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InvisibleSwami
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Teachings that Ring True
    #3601479 - 01/09/05 02:31 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Disclaimer: This is a spin-off from shroomism's thread, but is not intended in any way to mock him or hurt anyone's feelings - ever.

Shroomism claims that he can tell true teachings because they somehow resonate with him. While this sounds mystically beautiful, how does one fit in the following of people like Koresh and Jones or even Manson or Hitler? If there was no force involved, then the followers must have found something that resonated with their core for whatever reason.

Here is my question: As this feeling seems to be faulty in detecting the truth in some (if not all) people, cannot we not come up with a better, more objective metric? Isn't it imperative, or does most everyone believe that their judgement is superior than the masses who made poor choices?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Swami]
    #3601517 - 01/09/05 02:42 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I guess I would look at the whole picture.  If I see what Hitler is doing and it looks good to me, I will buy into his philosophy.

If I see what Jones is doing and it looks good to me, I will buy the kool-aid.

If I see what Jesus is doing and it looks good to me, I will try my best to model him. 

First, look at who is being modeled.  If the behavior being modeled is considered bad by a majority, then I suppose that whoever follows the line of thinking modeled could be considered to be twisted.

If the behavior is benign, or good, then what is the big f'ing deal? 

See, I draw the line at criticizing beliefs that another might hole at this:  Will it hurt another? 

Do the beliefs that Shroomism holds hurt anyone?  What's wrong with him saying, "Based on what I know, based on what I've been told, based on things that no one can prove, here is what I believe." 

Is he wrong?  No, because you can't prove a negative.  Same as for me.  Does God exist?  Maybe, maybe not.  Can't prove He does, can't prove He doesn't.  N'est pas?  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Frog]
    #3601539 - 01/09/05 02:50 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I guess I would look at the whole picture. If I see what Hitler is doing and it looks good to me, I will buy into his philosophy.

If I see what Jones is doing and it looks good to me, I will buy the kool-aid.

If I see what Jesus is doing and it looks good to me, I will try my best to model him.


This is exactly what I am trying to get away from. People have bought into all of these philosophies based on personal feelings. Yes, you may chose anyway you wsih, but I would like a better way to know whether or not I am making the right choice (if there is one).


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Swami]
    #3601564 - 01/09/05 02:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It's not just "personal feelings" that cause people to buy into something.

Sometimes it's based on personal experience and outlook on the world and the evidence we have around us. It's very hard for me to explain why I believe in God. But should I not believe in God simply because I don't have the hard evidence required by a skeptic?

And my belief in God doesn't hurt any one, right?

"While this sounds mystically beautiful, how does one fit in the following of people like Koresh and Jones or even Manson or Hitler? If there was no force involved, then the followers must have found something that resonated with their core for whatever reason."

The people who fit in with the following of people who were obviously mentally unsound were probably mentally unsound themselves. Comparing mentally unsound people who will go along with a mass suicide to people who believe in something benign as the existence of God or in what Shroomism believes is, well, farfetched?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Swami]
    #3601577 - 01/09/05 03:01 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Why is it that one cares if a teaching is "true"? I'm confident most agree that there is no way to judge what is "true" and what is not. Is it not good enough that it resonates with ones self (especially if there is a positive consequence)?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: daimyo]
    #3602325 - 01/09/05 07:51 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Why is it that one cares if a teaching is "true"? I'm confident most agree that there is no way to judge what is "true" and what is not. Is it not good enough that it resonates with ones self (especially if there is a positive consequence)?




and what if there are negative consequences?
and heck let's even say that since it resonates with you, you would be interpreting it as positive.. might it not be upon a less emotional examination?


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revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3602387 - 01/09/05 08:31 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I always put the "truth" being tought to the methods test. If i apply whatever "truth" is being tought to myself in my life, and i find it works for me in a positive way, and helps me to either be a better person or discover more about my conciousness, then i utilize it. But first always use discriminating wisdom and question whatever teaching seems faulty.

If somebody is spouting random BS ill call them on it!

It seems nowerdays spiritual seekers are like lambs to the slaughter, drinking any poison that happens to spout out of the mouths of supposid "Guru's" without testing the knowlege first. A kinda spiritual disease.

Anyways thats just my view!


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Offlinetrinity7
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Sinbad]
    #3602398 - 01/09/05 08:44 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I haven?t read shroomism?s thread yet, but when it comes to detecting useful teachings by whether they resonate I?d agree.
The fact that some people fall for fucked up teachers does not mean that this is a bad way to find a useful teaching. Maybe it only indicates that these people have something in them that attracts them to `bad` teaching, something that resonates with it.
So I guess if you look at what you resonate with you can learn a lot about yourself. If you stay mindful of that, you don?t have to act it out first.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: trinity7]
    #3602406 - 01/09/05 08:52 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

For me whetehr or not a teaching or teacher resonates is insignificatnt, To me what is being taught and how to realize what is being taught and put that teaching to the test and into practice is paramount. Regardless of whether i have a good feeling or vibe from a certain teacher or teaching.

This is the trap many people get caught up in, For example a person goes to meet a "teacher" this teacher is wearing satin and silk robes and he's in a room full of beautiful pictures of deitites, and he sits there on his throne and says some profound things, this person becuase of the environment and situation startes experiencing some good vibrations, this person gets so causgt up in the "good vibrations" or has a mystical experience, and whether or not the teacher is an enlightned being or a complete fraud, has now become irrelevant or secondary, that person then goes off and tells some other people about this wonderful teacher and the wonderful experiences he/she has had.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Sinbad]
    #3602538 - 01/09/05 10:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

who told you of my false shrine from which I mutter random nonsense to recruit the masses of western spiritual seekers?

:cool:

I mean...

"The giraffe has a hard time reaching the ground"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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hey good to see you posting with vigor again [Re: Swami]
    #3602561 - 01/09/05 10:14 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

knowledge and knowing is dynamic and to me seems mostly point of view dependent, as opposed to empyrical, except for some gems that we can extract that are as clear as a periodic table, as DNA, and as astronomical and geophysical measurements. Such gems become objectifiable knowledge that can be reproduceably known from any point of view.

the key in what I am saying is that each individual knows things personally. Otherwise, things like science, can be known (in a new instance) by anyone able to perform tests - regardless of cultural background or state of mind. However, science is not knowledge, it is a compendium of sharable knowing methods. Knowledge is experience based and remains personal.

I think we will eventually come to better periodic tables that do chart emotions, sensory and memory experiences, social behaviors and the like, but so far a lot of chest puffing and false starts are evident.

It will take a lot of detatchment to look at ourselves so objectively, and to prepare methods that can be shared and re-experienced.

(BTW - and I am keeping this part in brackets and hoping no-one is sensitive to it, I truly thought the 3 banana nut loafs with the kid's photos behind them was a good graphic expression for the season - multi ethnic, homey, and welcoming - if there were embedded secret meanings, at all, beneath layers and layers of symbolism it was still a decent expression)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: hey good to see you posting with vigor again [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3602577 - 01/09/05 10:22 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What are you talking about? Sometimes the things you say make no sense to me whatsoever, like your speaking a different language. What has what you just said got to do with the topic.

Of course people knowlege is personal, duh! how could it be any other way. Your talking in intelectual riddles man!


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Anonymous

Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Swami]
    #3602587 - 01/09/05 10:26 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You're making a generous assumption, which makes your premise possibly flawed:

Maybe Jones, Hitler, Manson, etc. never felt a resonance in the way Shroomism is talking about it?

I've felt this resonance myself, and it's very different from just a "feeling" of being right or thinking you're right. It's more of a strong "knowing" like a strong intuition because everything you've observed so far leads to the conclusion that this must be true. Take this example: Suppose you know a person who is very devious, sneaky, and is often in trouble with the law. A friend tells you that this person was recently arrested for shoplifting. You don't know whether this is the truth or not; you have only your friend's claim to go on until you see the arrest record. But all the things you've observed of this person leads you to the conclusion that this claim is indeed true, because you've observed them being in trouble with the law, being sneaky or underhanded, etc. So I propose that this isn't a "mystical" force so much as it's a conclusion drawn from your observations of reality.

However, even this can lead to false conclusions. Maybe your friend who related the above anecdote to you is only taking advantage of the other person's nature to spin a lie? This is certainly possible, but eventually you'll discover evidence conflicting with his story. Conversely, if this "resonance" is never refuted by conflicting evidence, then you may assume that from all other evidence that it's true. Some people feel unable to assume in this way. This is where skeptics of the materialist variety come in. And I'm not using the term materialist in a negative sense here; some skeptics just need very "hard" evidence and won't come to conclusions in this manner.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Swami]
    #3602613 - 01/09/05 10:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If there was no force involved, then the followers must have found something that resonated with their core for whatever reason.

That's a pretty big leap. Would you say that some consumers buy things they don't need because something in the thing resonates in their core?

There are reasons why people believe or want something, other than just "force" or "it resonates".

As this feeling seems to be faulty in detecting the truth in some (if not all) people, cannot we not come up with a better, more objective metric?

No I do not think we cannot come up with one :wink:

Isn't it imperative, or does most everyone believe that their judgment is superior than the masses who made poor choices?

Putting all of your faith in intuition or what you "feel" to be true is probably not a good idea. "Common sense", or whatever everyone else believes, is also not a good place to put all your faith into. You should have balance in life, between consensus reality and the things internal to your consciousness.


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BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: trendal]
    #3602631 - 01/09/05 10:41 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

truth is given in a 4 pitch noise :P


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Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: ]
    #3602640 - 01/09/05 10:44 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What youve said doesnt conflict with my view at all. Intuativly knowing that what is being said is true, is the start of the path to realization.

If some teacher is teaching and your listening and you have an intuative feeling that what is being said is true, then you should not just to leave it at that and accept it as truth!

Intuition for me is like picking up the scent of truth, one should not stop there and just accept what is being taught as truth based on that feeling, that would be foolish, rather you should be inspired to really discover and realize for yourself the truth of what is being said. If the intuition is wrong, then it will soon be dicovered as such.

A predator when picking up the scent of its prey will follow that scent and hunt its prey until it has been caught.

But if you have just a "good vibe" and you just idoly go with this feeling and think "oh this is wonderful" and get totally conditioned by that experience then this is where the term "lambs to the slaugher" comes into play. A false teacher could be very good at creating "good vibes" in his students but have no real knowlege whatsoever.

Mindfulness is essential


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Sinbad]
    #3602865 - 01/09/05 11:48 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

sinbad;
when you are a predador, you cannot conceive of another valid existence.
I have intuition too, but I do not use it for predatory tracking, I cultivate a nurturing and gardening approach.

seeds of ideas can be brought to fruition, with a little more effort than the hunter's "discover, acquire and consume" attitudes. maybe my ideas are alien to you because you want to acquire and consume and move on to the next challenge.

I was actually writing towards the topic but needed to establish my definition of knowing and metrics first (preparing the soil). in my post I did indicate that we can come up with better metrics, and what it would take to do so, i.e. detatchment and charting, and reproduceable experimentation.

you have a valid hunting terminology and framework, no wonder you run into some frustration with this area of totalities and systems which is very different than "getting fresh meat" lurking somewhere within the totality or system, and maybe it is the same too in some subtle ways. (it should not be too difficult to track down and bite into those thoughts)


Edited by redgreenvines (01/09/05 11:49 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3602914 - 01/09/05 12:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I was being metaphorical my friend. you seem to be confused and have taken my statement literally, i was merley refering to the act of seeking out the essence, the meat of the teaching, and not being content with merely intuition of what the truth is. It was a metaphor for activly seeking the truth.

An idea is just an idea, in order for an idea to "bear fruit" as you say, their has to be a method employed. Some way of realizing and getting to center of the idea. Or there is a more gradual way akin to laying the soil, planting the seed, watering the ground, and reaping the fruit.

Your ideas are illusive to me becuase they seem to lack any substance or workable methods. They seem like intellectual ideas spun around a metaphysical framework. You have completely misinterpreted what i said and have taken it as a liteteral expression of my attidue. Which was not my intention.

As you are probably aware now, i am not interested at all in aqurining totalities or systems, and am merely a seeker on the path to discovering his own true condition. Anything else in my opinion is just a play on words and is utterly useless in the pusuit of truth!


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Edited by Sinbad (01/09/05 12:04 PM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: Swami]
    #3603003 - 01/09/05 12:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

As this feeling seems to be faulty in detecting the truth in some (if not all) people, cannot we come up with a better, more objective metric?

Just because people made poor choices based on their "faulty feeling" doesn't make it a lie. Truth is relative to the observer of the truth. This makes it SUBJECTIVE and NOT OBJECTIVE. There can not be a "Truth-O-Meter" as each machine would require customization.

Even "universal truths" or concept of "reasonable man" in law are very subjective. Consider the age of consent laws and sexual habits of different countries and cultures throughout the world. You can see how the concept of "reasonable" in the "reasonable man" example covers a lot of ground.

Back to the people who had "faulty feelings". These same people probably had "faulty logic". To leave with Jones and head to Africa, to stay with Koresh and a cache of weapons when the FBI loomed outside, was illogical. Those people had a screw loose in both their conscious and subconscious mind. Does this mean EVERYONE should doubt their subconscious feelings, intuitions, or emotions? I think not.

The key is to open up to your subconscious, to smell the odors around you, to hear the sounds. Embrace that odor, to let it linger and discover it's true essence. Run it through the conscious logic and analysis and see if the odor is nectar or Nutrasweet? Absolutely. That's the other half of your mind, you use that too.

Its when we discount the subconscious or try to suppress it and rely totally on logic and objectivity that we lose half of our mental capability. Jiggy might argue more, I might argue less, you might argue no big loss. And, this is not to say that we can't be objective for clearly objective things, like eating cheeseburgers, which constitutes probably 80% or more of our daily routine.

I contend that even in everyday situations, one can listen to one's subconscious and filter that through one's consciousness. Your mind works that way, why not use it? Open your "mental ears" to the music around you. It's all not just noise. Just as in music, one can fine tune one's ability to recognize what is in tune, and what is out of tune. Another example of a personal "Truth-O-Meter". Some people sing so out of tune it is painful. They probably wouldn't begin to recognize a note sung by others as being in or out of tune. Other people have "perfect pitch" and can recognize immediately whether a note is in or out of tune. The difference? Some is genetic, some is experience, and some is attention. Likewise in our ability to use the subconscious mind effectively, some of it is our mind, some is our learning, and some is our attention, awareness, and trust in those feelings. Or, the lack thereof.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (01/09/05 12:41 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Teachings that Ring True [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3603040 - 01/09/05 12:44 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Very well said indeed, good job! If you dont have the trust to follow your intuition then its very difficult to follow any path you choose in life.

Run it through your personal truth-o-meter! loveley :smile:


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