Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Jesus' teachings were very harmful
    #7812950 - 12/30/07 09:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Jesus taught us that we humans can be saved. Jesus taught us that we humans NEED to seek salvation. Jesus taught us that if we humans don't seek salvation then we are doomed.

We don't need salvation. We didn't need salvation for hundreds of thousands of years. Maybe our culture does, but we as a species do not. Any teaching that says we as a species need salvation is incredibly destructive and should be forbidden.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7812963 - 12/30/07 09:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

First of all you don't know if it was Jesus who said all those things.
Second of all, I think that they originally had other meanings and aims to them and that "salvation" and the like are concepts invented by the church.
It is always us (humans) who delude ourselves and confuse our minds.
Thinking it was Jesus (son of god and therefore someone with a higher power than us) is deeply wrong and can trigger psychosis.
Let's remain lucid and keep in mind that we're the only ones responsible for our fuck ups. :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7812974 - 12/30/07 09:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That's exactly what I'm saying. We're responsible for our fuck ups not because we are flawed and need salvation. Merely because we are responsible for our fuckups.

Salvationist religions (all of them, including Buddhism) warp our minds telling us that "it's ok that we fuck up, we can't help it. It's human nature", when in reality it's not. We can do better. It's a culture failure not a species failure.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7812994 - 12/30/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes but what you seem to omit is that the culture IS produced by the species.
HUMANS produce the social structure.
How do you that it's not human nature to fuck up?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813024 - 12/30/07 10:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

freddurgan said:
Jesus taught us that we humans can be saved. Jesus taught us that we humans NEED to seek salvation. Jesus taught us that if we humans don't seek salvation then we are doomed.

We don't need salvation. We didn't need salvation for hundreds of thousands of years. Maybe our culture does, but we as a species do not. Any teaching that says we as a species need salvation is incredibly destructive and should be forbidden.



When you say "saved" what do you think this means? Saved from what? Why does one need "saving"?

The Christian answer is someone is saved from the wrath of God. God hates sin, all are sinners, sinners will be eternally punished under God's wrath.

Look at the history of Man with countless wars and violence. Doesn't this prove Man's nature is naturally wicked?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: fivepointer]
    #7813180 - 12/30/07 11:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

When you say "saved" what do you think this means? Saved from what? Why does one need "saving"?

The Christian answer is someone is saved from the wrath of God. God hates sin, all are sinners, sinners will be eternally punished under God's wrath.




Your god can kiss my butt. :smirk:

Quote:

Look at the history of Man with countless wars and violence. Doesn't this prove Man's nature is naturally wicked?




Wicked compared to what?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemarz13
Unseen
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Arizona
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813318 - 12/30/07 11:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What about justice? This world and its people are so fuck up. Who has the last word? People are accountable for their actions. Good and bad.

You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.

I find out that the closer the world gets to judgment the more people try to avoid it by spreading lies. Whether one want to admit it or not each person will be judged. Even these crazy religious groups. They do more harm than good.

You need to remember that your just a man. There are way bigger things in the universe that exist. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them does not make them void. It just makes you lost.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813415 - 12/30/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Yes but what you seem to omit is that the culture IS produced by the species.
HUMANS produce the social structure.
How do you that it's not human nature to fuck up?




That's where you're wrong. Humans produced different cultures for millions of years. This one particular culture, centered around a myth that it's the "one" way for people to live, is just that; one culture. It's a culture that spread out of control. This culture we live in is not inevitable. It is not the destiny of humans. It was and still is a choice. We as humanity lived differently for millions (loosely humanity) or hundreds of thousands (homo sapiens sapiens) of years.

It's a choice. We just all forgot that it is.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813514 - 12/30/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That's where you're wrong. Humans produced different cultures for millions of years.




Ok, so what's your point here?
Yes, humans produced different cultures, ALL of them according to HUMAN NATURE. That unless you're speaking of some kind of alien conspiracy which shadow guided us according to their nature. :rolleyes: And EVEN SO... just for the sake of the argument, if we followed and behaved accordingly it is because it is related to who we are.
With other words you can't make a frog bark. :lol:
We only do things which resonate with aspects of our nature.

Quote:

This one particular culture, centered around a myth that it's the "one" way for people to live, is just that; one culture.




This one meaning which?
Humans DO have the right and possibility to choose.
Those who consider that this (whatever you're talking about) is the only way to live, have these beliefs because of their choices.

Quote:

It's a culture that spread out of control.




As opposed to which culture? :smirk:
No matter how you twist it, it is in human nature to control. It resides in the nature of being alive. The simple fact that we choose between two types of foods is because we wish to control the quality of what we eat/drink/breathe.
Perhaps you want to say that other cultures don't seem so desperate. This is something else and if you wanted to say that, then I agree with you up to a certain point which can be debatable but it is not of a direct concern for this topic.
Self improvement seems to be in human nature too.
I think that your perception is that you can't have both.
What if it is in human nature to both fuck up AND self improve? :shocked: And so much more!?
Can YOU conceive what are the implications of that?  :hotidea:

Quote:

This culture we live in is not inevitable. It is not the destiny of humans.




And what is the destiny of humans? Do you believe that humans have a destiny?
I don't :hehehe:
I think you're confusing human nature with destiny.
And making use of a logical deduction here (correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be pretty much convinced that it is not in human nature to fuck up, whilst it is in human nature to choose. So automatically you stated that it is in our destiny to choose:

Quote:

It was and still is a choice.




Hmmm :strokebeard:

Quote:

We as humanity lived differently for millions (loosely humanity) or hundreds of thousands (homo sapiens sapiens) of years.




And?... :tongue:

Quote:

It's a choice. We just all forgot that it is.




Yeah everything is a choice.
A possible chosen outcome from a multitude of them.
ALL of them according to our nature.
Unless you have other explanation such as....... (please fill in the blanks)  :thanx:
How do you determine, trough what measurements and appreciations, what IS in human nature and what IS NOT in human nature?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: marz13]
    #7813565 - 12/30/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What about justice? This world and its people are so fuck up. Who has the last word? People are accountable for their actions. Good and bad.




What about justice? :shrug:
How do you REALLY determine what's just?
By watching TV? :smirk:
By reading a law book? :strokebeard:
One thing I agree with what you said, that is people are responsible for their actions.

Quote:

You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.




And by whom was the man created may I know? :sherlock:
And which facts determined you to state that we are not animals? Perhaps we are trees? :grin:
Also you said that animals :rolleyes: kill to eat and we kill to have power. This means that there is a difference between us and them. Then why did you continue to say that we are not animals since you already emphasized a difference and HOW you entire rant was an answer to my question, since you compared us with animals, which using your logic can't be compared to us? :lol:

Quote:

I find out that the closer the world gets to judgment the more people try to avoid it by spreading lies. Whether one want to admit it or not each person will be judged. Even these crazy religious groups. They do more harm than good.




How did you find that out? :satansmoking:

Quote:

You need to remember that your just a man. There are way bigger things in the universe that exist. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them does not make them void. It just makes you lost.




And what are we talking about here? I mean what are YOU talking around here and what gave you the impression that I would not acknowledge the fact that this Universe might have "bigger" things in it and what does it have to do with this discussion.
Please clarify.
Also please pay attention because there is a reply to option and next time you reply to me, make sure you select that option.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813593 - 12/30/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Was this moved from P+S?

Religious debates are no longer allowed in M+P.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813614 - 12/30/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Jesus did his best:lol: Who even knows if he said all that stuff? Religion in general IMO is immature and designed as a distraction and a power grab more than anything else.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemarz13
Unseen
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Arizona
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813689 - 12/30/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How can I plant a seed that gives life when the soil is hard as a rock and contains no nutrients?

Wisdom is a find more precious than gold. Once you have here you wont want to let her go. 

I have spent many years seeking, questioning and listening. Most people just question but refuse to listen.

I belong to a holy tribe. The knowledge that I share has been past down for thousands of years. This holy tribe gathers in Spirit, not in flesh. The knowledge comes from the Spirit and NOT from the mouth of man.

May you find mercy and grace in on your journey.

Have a nice day. :flowers:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: marz13]
    #7813706 - 12/30/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

And this is how you (elegantly) avoided all my questions. :lol:
Have a nice day too


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813711 - 12/30/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hey he's holy. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Icelander]
    #7813713 - 12/30/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

One can't argue with that :bow:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813718 - 12/30/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Jesus was great, it was the 13 other bastards that fucked everything up.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAnarleaf
Teotihualto
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 156
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: marz13]
    #7813722 - 12/30/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There is no universal social standard, in some situations killing is justified and/or commemorated. Your idea of good and bad is not universal, therefore it all depends on society's standards.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: xFrockx]
    #7813732 - 12/30/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Jesus was great, it was the 13 other bastards that fucked everything up.




I always told Jesus he was too good for them  :shake:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7813772 - 12/30/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

That's where you're wrong. Humans produced different cultures for millions of years.




Ok, so what's your point here?
Yes, humans produced different cultures, ALL of them according to HUMAN NATURE. That unless you're speaking of some kind of alien conspiracy which shadow guided us according to their nature. :rolleyes: And EVEN SO... just for the sake of the argument, if we followed and behaved accordingly it is because it is related to who we are.
With other words you can't make a frog bark. :lol:
We only do things which resonate with aspects of our nature.

Quote:

This one particular culture, centered around a myth that it's the "one" way for people to live, is just that; one culture.




This one meaning which?
Humans DO have the right and possibility to choose.
Those who consider that this (whatever you're talking about) is the only way to live, have these beliefs because of their choices.

Quote:

It's a culture that spread out of control.




As opposed to which culture? :smirk:
No matter how you twist it, it is in human nature to control. It resides in the nature of being alive. The simple fact that we choose between two types of foods is because we wish to control the quality of what we eat/drink/breathe.
Perhaps you want to say that other cultures don't seem so desperate. This is something else and if you wanted to say that, then I agree with you up to a certain point which can be debatable but it is not of a direct concern for this topic.
Self improvement seems to be in human nature too.
I think that your perception is that you can't have both.
What if it is in human nature to both fuck up AND self improve? :shocked: And so much more!?
Can YOU conceive what are the implications of that?  :hotidea:

Quote:

This culture we live in is not inevitable. It is not the destiny of humans.




And what is the destiny of humans? Do you believe that humans have a destiny?
I don't :hehehe:
I think you're confusing human nature with destiny.
And making use of a logical deduction here (correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be pretty much convinced that it is not in human nature to fuck up, whilst it is in human nature to choose. So automatically you stated that it is in our destiny to choose:

Quote:

It was and still is a choice.




Hmmm :strokebeard:

Quote:

We as humanity lived differently for millions (loosely humanity) or hundreds of thousands (homo sapiens sapiens) of years.




And?... :tongue:

Quote:

It's a choice. We just all forgot that it is.




Yeah everything is a choice.
A possible chosen outcome from a multitude of them.
ALL of them according to our nature.
Unless you have other explanation such as....... (please fill in the blanks)  :thanx:
How do you determine, trough what measurements and appreciations, what IS in human nature and what IS NOT in human nature?





You asked me what culture I'm talking about. I'm talking about a culture that says to itself "the world was made for man and man must conquer and rule it". I'm talking about a culture centered on an extremely labor intensive form of agriculture. This labor intensive agricultural system allowed massive surpluses, which allowed for huge population growth.

Before I go on I want to stress that there is nothing wrong with this style of agriculture. Any style of living is fine. There is no one right way for people to live. Different cultures had a huge variety of ways to live off the land, all ranging from pure hunting/gathering to pure agriculture. This one hit the extreme of pure agriculture.

What made this (our) culture unique and dangerous is that it put the idea into our heads that this is how man was meant to live. The power we had over the environment, which we gained at great cost, seemed only natural to us that this is how we should live. We have complete control over our food supply and so obviously (to them and thus us since we are the same culture) this is how we were meant to live. This is our destiny.

That vision of mankind aided by their style of agriculture is the culture I'm talking about. That culture is everywhere, both east and west. It is the vision that the world is meant for us and that we need to conquer it. It is the vision that we KNOW how to live and others do not.

In this way diversity has been crushed. There is now only one way to live in this world. Our population is out of control and we work everyday to supply food for it. This only makes our population grow bigger. Give a population more food than it needs and it will get bigger - every time. It's the most clearly established fact in all of ecology.

I digress. The point is that our culture self-perpetuated itself. It grew and it grew and it conquered and it conquered. It grew due to it's labor intensive agricultural style (which means population will grow, no matter what) and it spread because they (we) knew we were right. It only felt natural.

We as a culture decided this was the one way to live. We made that choice. It doesn't mean it was the correct choice. It also doesn't mean that we are flawed for making that choice. It was a bad choice and it is being self-corrected just like any other unstable biological strategy.

So where does Jesus come in? Jesus, and all the salvationist religions (all of the religions in the world) only arose because of our culture. The crushing lack of real diversity in lifestyles and the population explosion has created a world filled with problems. They don't remember that it was ever different so they believed that this is just -how it is-. They believe that this, our culture, IS humanity. They don't understand that this, our culture, is just that. Our culture. It is the culture of man trying to take over the world. Only that.

That's the key - people don't remember that it was and can be different. Everyone assumed that mankind started 10,000 years ago as totalitarian agriculturist civilization builders. Anything before that is regarded as "pre"-history, despite the fact that it was homo sapiens sapiens at the helm. The other 190,000 years are, for some reason, disregarded. They didn't live like us so they can't be humanity. Why not? Why is our last 10,000 years the ONLY right way to live?

Jesus taught us we needed saving. As did the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. They all teach salvation because we felt we needed it. Things weren't working and nobody remembered a time when things did work. Those times existed for 190,000 years at least.  Millions more for our earlier homo ancestors. They worked that way for so long because they worked! That sounds circular but it isn't. There is no right or wrong for living. There is only what works. If it works it will continue. What worked continued for hundreds of thousands of years and only we, our culture, decided to take it upon ourselves to tell others how to live.

I'm not talking about America. I'm not talking about any nation or race. This is worldwide. We have decided we need to take over the world and every nation is trying to do that, whether they are rich or poor, black or white.

We don't need saving. We were fine just the way we were and still are. We are slowly awakening to the fact that we are the truthful antichrists, aware of our independence of any salvation.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7813785 - 12/30/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In this way diversity has been crushed. There is now only one way to live in this world.:frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7814048 - 12/30/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ohh damn, where shall I begin with all this?

Quote:

You asked me what culture I'm talking about. I'm talking about a culture that says to itself "the world was made for man and man must conquer and rule it". I'm talking about a culture centered on an extremely labor intensive form of agriculture. This labor intensive agricultural system allowed massive surpluses, which allowed for huge population growth.

Before I go on I want to stress that there is nothing wrong with this style of agriculture. Any style of living is fine. There is no one right way for people to live. Different cultures had a huge variety of ways to live off the land, all ranging from pure hunting/gathering to pure agriculture. This one hit the extreme of pure agriculture.

What made this (our) culture unique and dangerous is that it put the idea into our heads that this is how man was meant to live. The power we had over the environment, which we gained at great cost, seemed only natural to us that this is how we should live. We have complete control over our food supply and so obviously (to them and thus us since we are the same culture) this is how we were meant to live. This is our destiny.




Funny how you say that we can always choose but in the same time you state this THIS is our destiny.
Doesn't it sound awkward to you?
It does to me. :shrug:

Quote:

That vision of mankind aided by their style of agriculture is the culture I'm talking about. That culture is everywhere, both east and west. It is the vision that the world is meant for us and that we need to conquer it. It is the vision that we KNOW how to live and others do not.




Define for me "we" and "others"
It is very important for you to do so because this discussion has an acute need of getting out of ambiguity into the light. :lol:
Until we don't settle that this thread looks like a drunken bee. :crazy:

Quote:

In this way diversity has been crushed. There is now only one way to live in this world. Our population is out of control and we work everyday to supply food for it. This only makes our population grow bigger. Give a population more food than it needs and it will get bigger - every time. It's the most clearly established fact in all of ecology.




Really?  :nerd:
Is there only one way to live? Can you please elaborate with some evidence?
You know what I see when I look at this world?
Yes, diversity all over the place. :smile: That, and tons of people who LOVE to whine about the quality of their lives, without doing anything to change that.

Quote:

I digress. The point is that our culture self-perpetuated itself. It grew and it grew and it conquered and it conquered. It grew due to it's labor intensive agricultural style (which means population will grow, no matter what) and it spread because they (we) knew we were right. It only felt natural.




It only felt natural when in fact it was... :confused:

And here the series of contradictions continue:

Quote:

It doesn't mean it was the correct choice. It also doesn't mean that we are flawed for making that choice.




And then you suddenly say:

Quote:

It was a bad choice...




Make up your mind.
Was it a neutral choice just as you stated first or was it a bad choice?

Quote:

and it is being self-corrected just like any other unstable biological strategy.




Elaborate.

Quote:

So where does Jesus come in? Jesus, and all the salvationist religions (all of the religions in the world) only arose because of our culture.




Just a thought... since all the religions are salvationist, why do you have to make that reference anymore?

Quote:

The crushing lack of real diversity in lifestyles and the population explosion has created a world filled with problems. They don't remember that it was ever different so they believed that this is just -how it is-. They believe that this, our culture, IS humanity. They don't understand that this, our culture, is just that. Our culture. It is the culture of man trying to take over the world. Only that.




Besides the fact that you REALLY have to clarify "they" "our" "others" and the like... WHAT are you talking about? :what:
Our culture, just like any other IS humanity. Wanna know why? Because it contains humans. :dumblol:
Isn't that hilarious?
Our culture trying to take over the world is human :yesnod:

Quote:

That's the key - people don't remember that it was and can be different. Everyone assumed that mankind started 10,000 years ago as totalitarian agriculturist civilization builders. Anything before that is regarded as "pre"-history, despite the fact that it was homo sapiens sapiens at the helm. The other 190,000 years are, for some reason, disregarded. They didn't live like us so they can't be humanity. Why not? Why is our last 10,000 years the ONLY right way to live?




People don't remember?
Of course they don't, they weren't there.
Ahhh, perhaps you mean that history doesn't say too much about the pre-agrciltural era.
Now that's different.
Let's take a look and think about why is that.
Well, using common sense, reason & all that other shit, we will soon realize that the main reason why it is so is because of the insufficiency of data-material to cover entire history books. Also because, from what we know about those times, nothing really out of the common has happened in order to catch our attention and make it history.
History serves the purpose of learning about humanity's past in order to learn something from it and to give us a certain notion about where we come from. (please don't start here with the true nature of our souls and where are they really coming from).
So, where was I?
Do your really think that if knew more about those times we'd have more diversity?
Scientists are now gathering more & more data about the dinosaur era, now that's diversity at it's best for you. :lol:
Ahhhh yes. Did you know that the average lifespan in the pre-agricultural era was 30 years?
Couldn't we say that in this way the quality of our lives has improved?
Do you really think that the problems that the world is facing right now are because of agriculture? :wtf:
Only one-sided view people live with the impression that we're on the road to destruction. It doesn't mean that this isn't a possibility, but considering other possibilities, this is less likely to happen.

Quote:

Jesus taught us we needed saving. As did the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. They all teach salvation because we felt we needed it. Things weren't working and nobody remembered a time when things did work. Those times existed for 190,000 years at least.




How the fuck do you KNOW all that?
It baffles me how some people have the tendency to whine and cry over the good old past (in your case the pre-agricultural era :lol:) instead of waking the fuck up and learn something from NOW. Or at least enjoy it.
Oh oh, I know I know, don't tell me. You can't do all that when you know that the world is falling apart. Poor baby :hug:
This is nothing else but escapism.

What if... people started considering agriculture (and industry, and technology) because of a shift in awareness?
Because they realized that there was room for more efficient?
Ahhh, I know! Shame on them that they couldn't predict all the potentially destructive aspects. :nono:

Quote:

Millions more for our earlier homo ancestors. They worked that way for so long because they worked! That sounds circular but it isn't.




Duh! :drag:

Quote:

There is no right or wrong for living. There is only what works. If it works it will continue. What worked continued for hundreds of thousands of years and only we, our culture, decided to take it upon ourselves to tell others how to live.




Which of course, is NOT human nature. Because that's where this discussion started from. :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7814223 - 12/30/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Ohh damn, where shall I begin with all this?

Quote:

You asked me what culture I'm talking about. I'm talking about a culture that says to itself "the world was made for man and man must conquer and rule it". I'm talking about a culture centered on an extremely labor intensive form of agriculture. This labor intensive agricultural system allowed massive surpluses, which allowed for huge population growth.

Before I go on I want to stress that there is nothing wrong with this style of agriculture. Any style of living is fine. There is no one right way for people to live. Different cultures had a huge variety of ways to live off the land, all ranging from pure hunting/gathering to pure agriculture. This one hit the extreme of pure agriculture.

What made this (our) culture unique and dangerous is that it put the idea into our heads that this is how man was meant to live. The power we had over the environment, which we gained at great cost, seemed only natural to us that this is how we should live. We have complete control over our food supply and so obviously (to them and thus us since we are the same culture) this is how we were meant to live. This is our destiny.




Funny how you say that we can always choose but in the same time you state this THIS is our destiny.
Doesn't it sound awkward to you?
It does to me. :shrug:

Quote:

That vision of mankind aided by their style of agriculture is the culture I'm talking about. That culture is everywhere, both east and west. It is the vision that the world is meant for us and that we need to conquer it. It is the vision that we KNOW how to live and others do not.




Define for me "we" and "others"
It is very important for you to do so because this discussion has an acute need of getting out of ambiguity into the light. :lol:
Until we don't settle that this thread looks like a drunken bee. :crazy:

Quote:

In this way diversity has been crushed. There is now only one way to live in this world. Our population is out of control and we work everyday to supply food for it. This only makes our population grow bigger. Give a population more food than it needs and it will get bigger - every time. It's the most clearly established fact in all of ecology.




Really?  :nerd:
Is there only one way to live? Can you please elaborate with some evidence?
You know what I see when I look at this world?
Yes, diversity all over the place. :smile: That, and tons of people who LOVE to whine about the quality of their lives, without doing anything to change that.

Quote:

I digress. The point is that our culture self-perpetuated itself. It grew and it grew and it conquered and it conquered. It grew due to it's labor intensive agricultural style (which means population will grow, no matter what) and it spread because they (we) knew we were right. It only felt natural.




It only felt natural when in fact it was... :confused:

And here the series of contradictions continue:

Quote:

It doesn't mean it was the correct choice. It also doesn't mean that we are flawed for making that choice.




And then you suddenly say:

Quote:

It was a bad choice...




Make up your mind.
Was it a neutral choice just as you stated first or was it a bad choice?

Quote:

and it is being self-corrected just like any other unstable biological strategy.




Elaborate.

Quote:

So where does Jesus come in? Jesus, and all the salvationist religions (all of the religions in the world) only arose because of our culture.




Just a thought... since all the religions are salvationist, why do you have to make that reference anymore?

Quote:

The crushing lack of real diversity in lifestyles and the population explosion has created a world filled with problems. They don't remember that it was ever different so they believed that this is just -how it is-. They believe that this, our culture, IS humanity. They don't understand that this, our culture, is just that. Our culture. It is the culture of man trying to take over the world. Only that.




Besides the fact that you REALLY have to clarify "they" "our" "others" and the like... WHAT are you talking about? :what:
Our culture, just like any other IS humanity. Wanna know why? Because it contains humans. :dumblol:
Isn't that hilarious?
Our culture trying to take over the world is human :yesnod:

Quote:

That's the key - people don't remember that it was and can be different. Everyone assumed that mankind started 10,000 years ago as totalitarian agriculturist civilization builders. Anything before that is regarded as "pre"-history, despite the fact that it was homo sapiens sapiens at the helm. The other 190,000 years are, for some reason, disregarded. They didn't live like us so they can't be humanity. Why not? Why is our last 10,000 years the ONLY right way to live?




People don't remember?
Of course they don't, they weren't there.
Ahhh, perhaps you mean that history doesn't say too much about the pre-agrciltural era.
Now that's different.
Let's take a look and think about why is that.
Well, using common sense, reason & all that other shit, we will soon realize that the main reason why it is so is because of the insufficiency of data-material to cover entire history books. Also because, from what we know about those times, nothing really out of the common has happened in order to catch our attention and make it history.
History serves the purpose of learning about humanity's past in order to learn something from it and to give us a certain notion about where we come from. (please don't start here with the true nature of our souls and where are they really coming from).
So, where was I?
Do your really think that if knew more about those times we'd have more diversity?
Scientists are now gathering more & more data about the dinosaur era, now that's diversity at it's best for you. :lol:
Ahhhh yes. Did you know that the average lifespan in the pre-agricultural era was 30 years?
Couldn't we say that in this way the quality of our lives has improved?
Do you really think that the problems that the world is facing right now are because of agriculture? :wtf:
Only one-sided view people live with the impression that we're on the road to destruction. It doesn't mean that this isn't a possibility, but considering other possibilities, this is less likely to happen.

Quote:

Jesus taught us we needed saving. As did the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. They all teach salvation because we felt we needed it. Things weren't working and nobody remembered a time when things did work. Those times existed for 190,000 years at least.




How the fuck do you KNOW all that?
It baffles me how some people have the tendency to whine and cry over the good old past (in your case the pre-agricultural era :lol:) instead of waking the fuck up and learn something from NOW. Or at least enjoy it.
Oh oh, I know I know, don't tell me. You can't do all that when you know that the world is falling apart. Poor baby :hug:
This is nothing else but escapism.

What if... people started considering agriculture (and industry, and technology) because of a shift in awareness?
Because they realized that there was room for more efficient?
Ahhh, I know! Shame on them that they couldn't predict all the potentially destructive aspects. :nono:

Quote:

Millions more for our earlier homo ancestors. They worked that way for so long because they worked! That sounds circular but it isn't.




Duh! :drag:

Quote:

There is no right or wrong for living. There is only what works. If it works it will continue. What worked continued for hundreds of thousands of years and only we, our culture, decided to take it upon ourselves to tell others how to live.




Which of course, is NOT human nature. Because that's where this discussion started from. :smirk:




1.) Maybe I wrote the sentence poorly. When I said "This is our destiny" I was still referring to how the people who started this culture felt. They felt that taking over the world was their destiny. It was their choice to follow those beliefs. It doesn't mean it IS our destiny. We don't HAVE a destiny because there is not just one way to live. That is just how they felt about it. They felt that their current culture was how humanity was meant to live and so they forced it on others. As a perfect example let's take the invasion of native american lands. We felt that they weren't living properly and so we did whatever it took to take their land and start using it properly.

2.) To define "we" and "others" I'll just use the same example because it's a good one. "We" being colonists, "others" being native americans. "We" being people who are SURE that our way is the best way to live and that everyone needs to live just like us, and "others" as people who don't feel that way.

3.) When it comes to diversity I'll make the argument that there is very little real diversity. There are no real differences in how anyone lives. The food is under lock and key in every society in every country on earth. We grow enough food to extend this population every year. Every religion promises salvation and tells us that we are flawed in some way. Who cares if we can listen to country or rap? Or go out to eat or stay in? Or climb Mt. Everest or some other mountain. These are just little differences in our free time. There is no real difference in how anyone can go about surviving.

4.) The choice to extend this culture in our methods was a bad choice.  It doesn't mean WE are bad for making that choice.

5.) Elaborating on the self-correction is probably the point where we branch off onto other topics and where this will turn into an argument, but I'd list things like territorial-based warfare, crime, massive social corruption; things like that. Also terrible ecological problems based on our huge intake of beef and corn. Overfishing. I could go on. I'm not saying all these problems are catastrophic right now. I'm saying that if we keep growing, which we WILL, then these problems are only going to get worse.

6.) I'll re-iterate that this culture is NOT huamnity. It is what we think humanity is because almost all humans on earth are now part of this culture. That is exactly what I'm talking about. You say this culture is humanity because it contains humans. At a time not even 1000 years ago there were HUMANS in OTHER cultures.

7.) To paraphrase the next point, do I think the problems of the world today are because of agriculture? To an extent, yes. It's due to mass agriculture. It's because we think we are different from any other species. Give any population enough food to grow and it will grow. We think we can fix our population with condoms and birth control pills but we can't. Maybe on an individual level I can stop it. I can wear condoms. You can wear condoms. At the level of a species, which is not able to be looked at and controlled so easy, if there is food there will be growth. Fact.

8.) How do I know that the "good old past" worked? Because we made it that far. We made it for millions of years and now we're (admittedly possibly) ending after only 10,000 years.

9.) Skipping some down to "Because they realized that there was room for more efficient?". Of course there is room to be more efficient. Does it mean everyone else has to be? And efficient in what? Growth? Yes we are efficiently growing to spectacularly stupid population density. Yes we are efficiently stockpiling food.


I'm not saying it's time to go back to the stone age. I'm saying it's time we think about the fact that we aren't the only way humans have ever lived. We're a very small portion of how humans have lived. 1/200th of the best guess of the duration of homo sapiens sapiens.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleawesomebastard
Lost
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7815204 - 12/30/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

jesus teachings were nothing of the sort jesus took a religion that was about hate war and anger and turned it into a peacefull one, now the church fixed that right quik but they twist his words his teachings were love thy neighbor as thyself and other very egoless teachings this was reflected in his lifestyle before you go talk shit about a religion know what the fuck your talking about im not a christian im agnostic but most to all of the churches probabems are brought about by the church and its dumb ass followers read the bible new and old testament tell me that jesus didnt do any good for jewdiasm.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: awesomebastard]
    #7815600 - 12/31/07 12:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ok yes, Jesus taught these things. But what was his biggest message. It was that you can be SAVED, through HIM. HE is the LIGHT. Only through HIM can you reach the kingdom of god.

It's salvationist, pure and simple. His other teachings have great purpose but deep down the message is flawed.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7815648 - 12/31/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You seem to be taking a very western view of salvation. In the Eastern church, salvation is viewed less in legalistic terms of hell and punishment, and more medical terms of sickness and healing. The ultimate goal for them is not salvation in the traditional sense, but theosis, a merging with the Godhead. In this sense, it is not so different from the Dharmic faiths and their emphasis on Moksha or Nirvana.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7815940 - 12/31/07 03:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

"We" being colonists, "others" being native americans.




Hate to break it to you Fred, but the Native Americans are just colonists who arrived earlier than the Europeans. Does that make them special?

Nature speaks loudly and clearly about whoever is strongest has the right, not the first.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Silversoul]
    #7816741 - 12/31/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

See I would say that moksha and nirvana are just ways of saying salvation here during life on earth, as opposed to salvation after you die. It's still delivering the message that there is essential knowledge that we don't have that we desperately need.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: marz13]
    #7816881 - 12/31/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

marz13 said:
You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.




Bullshit. Animals kills for resources and territory all the time.

You are an animal; just one with a bigger brain.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Redstorm]
    #7817375 - 12/31/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

marz13 said:
You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.




Bullshit. Animals kills for resources and territory all the time.

You are an animal; just one with a bigger brain.




I'm so glad you quoted that guy, I didn't even see that. That kind of thinking is really warped. We are animals.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Redstorm]
    #7817409 - 12/31/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

marz13 said:
You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.




Bullshit. Animals kills for resources and territory all the time.

You are an animal; just one with a bigger brain.




And how many extinctions and endangerings can we attribute to, say, a moose?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleawesomebastard
Lost
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7817460 - 12/31/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

man i do understand where you are coming from but this guy is talking about policing thought and text thats fucked up i just get alittle pissed when someone decides to make such a bold statement and doesnt have facts striaght.

by the way all human behavior can be linked to simple survival and reproductive impulses the only thing that reallyy cant is imagination and most people dont have shit as far as that goes religion was put in place to bring a group of individaul crazy fuckin semi intelligent monkeys together in peace without killing each other for food or women. Unfortunantly it only unites one group and just like we are all desinged a group with a differenet belief will kill another just as whites kill and enslave blacks its all genetic its the way a species evolves, unfortunate but true its the human race that IS FUCKED UP and needs change because we have the ability to. or in my opinion if everyone took a nice strong dose of ayauhasca now and then the world would be a better place.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 9 hours
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: awesomebastard]
    #7817487 - 12/31/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

According to Ayurveda, the brain is bone marrow.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7818785 - 01/01/08 12:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

marz13 said:
You said "Wicked compared to what?". Man is the only created being on earth that kills and destroys for greed, fun, power, oil and so on. Animals kill to eat. Your not an animal.




Bullshit. Animals kills for resources and territory all the time.

You are an animal; just one with a bigger brain.




So, because we cause extinctions, we are no longer animals? That's some faulty logic if I've ever see it.

And how many extinctions and endangerings can we attribute to, say, a moose?




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7819259 - 01/01/08 08:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Making things forbidden is a great way to start....


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Redstorm]
    #7820788 - 01/01/08 05:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:So, because we cause extinctions, we are no longer animals? That's some faulty logic if I've ever see it.




I don't think that we are just animals though. We are aware; aware of the damage we're doing. To say we are animals is no justification.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7820805 - 01/01/08 05:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How do you know that animals are not aware?
I love animals and I am a good observer of their behavior and let me tell you that they DO know what they're doing and they DO think about the outcome of their actions.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7820872 - 01/01/08 05:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't mean to say that a dog was unaware, though it probably sounded like it. And how do you know they have foresight? As in, the hamster not repeatedly going to the carrot with the electrical current or what?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 9 hours
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7820877 - 01/01/08 05:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone arguing whether animals are sentient or not are themselves insentient.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7820894 - 01/01/08 05:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Just because certain other animals don't manifest their awareness in the same ways as we do, doesn't mean that they don't posses awareness.
Saying that we are not animals is unfounded and it comes from a superiority complex, with no real intention of fixing or understanding anything.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7823113 - 01/02/08 10:33 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Just because certain other animals don't manifest their awareness in the same ways as we do, doesn't mean that they don't posses awareness.
Saying that we are not animals is unfounded and it comes from a superiority complex, with no real intention of fixing or understanding anything.




That's exactly right. No offense to the person who said that. It's a cultural teaching and the vast majority of people are under it's spell.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7823360 - 01/02/08 11:32 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:I don't think that we are just animals though. We are aware; aware of the damage we're doing. To say we are animals is no justification.




To say that humans are not animals is stupid, but I am saying that we're moving on from that definition to more superior and complex ventures. Take (for lack of imagination) the evergreen tree beside me. On its own its a tree, a plant, but because of the ornaments, candy canes and lights decorating it, it is now a Christmas tree! Fundamentally we are still animals, however, though evolution we've gained many more bells and whistles, primarily to do with the mind and our social habits. We are able to analyze, philosophize and win a prize if we are lucky..

'To whom much is given, much is expected'. To say we are animals as a justification for our greed is a cop out.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7823433 - 01/02/08 11:45 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Fundamentally we are still animals, however, though evolution we've gained many more bells and whistles, primarily to do with the mind and our social habits.





Bells & whistles huh?:strokebeard:
Please say more

Quote:

We are able to analyze, philosophize and win a prize if we are lucky..




Other animals can do the same things I assure you.
Well, except perhaps winning a prize. :lol:

Quote:

'To whom much is given, much is expected'.




In order to be given something, there must be a giver.
Who's the giver? :sherlock:

Quote:

To say we are animals as a justification for our greed is a cop out.




A justification? It's an observation, learn to make the difference between those two. :wink:
A cop out from what? From being judged? We only feel the need to justify ourselves when we have a judge. Do YOU have one?
I don't. It feels damn good. :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7823720 - 01/02/08 01:04 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Bells & whistles huh?:strokebeard:
Please say more




No.

Quote:

Other animals can do the same things I assure you.
Well, except perhaps winning a prize. :lol:




Assurances don't substantiate. How do you mean that animals (besides us..) can philosophize?

Quote:

In order to be given something, there must be a giver.
Who's the giver? :sherlock:




Nature? I wasn't implying a creator, but they came from somewhere and now we have them for better or worse. Our mental abilities may not have been gift boxed with the name 'Human' on it, but we have acquired them (to argue with myself, maybe its just to do with consciousness, quantity of neurons and increased social web that creates the facade that we're more intelligent on an individual level). As for expectation, I guess that has more to do with ourselves and our own outlook.

Is the child with 16 crayons going to create a better picture than the kid with 8? Unanswerable/its all opinion. But if that child with 16 crayons, say, stabs the other with his Sunflower Yellow to get more paper so he can use all of his colours..

Quote:

A justification? It's an observation, learn to make the difference between those two. :wink:
A cop out from what? From being judged? We only feel the need to justify ourselves when we have a judge. Do YOU have one?
I don't. It feels damn good. :smirk:




Huh? Redstorm said that animals kill for resources and land in response to marz13 talking about how humans are ravaging the earth. It seemed like RS was saying that because we are animals that it is natural for us to behave like we are. Due to our bells and whistles, we are aware of our actions and their consequences (in the context of modern humans - I know animals are well aware of their action's consequences MushTrip :smile:) to a great extent. You probably disagree but I think this means that humans should use their acquired cognition to adjust detrimental actions to the greater good (or even to just ensure there is a nice spot for our great grandchildren to grow up).

My judge? Retrospect.

"Hey man.. there is a mountain of shit of the coast of the Atlantic ocean beside New York. Its getting bigger and bigger but we don't know what to do. Not to mention the depletion of nutrients from soil from the amount of tobacco crops we are using and abusing. AIDS, starvation and poverty run rampant in many places throughout the world and I can get a 27" colour TV for 129 bucks! You'd think we'd be able to correct some of these problems."

"Don't worry about it, man. We're just animals."


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLove Cap
Wanderer
Female


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 401
Loc: somewhere in the plains
Last seen: 10 years, 15 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7824283 - 01/02/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Bells & whistles huh?
Please say more




are you kidding? :strokebeard:

Quote:

In order to be given something, there must be a giver.
Who's the giver?




seriously? this is not sharing ideas, this is just picking out petty things to argue about. :lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: WScott]
    #7824366 - 01/02/08 04:40 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

No, here's my stance on it.
We ARE animals. We are territorial exactly because we have the same traits as the other animals do. Acknowledging that does not necessarily equate with finding a justification and an excuse. It CAN be that, but if it wasn't this line of reasoning I can assure you that other excuses might and are available and are being used.
What would be wise to rid is that imperative feeling of finding an excuse for our actions, not the thought itself that we are animals.
In fact, I think that if we would start denying that (as some people do), it will be highly detrimental to any possible progress and shift of understanding.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7824989 - 01/02/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
What would be wise to rid is that imperative feeling of finding an excuse for our actions, not the thought itself that we are animals.
In fact, I think that if we would start denying that (as some people do), it will be highly detrimental to any possible progress and shift of understanding.




I :heart: this attitude. You're getting 5 shrooms.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 9 hours
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7826561 - 01/03/08 07:17 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I agree. We are merely animals and no better nor worse. I always have felt that way. We just process more information , I would like to say 'most of us,' than animals due to our greater range and diversity of information gathering. Then we also have bigger space to fill in our noggins.

The real irony is that we simply cannot figure out better means for conflict resolution than preying upon others. Seems if people gave fairly to those whom they exploited then there could not remain the sort of outright hostility that we see everywhere. But people of all places want the most for the least, instead of what's balanced and fair. Thus immorality is built into the very systems we create and thus perpetuated. In Bhutan they are developing their government upon the lines of GNH - or gross national happiness. That's using the brain, like a humanist! For once.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 9 hours
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: eve69]
    #7826638 - 01/03/08 08:30 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I imagine that most Middle Eastern cults since Manichaeasm have taught that this world is evil. Not just Christianity. That teaching of anything being evil is itself evil, and has led to humankind's decimation of the natural world which is the greatest evil of all. It is to my greatest sadness that we cannot any longer just live in harmony with the world without fearing that the forest will be chopped or the mountain will be blown apart or the ocean will be polluted or the air will be ripped from silence by huge jets. The natural elements have given way to chaos. Purity is gone from the Earth, and who sponsored this destruction? Those cults of the 'devout' who taught that this world is only half-truth and that there's something better on the other side! Well, there is nothing better on the other side for those who cannot even be good and preserve life on this side. That's my belief, and I feel that it's true and just. If we cannot get it right in this world there is no 'Riverworld' on the other side for making up for mistakes. The natural elements are the greatest of goodness allowing for all that we hold dear in our lives. Now all turned to plastic.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhilanthropist
Savior ofMankind

Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 204
Loc: Amsterdam, Holland
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7861179 - 01/10/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

With other words you can't make a frog bark.
these words have no meaning


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhilanthropist
Savior ofMankind

Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 204
Loc: Amsterdam, Holland
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Philanthropist]
    #7861190 - 01/10/08 07:28 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

y r people so easily controlled?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhilanthropist
Savior ofMankind

Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 204
Loc: Amsterdam, Holland
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: Philanthropist]
    #7861228 - 01/10/08 07:37 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

there is no evil, only wickeness and rightgeousness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7861903 - 01/10/08 09:28 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

If God is omnipotent, all knowing, and all understanding then why does Hell exist for He would understand why people did things?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7862223 - 01/10/08 10:15 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Jesus didn't teach anything that lay outside of Judaism. The post-biblical theologians have written so much into the New Testament sayings that you are yourself snowed from all the deceit and propaganda.

Original Sin is Augustinian. Paul taught a form of redemption which ws closer to the type that Jesus taught, yet Jesus Himself said in Luke 5:32:
"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." This means that there ARE righteous people yet the doctrine of Original Sin insisted that Everyone 'had fallen short of righteousness' and absolutely required the salvation of Jesus, which, of course, could ONLY be mediated through the sacrament of Communion, which the priests and Church controlled.

Read and learn my friend, as I have been avidly doing, 30 years after seminary. The whole world labors under the lies of men's doctrines.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/11/08 10:34 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7862281 - 01/10/08 10:26 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Read and learn my friend, as I have been avidly doing, 30 years after seminary. The whole world labors under the lies of men's doctrines.




THAT'S about the only thing "The DaVinci Code" got right.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7862471 - 01/10/08 11:02 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Jesus didn't teach anything that lay outside of Judaism. The post-biblical theologians have written so much into the New Testament sayings that you are yourself snowed from all the deceit and propaganda.

Original Sin is Augustinian. Paul taught a form of redemption which ws closer to the type that Jesus taught, yet Jesus Himself said in Luke 5:32:
"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." This means that there ARE righteous people yet the doctrine of Original Sin insisted that Everyone 'had fallen short of righteousness' and absolutely required the salvation of Jesus, ehich, of course, could ONLY be mediated through the sacrament of Communion, which the priests and Church controlled.

Read and learn my friend, as I have been avidly doing, 30 years after seminary. The whole world labors under the lies of men's doctrines.




Well OK. If there is anyone I trust on this forum for Christian information it's you, so thanks for the clarification.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecactu
culture and magic
Male

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 3,913
Loc: mexicoelcentrodelconocimi...
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: freddurgan]
    #7862988 - 01/11/08 12:21 AM (16 years, 22 days ago)

We don't need salvation. We didn't need salvation for hundreds of thousands of years. Maybe our culture does, but we as a species do not. Any teaching that says we as a species need salvation is incredibly destructive and should be forbidden.

you sound agitated, maybe is something missing , you sound like me when i use to say god was bad because he let us dye and have all this chaos until i realize Jesus is so cool he let you do what ever you want to do , i mean if that is not freedom what is is, be free , free yourself i guess like just guessing but if you have numbers please 30 % of world probation is catholic, 20 Judaism , 10 Buddha, 10 Mormons, 10 rastas, 5%atheism, 1%entheogen religions,
i mean the world is vast and extent, Indians are doom they don´t believe in Jesus and will go yo hell , but they don´t believe in hell either i´m confuse.
you see all is OK when you can see the order in the chaos , that to worry about, you are changing and the world will be different ,
but don´t worry about Jesus , he´s free as you are..
all my best.

-We don't need saving. We were fine just the way we were and still are. We are slowly awakening to the fact that we are the truthful antichrists, aware of our independence of any salvation.

men you said like millions word just to fall again in the same thing is this a bad felling you have with sometime are your parents separated . child living affect us the rest of our life, when we don´t have love as child we demand it, give to me you are bad you are cruel but what about me what i´m going to do i will believe this Jesus stuff, no man i only believe what i can probe, and see .that´s why i believe in Jesus , but i guess my Jesus is not the same for all the others,i also believe in Buddha maoma, Jimmy Hendrix, Aristotle's, platoon, Confucius, lactose, superman no sorry i don´t believe in superman but in the superhuman , telepathy's, clairvoyance, ghost,spirit,devils,god, the rain,the sum, the morning and i almost forgot the drop of rain in morning Sunday you can beat that.
what don´t you star your own religion i did this in mi mind and since to plug into other and in my own and in no one if you like have all the features.
all my best. mind is so precious tool ,


--------------------

cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa  al lado se puede sentir  que valio  la pena  haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se  convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo


Edited by cactu (01/11/08 12:47 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOzekat
Cosmic Observer
Male


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 186
Loc: Kentucky
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Jesus' teachings were very harmful [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7863398 - 01/11/08 02:20 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

"We" being colonists, "others" being native americans.




Hate to break it to you Fred, but the Native Americans are just colonists who arrived earlier than the Europeans. Does that make them special?

Nature speaks loudly and clearly about whoever is strongest has the right, not the first.




ahh, what is that? did I forget to put on my pants?

oh, nevermind, its just orgone being so very, very cold.

(lol ok that was kind of dorky)

C'mon man. White people have fucked up many other cultures trying to spread their seed in others women and sailing about the earth fucking around with other people's shit.  But thats ok because they were stronger than the natives? 

I think their asshole gene was just a bit more developed. :tongue:

yeah I'm white, I say fuck white people.

whoo hoo I love hypocrisy


--------------------
Tension is who you think you should be. Relaxation is who you are.
- Chinese Proverb

:teleport:

:yinyang: Beauty & Simplicity


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted
( 1 2 all )
fivepointer 4,149 34 05/16/06 11:19 AM
by gnrm23
* Christianity and "salvation"
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
SoopaX 10,474 112 08/16/05 09:31 AM
by eve69
* Belief in GOD and Jesus Christ to be YOUR very Salvation....
( 1 2 all )
PhanTomCat 3,340 34 03/15/05 02:54 AM
by PhanTomCat
* Teachings of Buddha and Jesus Christ - The Fundemental Differences.... . . . .
( 1 2 all )
PhanTomCat 3,666 20 03/10/05 12:18 AM
by PhanTomCat
* the distortion and fragmentation of jesus's teachings Deviate 2,247 18 07/26/05 05:09 PM
by OldWoodSpecter
* Teachings that Ring True
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 4,521 52 01/11/05 08:57 AM
by Sinbad
* the reason God would choose Jesus as the way of salvation?
( 1 2 all )
JCoke 2,295 21 07/20/06 02:38 PM
by Dimmy
* And if ye harm none, do as ye will
( 1 2 3 all )
ShroomismM 2,741 48 09/10/03 01:59 AM
by fireworks_god

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,556 topic views. 0 members, 11 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.051 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.