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OfflineJCoke
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the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation?
    #5872999 - 07/18/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Paul says this in the letter to the church in corinthians:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.

is there any thing wrong with Pauls idea of Gods plan?


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


Edited by JCoke (07/18/06 10:57 AM)


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Offlineleery11
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: JCoke]
    #5873038 - 07/18/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yes.

How does he expect us to discern him from the other Gods and not Gods?
All sorts of things can be rationalized. The plan is fine if it extends to even those who do not believe. Otherwise, then what?

The narrow and exclusive nature of this faith works, but not in a world where we have access to all ideas.

otherwise it's like a toddler saying I'm right! I'm right! I am the best! I am so great! You are not! You are not! I'm better than you! You are wrong!

well sure Christ is the only way. But the problem is, Islam is the only way, and Judaism is the only way, too. And many more.

If God went to such lengths to save all men, why didn't he go to great lengths to make sure that all men have access to the RIGHT teaching, and are not confused? Things down here aren't so easy to discern as they may be "up there" to us it really is a gamble. When we were deliberately lead away from his religion because of it's corruptions, it's FOLLOWERS or it's just general confusing nature....

umm... God, whatcha doing up there?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (07/18/06 11:15 AM)


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OfflineTaylorWakingUp
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5877361 - 07/19/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Here's my view on God and Jesus.

Jesus was enlightened. Plain and simple. He was a regular, normal human being, just enlightened. Like the Buddhas.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5878339 - 07/19/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
Yes.

How does he expect us to discern him from the other Gods and not Gods?
All sorts of things can be rationalized. The plan is fine if it extends to even those who do not believe. Otherwise, then what?

The narrow and exclusive nature of this faith works, but not in a world where we have access to all ideas.

otherwise it's like a toddler saying I'm right! I'm right! I am the best! I am so great! You are not! You are not! I'm better than you! You are wrong!

well sure Christ is the only way. But the problem is, Islam is the only way, and Judaism is the only way, too. And many more.

If God went to such lengths to save all men, why didn't he go to great lengths to make sure that all men have access to the RIGHT teaching, and are not confused? Things down here aren't so easy to discern as they may be "up there" to us it really is a gamble. When we were deliberately lead away from his religion because of it's corruptions, it's FOLLOWERS or it's just general confusing nature....

umm... God, whatcha doing up there?




God always wanted people to earn their light, and not just recieve it. Did god send angels to every part of the world to preach? No. He send a couple of poor people riding mules and dying of hunger and heat.
And even those few men managed to convert a large portion of the world into christianity.
Islam came after christianity, so it is quite possible that Jesus expected everyone to accept Islam, as he himself said that another prophet will come to preach after him, plus Islam is 90% compatible with christianity, therefore he who accepts one possibly gets points on the other one, both religions worship the same god at least, the one god, creator of men and earth.
And as for Judaism, well christianity is updated Judaism, so you can think of Judaism as a cripled version of christianity.
In that way, all 3 religions up there are compatible and are in fact one religion.

Plus, consider that Paul was short and bald, and possibly a frustrated man.
There is one place where he says that nature shows us that men are not supose to wear long hair. By nature he ment that only men lose their hair (he was bald himself), which is a funny way of expressing his frustration about not having hair. That place in the Bible alone makes me think about how credible he was in his references to Jesus.
I think these writings of Paul contain the earliest signs of corruption of teachings of Jesus.

Though I don't doubt in the Jesusness of the words you quoted in this thread


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5878364 - 07/19/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Also, if you think that the name Alah suggestes that its a different god from christian god, consider that the bible has at least 5 words used to refer to god and think of all the international words used for god within christianity.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineleery11
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5878388 - 07/19/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"so it is quite possible that Jesus expected everyone to accept Islam, as he himself said that another prophet will come to preach after him, plus Islam is 90% compatible with christianity, "
do you have a quote?

and yes I think Allah = the same thing.

But forget those, what about Buddhism and Taoism and all other faiths?
Perhaps some of the prophets only partially penetrated God, and had a lot still filtered by their subconscious mind, and the Buddhist got all the way through all the illusions and saw "ahhh.... just emptiness and stillness.... ultimate freedom. no Gods or deities to worship, this is beyond them"


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (07/19/06 04:48 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5878468 - 07/19/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I can't quote Koran really, but It is said there that Jesus was a prophed of Alah, this sort of merges these two religions in one sentance. Islam accepts that Jewish god and Alah are the same thing, it's just that a lot of christians and a lot of muslims won't hear that, but it's in muslim scriptures, and as for christianity, here:

“But I tell you the truth. It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.”

Catholics believe Counselor is the "holly spirit", but holly spirit came as Jesus was still down there

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. "

As for Budhism and Hinduism, well,
I think there are a lot of beings in the "heavens", some people called all of them gods, some got talking visitors, like Jesus, some never got any word from heavens, there is the diversity...
I think what Hinduists did is take every celestial being they have encountered (like angles, demons and such) and proclaimed them gods and semigods.


I think all of these religions have a considerable does of misunderstanding in them, and some who had less contact with these beings wondered off into more confused waters.

And Budhism comes from the same source, obviously because it's morality is similar to that of other religions, exept that the cultural environment shaped it into something unique, just as christianity in Britain is so far away from that in aincient Rome.

As for the "right" way, there is no right way, there are many ways each with their offerings. all of these gods offer something to man. Azazel offered sexual pleasure, power, wealth etc.
Jesus offered eternal life.

Though I think the "right" way might the one closest to the creator of humans, and that way which brings balance to all human internal "systems".
You'll know when you are on the right path when your body and spirit become reborn and healed compleatly.
I think only the creator of human life can advise for such balance, just as best advice on handling a computer comes from the manufacturers manual. Sure you can overclock on your own, but it can end up fried and in smoke. It's the same with religion.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5878476 - 07/19/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

budism and taoism aren't religions why?

They maybe under technical definition, but they don't require faith in following them, their man made, they give compared examples to follow in their theology, just like a scifi novel,

I like Frank Herberts Dune, I like his 3rd book children of dune, because he gets deep within his theology, Frank Herbert was a great philospher and great author, but I don't treat his philosphy and his theology that he created as a true respresentation of reality

some might, I've heard cults being formed under these scific novels, because their imagination of different worlds can create different concepts that actually makes sense within its given context, so people wonder, did Frank Herbert stumble on something, NO, its still just imagination and Frank himself doesn't consider he's writings as anything more,

Some people get carried away with the different stages of Budism for example, these stages are more or less models to learn concepts that the Budha is trying to teach, but the bad thing about this form of teaching is people take them as literal representations, it makes sense but only in its given context to explain the end of suffering,

Budha was an influential and wise teacher but that is all he claims to be, do I call anybody elses work a religion, I guess in a sense, but really to me it doesn't claim the absolute, its arbitray, its more or less a tool,

so you can rule those out as well


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5878661 - 07/19/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The Qur'an holds that Christians "overly" praise Jesus. While this might be true in the sense that alot of Christians are unable to seperate the man Jesus from the Mystical Body of Christ, Islam also misinterprets the doctrine of trinity, often to the point where it confuses the Holy Spirit with Mary/Miriam. I'm not sure how this happened historically. Islamic mystics have long revered Jesus (sometimes even more so than Muhammad) as the "Prophet of the Inner Life", and the wardrobe of Sufis was often a mimic of the long wool robes Jesus was said to wear (hence the name Sufis, deriving from "Soof" - wool). My disagreement here is that most Muslim mystics believe in a balance between the esoteric and exoteric, spirit and law, secret knowledge and revelation. I personally regard the exoteric, legalistic and non-allegorical remnants of religious and spiritual ideas to be highly disposable. My favorite of Islamic mystics is Husayn Mansur al-Hallaj, who unlike most historical Sufis, rejected orthodoxy as incompatible with Universal Truth. He was subsequently killed for heresy, crucified just like his hero, Jesus of Nazareth.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: Basilides]
    #5878819 - 07/19/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The trinity is just another churchy idea, which is never clearly mentioned in the Bible. There are many concepts in the Bible, and catholics just took 3 that sounded most important and made a trinity out of them, and then they call themselfs monotheists.

Islam is great, but I just can't understand that part about beating women, It just seems so out of place, I can't figure out what to make of that. How does that fit into any religion? That an Jihad, the holly war.

You know, I'm one of the few people (that I know) that find Bible logical. And it's not because I was raised christian and learned to think like that. No, I wasn't, nobody in my family is a genuine christian, and I don't know anyone that takes it seriously either (though most people over here consider themselfs catholics). I always believed in science and logic, and when I was a child I didn't believe a word of the old testament, because just didn't make sense. But then one day I sorted some thing in my head, and it just all fell down ito place, everything started making perfect sense. Suddenly christianity was compatible with every other religion, new and old testaments became perfectly compatible and consistant, religion became consistant with science etc.
It just all works for me, that's why I believe in it.
But beating women is something that doesn't make sense as much as Pauls hair-obsession.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineleery11
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5878975 - 07/19/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well i dunno about beating women in Islam but what about all the instances of God allowing others to commit acts of extreme war and genocide, rapes and pillages, and dashing children upon rocks, etc, in the OT in addition to being stoned (not the good way) for doing simple things such as working on the Sabbath?

i think you need the right context before you can make assumptions about jihad, the crusades, or any negative thing in any religion.

what I like about Buddhism is it doesn't have that stuff....... it isn't so weighted down with (wait... what's the point of this... how is this relevant?) it's just some core ideas.

then there are tons of sutras though, but they are pretty elegant and applicable as for the ones i've read.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5879020 - 07/19/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, all the stoning, food separation and all was kind of canceled when Jesus came, so the Judaism has been updated and fixed. Jesus never suggested violence of any kind.
Neither did Jehowah directly say that people should be killed or stoned. My guess is Jehowah left Abraham and other folks to keep order as they best know, but Jehowah never said anyone should be killed or hurt. He did say a man should not kill a man.
All the violence between people in Judaism and christianity came from man, not someone sent from Jehowah or Jehowah himself.
But in Islam, Mohamed was supose to be the same thing as Jesus, yet he did suggest violence


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: JCoke]
    #5879048 - 07/19/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I and II Corinthians is always accepted by theologians as being actually written by the 1st century tentmaker known as Saul/Paul. My take on Paul is perhaps best expressed by authors Freke and Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries under chapter 8: 'Was Paul a Gnostic.' Under subheading 'The Genuine Paul' on pages 160-161 they write:

Who is the genuine Paul? Could he have been a Gnostic, as the Gnostics claimed?...[M]odern scholars now regard many of the letters attributed to Paul as forgeries. Of the 13 New testament letters, only seven are now accepted as largely authentic.

...[T]he so-called "Pastoral" letters to Timothy and Titus are universally regarded as fakes. Computer studies have confirmed that the author of the Pastorals is definately not the author of the letters to the Galatians, Romans, and Corinthians, which are accepted as genuinely by Paul....

This is important, as it is only in the Pastorals that Paul is anti-Gnostic. Unlike the genuine Pauline letters, the Pastorals present him as an organizer of the Church, a mainstay of Church discipline, and the unswerving antagonist of all heretics. He is made to condemn Gnostic myths as "unhallowed old wives' tales" and to recommend his followers "not to meddle with the teachings and not to waste time on endless mythologies and geneologies, which lead to empty speculations." Obviously by the end of the second century the view of Paul as a Gnostic teacher was a sufficient threat to motivate someone to create an indisputably Literalist Paul in response....

He particularly attacks "Hymenaeus and Philetus," two Gnostic teachers who have "wandered afield from the truth" and are teaching the Gnostic doctrine that "our resurrection has already occurred"; although in his genuine letters Paul claims to be already "resurrected" himself! And despite the fact that there was a widespread tradition that Paul traveled with a woman who baptized, he is also made to attack the Gnostic practice of treating women as equal to men:
A woman should quietly receive instruction in complete obedience. I will not allow a woman to be a teacher nor act superior to a man.

At the end of the second century, then, Paul is portrayed by Literalist Christians as anti-Gnostic and authoritarian. This has been assumed to be historically accurate, but is actually only the perspective of these Literalist Christians.

On page 151 of the same book, it reads:

Paul wrote his letters before 70 CE. So, they actually predate all of the gospels. They are the earliest existing Christian documents and some of them are basically genuine. At last we have something substantial!

It is a completely remarkable fact, however, that Paul says nothing at all about the historical Jesus! He is concerned only with the crucified and resurrected Christ, whose importance is entirely mystical. Paul makes it clear that he never met a historical Jesus. He writes: "Neither did I receive the Gospel from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention Jerusalem or Pilate either. Indeed...he declares that Jesus was crucified at the instigation of the "Archons" or "rulers of the age" - demonic powers that are talked of by the Gnostics!

So to answer your question, it rather depends on how you read and interpret the self-same words of Paul's genuine letters. Princeton scholar Elaine Pagels wrote a book entitled The Gnostic Paul which shows how both Literalist and Gnostic schools interpreted Paul's writings. The Literalist have always depicted the writings as being historical - including future events of resurrection, apocalypse, judgement, etc. The Gnostics recognized the mythological nature of the same writings and interpreted them as symbols to be experienced and realized inwardly with the goal being personal transformation. I, for one, find pretty much everything to be "wrong" with the Literalist interpretation of Paul's doctrine of 'vicarious sacrifice' (Jesus was the divine 'scapegoat' and died for our sins). That the battle against evil was somehow already won between the cross and the empty tomb only means something to me if these events are seen as psychospiritual movements within my own being. They have no validity to me if taken as historical events and the mythological flavor of the stories is unavoidable. Clearly the world is rife with evil. Any other view has no basis in reality and is just Orwellian "double-think."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5879114 - 07/19/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Find one place in the bible where paul refers to jesus. It doesn't exist. Paul refers to 'christ' and 'the cross', but never to a physical jesus. Bear in mind, the numerological number for the name 'christ' is 365, which is no accident, considering the ancients were sun worshippers. The pauline epistles are the earliest books that the council of nice allowed to go into the canon, and the reason was logistic. The Roman Empire was pagan, and if they were going to convert the people over to christianity, it would have to keep some of its pagan roots.

The reason is simple. Early christianity was clearly pagan as was paul. It's no accident that there were 12 apostles. Nor is it any accident that the early disciples were all fishermen. Nor is it an accident that christ was the 'lamb for sinners slain'. Nor is it an accident that christ rose from the dead on the 'third day'. I could go on and on, but that will suffice.

There were, and are 12 signs in the zodiac. For 2160 years prior to the beginning of this era, the sun was in the sign of the Ram. During this time, the jewish religion became prominent. The jews sprinkled blood from a ram onto doorposts to keep god from killing their first born. They sacrificed lambs, etc. Christ became the 'lamb for sinners slain' to indicate the end of the jewish religion and the beginning of the christian era.

After the sign of the ram, which is the 11th sign of the zodiac, comes pisces, the 12th and last sign. It was natural to pagans in that era to believe that at the end of the 12th sign, the world would end.

In addition, the ancient pagans not only considered the sign the sun was shining into, but the sign opposite it that the sun was shining through. Opposite pisces is virgo, the virgin. The symbol for virgo always has her holding either five loaves of bread or five stalks of grain. It is no accident therefore that christ fed the multitude with two fish(the sign of pisces) and five loaves, the symbol for the virgin of which he was 'born', and had 12 baskets left over. Clearly christ was 'feeding' the multitude with knowledge.

The whole business of 'salvation' came along much later. The pauline epistles make no mention of christ's death on the cross, because that part of the dogma hadn't been conceived yet. It would be at least 100 years after the death of paul before the 'heresy' of the physical death on the cross would begin to creep into christianity and it was still considered a heresy for another 100 years after that, and not fully integrated into church doctrine until the council of nicea.

I consider the idea of human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins a barbaric and shameful doctrine. If the god of the christians were truly a god, he/she/it could simply say 'I forgive you for being the way I made you'. The very idea that people are responsible for being the way god made them, and require a blood sacrifice to forgive them from the bad creation is evil.

Christianity today is not even a remote shadow of its ancient roots. The bible, like all ancient texts, was written in an apocryphal style and they were never intended to be taken literally. They were stories used to tell a greater story. The 'milk' paul refers to in corinthians is the actual words of the books(scrolls). The 'meat' is the meaning of those words, which paul tells the church they were not ready for yet. Bear in mind, I refer to the religious scrolls that were circulating at the time, not the 'bible' which did not yet exist, but which was written in the same writing style.

I apologize for writing a book here. I used to be a preacher, but one sunday morning during my sermon, I had an 'experience' where I suddenly realized I didn't believe a darn word of what I was saying. I stopped my sermon and walked out of the church, never to return. I did however, go on a lifetime quest for spiritual identity and knowledge, which continues to this day. I truly aplogize if I have offended anyone's beliefs. It was not my intention at all. I seek knowledge, and try to pass along the same whenever I can. Peace.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5879135 - 07/19/06 08:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Nice writeup mark. Note that we were typing at the same time so I'm not replying to you. Interesting references there. I'll have to check them out.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5879752 - 07/19/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

OKely-Dokely.


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OfflineDimmy
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5879921 - 07/20/06 12:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It bothers me how people who seem not to be familiar with Jewish belief often talk as if they are.

Quote:

leery11 said:


well sure Christ is the only way. But the problem is, Islam is the only way, and Judaism is the only way, too. And many more.






Yes, in Christianity Christ is the only way and, in Islam Muhammad's doctrine is the only way. This is not so in Judaism. Judaism is the way for JEWS. everything in the Tanach (the written and oral Torah) is specifically meant for Jews. I got news, you know the Ten commandments? well thats only for Jews too. The rest of the world was given the seven Noahide laws. Judaism is the way for Jews but, it also teaches that other people have their own way to connect to god. Honestly Judaism very rarely deals with non Jewish issues. Judaism is the only great western religion that is against evangelization specifically for this reason. Its kinda like our family does stuff like this... but your family can do things however you please, we aren't gonna try to convince you of anything.

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
And as for Judaism, well christianity is updated Judaism, so you can think of Judaism as a cripled version of christianity.
In that way, all 3 religions up there are compatible and are in fact one religion.






i take offense to this. Christianity an updated Judaism? Judaism a crippled Christianity? who do you think you are to make such statements?

Judaism did just fine for two thousand years before Christ came along. lets not forget that Christianity is based on Judaism. Jesus himself being a practicing jew till the day he died.
Now lets consider how authentic Judaism is completely incompatible with modern Christian doctrine. i say modern because i dont know what Jesus himself said, only what was written decades after his death and canonized centuries later.
the Torah very plainly says that the Torah will never change, nothing can be added or taken away. it goes on to add, that Jews may never follow a leader who tries to modify the Torah in any way.
now lets consider some other points. Christians will argue that their claims about Jesus are support by the Tanach. This is simply not the case.
consider this:
"God is not a man, that he should lie..." Numbers 23:19
"Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation." Psalm 146:3

All the evidence that Christan's use to support their claims is founded from misquotations, made up verses, mistranslations, and taking things out of context.

If any one would like specific examples, i can share later but to do so now would make my already lengthy post too drawn out.

i guess my point is (relating back to the original post) that Paul's ideas of gods plan is fundamentally flawed, if for no other reason than it is based on Christianity and from a Christian outlook. This is because if a house is dramatically skewed off its foundation, then the house itself is of little strength.
Just as Christianity (the house) is often at direct conflict with Judaism (the foundation). they can't both be right. So either Judaism is faulty or Christianity is, and if its Judaism- then Christianity can't still be right because it would be based on a cracked foundation.

*side note, for the sake of this argument, my thoughts are based on a western judaeo/christain theological perspective. Though, interestingly enough when one learns about the deeper mystical aspects of Judaism, it is often similar with Taoist and Buddhist philosophy.


--------------------
:goose:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: JCoke]
    #5880035 - 07/20/06 12:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."




Ressentiment at its best.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Registered: 02/01/05
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Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: Dimmy]
    #5880479 - 07/20/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well It's simple. Jews believed that a messiah will come, but they didn't believe it was Jesus, 2000 years passed and they didn't have their messiah, so where is he?
Obviously modern Jews are stuck back there. Because christianity is a Jewish phenomenon.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5880685 - 07/20/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

yeah i saw this in the "naked truth" video in google video.

it's quite curious.
Quote:

Dimmy said:
It bothers me how people who seem not to be familiar with Jewish belief often talk as if they are.

Yes, in Christianity Christ is the only way and, in Islam Muhammad's doctrine is the only way. This is not so in Judaism. Judaism is the way for JEWS. everything in the Tanach (the written and oral Torah) is specifically meant for Jews. I got news, you know the Ten commandments? well thats only for Jews too. The rest of the world was given the seven Noahide laws. Judaism is the way for Jews but, it also teaches that other people have their own way to connect to god. Honestly Judaism very rarely deals with non Jewish issues. Judaism is the only great western religion that is against evangelization specifically for this reason. Its kinda like our family does stuff like this... but your family can do things however you please, we aren't gonna try to convince you of anything.




ahh thanks for the education.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5881405 - 07/20/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think I believe in Jesus and was just being stubborn about religious authority, focusing too much on the wrongdoings.

it's almost like a Christian-Buddhist kind of thing, because to me it's about Jesus as the "savior" and/or teacher, and then the eightfold path and the noble truths as more practical teachings. Probably things Jesus would have agreed with, but perhaps the Bible authors went a little too simple for the masses.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineDimmy
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 User Gallery

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 903
Loc: Georgia
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5881599 - 07/20/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Well It's simple. Jews believed that a messiah will come, but they didn't believe it was Jesus, 2000 years passed and they didn't have their messiah, so where is he?
Obviously modern Jews are stuck back there. Because christianity is a Jewish phenomenon.





I dont get your point. Two thousand years passed before Jesus was even born, so whats another two thousand for the chosen people? They believe the messiah will still come but, hasn't yet.

you know there are a couple of things the messiah has to accomplish to be considered the messiah- as prophesied in the Torah. One of which is world peace. I havent seen the advent of world peace since jesus.

"Obviously modern Jews are stuck back there. Because christianity is a Jewish phenomenon."
well honestly, if you really wanna hardball it, any jew to follow jesus would be considered a heretic. No where in the Torah does it say the massiah is the son of god or that he's even a spiritual figure. The jewish messiah is more of a political world leader than a new patriarch. And honestly, i consider christianity as close to modern day idole worship as you can get.


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:goose:


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