvation. We didn't need salvation for hundreds of thousands of years. Maybe our culture does, but we as a species do not. Any teaching that says we as a species need salvation is incredibly destructive and should be forbidden.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7812963 -

First of all you don't know if it was Jesus who said all those things.
Second of all, I think that they originally had other meanings and aims to them and that "salvation" and the like are concepts invented by the church.
It is always us (humans) who delude ourselves and confuse our minds.
Thinking it was Jesus (son of god and therefore someone with a higher power than us) is deeply wrong and can trigger psychosis.
Let's remain lucid and keep in mind that we're the only ones responsible for our fuck ups. :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7812974 -

That's exactly what I'm saying. We're responsible for our fuck ups not because we are flawed and need salvation. Merely because we are responsible for our fuckups.

Salvationist religions (all of them, including Buddhism) warp our minds telling us that "it's ok that we fuck up, we can't help it. It's human nature", when in reality it's not. We can do better. It's a culture failure not a species failure.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7812994 -

Yes but what you seem to omit is that the culture IS produced by the species.
HUMANS produce the social structure.
How do you that it's not human nature to fuck up?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813024 -

freddurgan said:
Jesus taught us that we humans can be saved. Jesus taught us that we humans NEED to seek salvation. Jesus taught us that if we humans don't seek salvation then we are doomed.

We don't need salvation. We didn't need salvation for hundreds of thousands of years. Maybe our culture does, but we as a species do not. Any teaching that says we as a species need salvation is incredibly destructive and should be forbidden.


When you say "saved" what do you think this means? Saved from what? Why does one need "saving"?

The Christian answer is someone is saved from the wrath of God. God hates sin, all are sinners, sinners will be eternally punished under God's wrath.

Look at the history of Man with countless wars and violence. Doesn't this prove Man's nature is naturally wicked?

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: fivepointer]
    #7813180 -

Quote:
When you say "saved" what do you think this means? Saved from what? Why does one need "saving"?

The Christian answer is someone is saved from the wrath of God. God hates sin, all are sinners, sinners will be eternally punished under God's wrath.


Your god can kiss my butt. :smirk:

Quote:
Look at the history of Man with countless wars and violence. Doesn't this prove Man's nature is naturally wicked?


Wicked compared to what?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813318 -

What about justice? This world and its people are so fuck up. Who has the last word? People are accountable for their actions. Good and bad.

You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.

I find out that the closer the world gets to judgment the more people try to avoid it by spreading lies. Whether one want to admit it or not each person will be judged. Even these crazy religious groups. They do more harm than good.

You need to remember that your just a man. There are way bigger things in the universe that exist. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them does not make them void. It just makes you lost.

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813415 -

MushroomTrip said:
Yes but what you seem to omit is that the culture IS produced by the species.
HUMANS produce the social structure.
How do you that it's not human nature to fuck up?


That's where you're wrong. Humans produced different cultures for millions of years. This one particular culture, centered around a myth that it's the "one" way for people to live, is just that; one culture. It's a culture that spread out of control. This culture we live in is not inevitable. It is not the destiny of humans. It was and still is a choice. We as humanity lived differently for millions (loosely humanity) or hundreds of thousands (homo sapiens sapiens) of years.

It's a choice. We just all forgot that it is.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813514 -

Quote:
That's where you're wrong. Humans produced different cultures for millions of years.


Ok, so what's your point here?
Yes, humans produced different cultures, ALL of them according to HUMAN NATURE. That unless you're speaking of some kind of alien conspiracy which shadow guided us according to their nature. :rolleyes: And EVEN SO... just for the sake of the argument, if we followed and behaved accordingly it is because it is related to who we are.
With other words you can't make a frog bark. :lol:
We only do things which resonate with aspects of our nature.

Quote:
This one particular culture, centered around a myth that it's the "one" way for people to live, is just that; one culture.


This one meaning which?
Humans DO have the right and possibility to choose.
Those who consider that this (whatever you're talking about) is the only way to live, have these beliefs because of their choices.

Quote:
It's a culture that spread out of control.


As opposed to which culture? :smirk:
No matter how you twist it, it is in human nature to control. It resides in the nature of being alive. The simple fact that we choose between two types of foods is because we wish to control the quality of what we eat/drink/breathe.
Perhaps you want to say that other cultures don't seem so desperate. This is something else and if you wanted to say that, then I agree with you up to a certain point which can be debatable but it is not of a direct concern for this topic.
Self improvement seems to be in human nature too.
I think that your perception is that you can't have both.
What if it is in human nature to both fuck up AND self improve? :shocked: And so much more!?
Can YOU conceive what are the implications of that?  :hotidea:

Quote:
This culture we live in is not inevitable. It is not the destiny of humans.


And what is the destiny of humans? Do you believe that humans have a destiny?
I don't :hehehe:
I think you're confusing human nature with destiny.
And making use of a logical deduction here (correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be pretty much convinced that it is not in human nature to fuck up, whilst it is in human nature to choose. So automatically you stated that it is in our destiny to choose:

Quote:
It was and still is a choice.


Hmmm :strokebeard:

Quote:
We as humanity lived differently for millions (loosely humanity) or hundreds of thousands (homo sapiens sapiens) of years.


And?... :tongue:

Quote:
It's a choice. We just all forgot that it is.


Yeah everything is a choice.
A possible chosen outcome from a multitude of them.
ALL of them according to our nature.
Unless you have other explanation such as....... (please fill in the blanks)  :thanx:
How do you determine, trough what measurements and appreciations, what IS in human nature and what IS NOT in human nature?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: marz13]
    #7813565 -

Quote:
What about justice? This world and its people are so fuck up. Who has the last word? People are accountable for their actions. Good and bad.


What about justice? :shrug:
How do you REALLY determine what's just?
By watching TV? :smirk:
By reading a law book? :strokebeard:
One thing I agree with what you said, that is people are responsible for their actions.

Quote:
You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.


And by whom was the man created may I know? :sherlock:
And which facts determined you to state that we are not animals? Perhaps we are trees? :grin:
Also you said that animals :rolleyes: kill to eat and we kill to have power. This means that there is a difference between us and them. Then why did you continue to say that we are not animals since you already emphasized a difference and HOW you entire rant was an answer to my question, since you compared us with animals, which using your logic can't be compared to us? :lol:

Quote:
I find out that the closer the world gets to judgment the more people try to avoid it by spreading lies. Whether one want to admit it or not each person will be judged. Even these crazy religious groups. They do more harm than good.


How did you find that out? :satansmoking:

Quote:
You need to remember that your just a man. There are way bigger things in the universe that exist. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them does not make them void. It just makes you lost.


And what are we talking about here? I mean what are YOU talking around here and what gave you the impression that I would not acknowledge the fact that this Universe might have "bigger" things in it and what does it have to do with this discussion.
Please clarify.
Also please pay attention because there is a reply to option and next time you reply to me, make sure you select that option.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813593 -

Was this moved from P+S?

Religious debates are no longer allowed in M+P.

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813614 -

Jesus did his best:lol: Who even knows if he said all that stuff? Religion in general IMO is immature and designed as a distraction and a power grab more than anything else.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813689 -

How can I plant a seed that gives life when the soil is hard as a rock and contains no nutrients?

Wisdom is a find more precious than gold. Once you have here you wont want to let her go. 

I have spent many years seeking, questioning and listening. Most people just question but refuse to listen.

I belong to a holy tribe. The knowledge that I share has been past down for thousands of years. This holy tribe gathers in Spirit, not in flesh. The knowledge comes from the Spirit and NOT from the mouth of man.

May you find mercy and grace in on your journey.

Have a nice day. :flowers:

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: marz13]
    #7813706 -

And this is how you (elegantly) avoided all my questions. :lol:
Have a nice day too


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813711 -

Hey he's holy. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Icelander]
    #7813713 -

One can't argue with that :bow:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813718 -

Jesus was great, it was the 13 other bastards that fucked everything up.

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: marz13]
    #7813722 -

There is no universal social standard, in some situations killing is justified and/or commemorated. Your idea of good and bad is not universal, therefore it all depends on society's standards.

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Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: xFrockx]
    #7813732 -

xFrockx said:
Jesus was great, it was the 13 other bastards that fucked everything up.


I always told Jesus he was too good for them  :shake:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813772 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
That's where you're wrong. Humans produced different cultures for millions of years.


Ok, so what's your point here?
Yes, humans produced different cultures, ALL of them according to HUMAN NATURE. That unless you're speaking of some kind of alien conspiracy which shadow guided us according to their nature. :rolleyes: And EVEN SO... just for the sake of the argument, if we followed and behaved accordingly it is because it is related to who we are.
With other words you can't make a frog bark. :lol:
We only do things which resonate with aspects of our nature.

Quote:
This one particular culture, centered around a myth that it's the "one" way for people to live, is just that; one culture.


This one meaning which?
Humans DO have the right and possibility to choose.
Those who consider that this (whatever you're talking about) is the only way to live, have these beliefs because of their choices.

Quote:
It's a culture that spread out of control.


As opposed to which culture? :smirk:
No matter how you twist it, it is in human nature to control. It resides in the nature of being alive. The simple fact that we choose between two types of foods is because we wish to control the quality of what we eat/drink/breathe.
Perhaps you want to say that other cultures don't seem so desperate. This is something else and if you wanted to say that, then I agree with you up to a certain point which can be debatable but it is not of a direct concern for this topic.
Self improvement seems to be in human nature too.
I think that your perception is that you can't have both.
What if it is in human nature to both fuck up AND self improve? :shocked: And so much more!?
Can YOU conceive what are the implications of that?  :hotidea:

Quote:
This culture we live in is not inevitable. It is not the destiny of humans.


And what is the destiny of humans? Do you believe that humans have a destiny?
I don't :hehehe:
I think you're confusing human nature with destiny.
And making use of a logical deduction here (correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be pretty much convinced that it is not in human nature to fuck up, whilst it is in human nature to choose. So automatically you stated that it is in our destiny to choose:

Quote:
It was and still is a choice.


Hmmm :strokebeard:

Quote:
We as humanity lived differently for millions (loosely humanity) or hundreds of thousands (homo sapiens sapiens) of years.


And?... :tongue:

Quote:
It's a choice. We just all forgot that it is.


Yeah everything is a choice.
A possible chosen outcome from a multitude of them.
ALL of them according to our nature.
Unless you have other explanation such as....... (please fill in the blanks)  :thanx:
How do you determine, trough what measurements and appreciations, what IS in human nature and what IS NOT in human nature?



You asked me what culture I'm talking about. I'm talking about a culture that says to itself "the world was made for man and man must conquer and rule it". I'm talking about a culture centered on an extremely labor intensive form of agriculture. This labor intensive agricultural system allowed massive surpluses, which allowed for huge population growth.

Before I go on I want to stress that there is nothing wrong with this style of agriculture. Any style of living is fine. There is no one right way for people to live. Different cultures had a huge variety of ways to live off the land, all ranging from pure hunting/gathering to pure agriculture. This one hit the extreme of pure agriculture.

What made this (our) culture unique and dangerous is that it put the idea into our heads that this is how man was meant to live. The power we had over the environment, which we gained at great cost, seemed only natural to us that this is how we should live. We have complete control over our food supply and so obviously (to them and thus us since we are the same culture) this is how we were meant to live. This is our destiny.

That vision of mankind aided by their style of agriculture is the culture I'm talking about. That culture is everywhere, both east and west. It is the vision that the world is meant for us and that we need to conquer it. It is the vision that we KNOW how to live and others do not.

In this way diversity has been crushed. There is now only one way to live in this world. Our population is out of control and we work everyday to supply food for it. This only makes our population grow bigger. Give a population more food than it needs and it will get bigger - every time. It's the most clearly established fact in all of ecology.

I digress. The point is that our culture self-perpetuated itself. It grew and it grew and it conquered and it conquered. It grew due to it's labor intensive agricultural style (which means population will grow, no matter what) and it spread because they (we) knew we were right. It only felt natural.

We as a culture decided this was the one way to live. We made that choice. It doesn't mean it was the correct choice. It also doesn't mean that we are flawed for making that choice. It was a bad choice and it is being self-corrected just like any other unstable biological strategy.

So where does Jesus come in? Jesus, and all the salvationist religions (all of the religions in the world) only arose because of our culture. The crushing lack of real diversity in lifestyles and the population explosion has created a world filled with problems. They don't remember that it was ever different so they believed that this is just -how it is-. They believe that this, our culture, IS humanity. They don't understand that this, our culture, is just that. Our culture. It is the culture of man trying to take over the world. Only that.

That's the key - people don't remember that it was and can be different. Everyone assumed that mankind started 10,000 years ago as totalitarian agriculturist civilization builders. Anything before that is regarded as "pre"-history, despite the fact that it was homo sapiens sapiens at the helm. The other 190,000 years are, for some reason, disregarded. They didn't live like us so they can't be humanity. Why not? Why is our last 10,000 years the ONLY right way to live?

Jesus taught us we needed saving. As did the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. They all teach salvation because we felt we needed it. Things weren't working and nobody remembered a time when things did work. Those times existed for 190,000 years at least.  Millions more for our earlier homo ancestors. They worked that way for so long because they worked! That sounds circular but it isn't. There is no right or wrong for living. There is only what works. If it works it will continue. What worked continued for hundreds of thousands of years and only we, our culture, decided to take it upon ourselves to tell others how to live.

I'm not talking about America. I'm not talking about any nation or race. This is worldwide. We have decided we need to take over the world and every nation is trying to do that, whether they are rich or poor, black or white.

We don't need saving. We were fine just the way we were and still are. We are slowly awakening to the fact that we are the truthful antichrists, aware of our independence of any salvation.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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