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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted
    #5623914 - 05/13/06 11:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Spong is not a Christian, he is a false teacher who worships a false jesus and false god.

His pet peeve is "fundamentalism" who hold to "literalism". When he uses the term "literalist" he is not saying someone is taking Biblical text out of context or interpreting figurative language literally. He is actually saying when someone accepts the historical accounts and theological doctrines of the Bible as completely true, then they are "literalists". He is an attempting to attack on the inerrancy of the scripture by using language. It is an attempt to attach a marginalizing term (literalist) to those who hold the scripture as inerrant.

A summary of some of his other lies:

He rejects the following-

God as creator distinct from creation
Adam as a special creation and historical figure
The Devil as an actual entity
Man's fall from innocence into sin
Israel as ever having been God's chosen people
The Trinity
The preexistence of Christ
The incarnation of Christ as the God-man
The virgin birth of Christ
The bodily resurrection of Christ
The ascension of Christ
The Atonement as a substitutionary death for sin
Salvation through faith in Christ alone
Eternal punishment for the unbelieving wicked
Biblical inerrancy


He asserts the following-

He repeatedly defends homosexuality
He regards the miraculous works of Jesus as myth
He thinks the Gospel of John does not contain "a single word...actually spoken by the historic Jesus"
He defends the theory that Paul was a "self-loathing," "rigidly controlled gay male"

This man is a wolf in sheep's clothing.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5623958 - 05/13/06 11:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Care to defend your accusations against him and your assertion of his lies? Or are you just attempting to attach a marginalizing term ("liar") to him? :wink:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: dblaney]
    #5624047 - 05/13/06 12:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You said refuted, by what, by an opinion?

It's not that I share his views, It's just that this thread has no trace of something being "refuted"


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblemoog
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624206 - 05/13/06 12:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Who cares what some guy believes or teaches? How does this directly affect your or my life?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624210 - 05/13/06 01:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This man is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And maybe you are a sheep trying to play wolf.

As asked, please defend your views.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: Icelander]
    #5624488 - 05/13/06 02:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Refuted by what?
The Word of God


I have provided excepts from The Christian Confession of Faith, which is a good summary to refute him. It can be found at: http://www.outsidethecamp.org/ccfindex.htm

He rejects the following-

God as creator distinct from creation


2. God created the universe in six days and continues to sovereignly and actively uphold, control, and sustain it. [Gen 1:1-31; 8:22; Exo 20:10-11; 1Sa 2:8; 2Ki 19:15; 1Ch 16:26; Neh 9:6; Job 9:5-9; 26:7-14; 28:24-27; 38:1-41:34; Psa 8:3; 19:1; 24:1-2; 33:6-9; 74:16-17; 89:11-12; 90:2; 95:4-5; 102:25; 104:1-32; 121:2; 124:8; 136:5-9; 146:6; 147:7-9; 148:3-12; Pro 3:19-20; 8:23-31; 30:4; Isa 40:26-28; 42:5; 44:24; 48:13; Jer 10:12-13; 27:5; 31:35; 32:17; 51:15-16; Amo 4:13; 5:8; 9:6; Zec 12:1; Joh 1:1-3; Act 4:24; 14:15; 17:24-28; Rom 1:20; Eph 3:9; Rev 4:11; 10:6; 14:7]

Adam as a special creation and historical figure

1. On the sixth day of creation, God formed the first man (Adam) out of the dust of the ground. The first woman (Eve) was formed from one of Adam's ribs. Unlike the other creatures, Adam and Eve were created in God's own image (that is, with understanding and a will). They were created in a state of innocence. [Gen 1:26-30; 2:7,21-25; 9:6; Exo 20:11; Ecc 7:29; Jam 3:9]


The Devil as an actual entity
Man's fall from innocence into sin

1. Adam and Eve sinned by believing the devil's lie and eating the forbidden fruit. [Gen 3:1-6]

2. In so doing, Adam and Eve fell from their original state of innocence into a state of spiritual death and depravity. The guilt and defilement of Adam's sin has been imputed to all whom he represented (all his natural posterity). The spiritual state of total depravity into which Adam fell has been transmitted to all whom he represented, and all whom he represented became physically subject to decay and death. [Gen 3:7-8,16-24; 5:3-5; Psa 51:5; Rom 3:10-18; 5:12-14,19; 8:5-8; Eph 2:1-3; 4:17-19]

3. The truth of total depravity does not mean that all men are as outwardly immoral as they possibly could be. It means that every faculty of the soul of every natural (that is, unregenerate) descendant of Adam is completely polluted with hatred of the true and living God, and all of the natural man's thoughts, words, and deeds (even his kindness, morality, and religion) are dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death. It means that every natural descendent of Adam owes a debt to God's law and justice that he cannot pay. It means that every natural descendent of Adam is spiritually dead, having no spiritual understanding, a lover of darkness rather than light, a slave of sin, unable and unwilling to obey God and come to Jesus Christ for salvation. This truth is contrary to the damnable poison known as "free will," which seeks to make the creature independent of the Creator and seeks to make the Potter depend on the clay, according to the devil's lie, "You shall be as God." [Gen 3:5; Psa 14:2-3; Pro 12:10; 15:8; Isa 45:20; 64:6; Jer 13:23; 17:9; Mat 7:18; Joh 3:19-20; 6:44-45; Rom 1:20-23; 3:9-12,20; 5:12; 6:16-23; 7:5; 8:5-8; 10:2-3; 1Co 2:14; 2Co 4:3-4; Eph 2:5; 4:18; Col 1:21; 2:13; Heb 9:14; 11:6]

4. Yet all men are responsible to obey the commands of God, because God, as the sovereign King of creation, has the right to command obedience from His creatures, regardless of their ability to obey. [Deu 10:16; Mat 12:13; 28:18; Joh 11:43; Act 17:30-31; Rom 2:12-16; 2Th 1:8]


The Trinity

B. The Trinity

1. God has revealed in His Scriptures that He is a triune being: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each member of the Godhead is eternal and coequal. [Exo 3:14; Psa 110:1; Joh 1:1; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30-33; Act 20:28; 1Co 10:9; 15:47; 2Co 3:17-18; 1Ti 3:16; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:3; 1Pe 1:2; Jud 4,20-21]

2. Yet Scripture does not teach the existence of three gods, nor one person manifesting himself three different ways, but that there is one God existing in three Persons. [Deu 6:4; Mar 12:29; Gal 3:20]

3. The Son is eternally begotten by the Father, and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son. [Isa 61:1; Mat 3:16; Luk 4:18; Joh 3:16; 15:26; 17:5; Act 2:17-18; Rom 8:9; 1Co 2:10-14; 3:16; 2Co 3:17; Phi 1:19; 1Jo 4:9]



The preexistence of Christ
The incarnation of Christ as the God-man
The virgin birth of Christ
The bodily resurrection of Christ
The ascension of Christ
The Atonement as a substitutionary death for sin


IV. JESUS THE CHRIST

A. His Nature

1. There is only one man among the descendants of Adam born without a sinful nature, and this is Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son incarnate. He was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit, contracting no guilt or defilement from Adam. He was totally and completely without sin. [Isa 7:14; 53:9; Mat 1:25; Luk 1:31-35; 2Co 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26-27; 1Pe 2:22-23; 1Jo 3:5]

2. Jesus of Nazareth is really and truly God as well as really and truly human. He is the only descendant of Adam with two natures, human and divine. These two natures are continually without confusion, without change, without division, and without separation. Scripture rejects the lie that Jesus Christ was merely human and not fully divine. It likewise rejects the lie that Jesus Christ was a supernatural being but not fully human. [Deu 18:15; Psa 2:7; 110:1; Isa 9:6; Luk 2:7; Joh 1:1,14,18; 3:16,18; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30-33; Act 20:28; Rom 1:3; 1Co 15:47; Gal 4:4; Phi 2:6-8; Col 1:15; 1Ti 3:16; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:1-5; 5:5; 1Jo 4:9,15; Rev 1:17-18]

B. His Offices

1. Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah about whom the prophets of old spoke. He is the one who was anointed by the Father to be a Savior for His elect people. [1Sa 2:10; Psa 2:2; 18:50; 84:9; Isa 43:11; Mat 16:16-17; Luk 2:25-30; 24:44-46; Joh 1:41; 5:39; 8:56; Act 3:18; 4:25-27; 9:22; 28:23; 1Co 10:1-4; Gal 3:8]

2. Jesus Christ is the great Prophet who declares the will of God to His people. [Deu 18:15-19; Isa 50:4; 61:1-3; Nah 1:15; Luk 4:17-21,24; 13:33; Act 3:22-24; Heb 1:1-2]

3. Jesus Christ is the great High Priest who intercedes with the Father on behalf of His people, pleading the merits of His own atoning blood and imputed righteousness. [Psa 110:4; Zec 6:13; Heb 2:17; 3:1; 5:1-10; 6:20-10:21]

4. Jesus Christ has absolute authority over His people, ruling and reigning over them as the great King. [Gen 49:10; Psa 2:6-7; 132:10-11; Isa 9:6-7; Jer 23:5-6; Dan 7:13-14; 9:25; Zec 6:13; 9:9-10; Mat 21:4-5; 22:1-14; 25:31-34; 28:18; Joh 18:36-37; Eph 1:20-23; Phi 2:9-11; Heb 2:8-9; Rev 1:5; 17:14; 19:16]

C. His Work

1. When He became incarnate, Jesus Christ was made subject to the law of God and was obliged to obey all its precepts. He did this perfectly, to the minutest detail. [Psalm 40:8; Isa 50:5; Mat 3:15; 2Co 5:21; Gal 4:4; Heb 2:14-15; 4:15; 7:26; 1Pe 2:22-23; 1Jo 3:4-5]

2. The consummate act of obedience that Jesus Christ paid to the law was in suffering the ultimate penalty for the disobedience of His people that the law demanded. Thus, while upon the cross, Jesus Christ, as a perfect representative, substitute, and sacrifice for His people, became a curse for His people and suffered the unmitigated fury of God the Father, which was equivalent to suffering the very pains of hell. This was not for any guilt He had contracted Himself but for the sins of His people. Their guilt was imputed to Him, and He suffered the penalty their sins deserved. His finished work on the cross appeased God's wrath in full toward all for whom He died and paid the ransom price in full for all for whom He died, guaranteeing the salvation of all for whom He died. [Gen 22:13; Exo 12:3-13; Lev 16:21-22; 17:11; Psa 22:1-18; 32:1; Isa 53:1-12; Dan 9:24-26; Zec 13:7; Mat 26:28; 27:35-50; Mar 15:24-37; Luk 23:33-46; 24:46; Joh 11:49-52; 19:16-30; Act 17:3; 20:28; Rom 3:24-25; 5:6-11; 1Co 1:30; 5:7; 6:20; 15:3; 2Co 5:21; Gal 1:4; 2:20; 3:13; 4:5; Eph 1:7; 2:13-17; Col 1:14,20-22; 2:13-14; 1Th 5:10; 1Ti 2:6; Tit 2:14; Heb 2:9-10,17; 9:12-14,26-28; 10:10-18; 13:12; 1Pe 1:18-19; 2:24; 3:18; 1Jo 1:7; 2:2; 3:5; 4:10; Rev 1:5; 5:9]

3. The perfect righteousness that Jesus Christ established is imputed to every one of God's people in time. Because of this imputed righteousness, they are declared blameless before God and reconciled to God. Christ's righteousness imputed demands God's favor and fellowship toward them. [Job 29:14; Psa 32:2; 85:10-11; Isa 53:11; 61:10; Jer 23:5-6; Rom 3:21-22; 4:6-8; 5:9-11,17-19; 8:1,31-39; 1Co 1:30; 2Co 5:18-21; Eph 5:25-27; Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:6-7]

4. The Father set His seal of approval upon the work of Jesus Christ on the cross by resurrecting Him from the dead and exalting Him to sit at the Father's right hand. [Job 19:25-27; Psa 16:10; Luk 24:4-7; Act 1:22; 2:24-33; 3:15; 4:10,33; 5:31; 10:40; 13:30-37; 17:3,31; Rom 1:4; 4:24-25; 5:10; 6:4,9-10; 8:34; 10:9; 14:9; 1Co 15:20-28; 2Co 5:15; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:20; Col 2:12; 1Th 1:10; 2Ti 2:8; Heb 1:3; 10:12; 12:2; 1Pe 1:21]

5. From there Jesus Christ rules and intercedes for His people until the day He judges the world and until the final enemy, death, is subdued beneath His feet. [Psa 96:13; 110:1,6; Mat 25:31-46; Act 10:42; 17:31; Rom 8:34; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1]

6. Those who deny the effectual work of Jesus Christ, claiming instead that the blood of Jesus Christ atoned for everyone without exception (including those in hell), deny the very heart of the gospel. They do not believe that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation; instead, these self-righteous boasters believe that it is the effort of the sinner that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. These blasphemers deny that Jesus Christ made full satisfaction for sins and that Jesus Christ accomplished and ensured salvation for all whom He represented. They trample underfoot the precious blood of Jesus Christ, treating it as something of no value. They glory and boast in themselves, for whatever one believes makes the difference between salvation and damnation is what one glories and boasts in. There is not a single one of these blasphemers who is a child of God. [Psa 25:14; 74:18; 94:4; 139:20; Pro 30:12-13; Isa 28:14-18; 42:8; 48:11; Joh 16:8-14; Rom 3:27-28; 4:2; 10:3; 16:17-18; 1Co 2:12; 2Co 10:3-6; Gal 1:8-9; 6:14; Eph 2:8-9; Phi 3:18-19; 1Ti 4:1; 2Ti 3:2-5; 4:3-4; Heb 10:29; 1Jo 2:22-23; 4:6; 2Jo 9]

D. Jesus Christ Alone

1. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, for He alone has partaken of both the divine and human natures and is alone able to lay His hand upon both God and Man. Scripture rejects the lie that Mary or any "saints" mediate between God and men. [Job 9:32-33; Isa 53:12; Zec 6:13; Luk 23:34; Joh 14:6; Act 4:12; Rom 5:1-2; Eph 2:14-18; 1Ti 2:5; Heb 4:15; 9:15; 10:19-20; 12:24]

2. According to the terms of the eternal covenant, the mediatorship of Jesus Christ is designed for the benefit of the elect alone and is absolutely effectual to secure pardon for their sins and all the blessings of God's favor and fellowship toward them. [Isa 49:5-8; Mat 1:21; Joh 6:39; 10:11,27-29; 17:3; Act 20:28; Rom 8:33-39; Gal 3:17-18; Eph 1:3; 5:25; Heb 8:6-13]



Salvation through faith in Christ alone

C. Regeneration and Conversion

1. Regeneration (also known as the new birth) is that grace in which the Holy Spirit brings a sinner from spiritual death to spiritual life, takes away his old heart and old spirit, implants within him a new heart and a new spirit, and indwells him. He is made a new creation, dead to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ, so that he is no longer totally depraved and no longer serves sin. God's grace in regeneration is irresistible; that is, no man is able to resist the motions of the Holy Spirit to regenerate him. Regeneration is never preceded by any condition the sinner meets, can meet, or is enabled to meet. [Deu 30:6; Jer 24:7; Eze 11:19-20; 36:25-27; Zec 4:6; Joh 1:13; 3:3-8; 6:37,44,63; 10:3-5,27; 17:2; Rom 5:5; 6:1-22; 7:6; 8:2,5-16,30; 1Co 15:45; Eph 2:5; 4:22-24; Col 2:11-13; Tit 3:5; Heb 9:13-15; 1Pe 1:23]

2. At the same time a sinner is regenerated, he is adopted into God's family and set apart from the world. He is counted to be as holy and acceptable before God as Jesus Christ Himself, is made to be at peace with God, and enters into fellowship with God based on the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. [Job 29:14; Psa 85:8; Isa 26:3; 32:17; 61:10; Joh 1:12; 17:21-23; Rom 3:22; 4:6-8; 5:1-2,19; 8:14-17,33-39; 1Co 1:30; 6:11; 2Co 5:21; Gal 3:26; 4:5-7; Eph 1:4-5; 2:14-19; 3:11-12; 5:25-27; Col 1:20-22; 2Th 2:13; Tit 3:7; Heb 2:10-11; 1Jo 1:3; 3:1; Rev 21:7]

3. Conversion is that grace in which the Holy Spirit causes the sinner to repent and believe the gospel. The regenerate person is given a knowledge and understanding of the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ alone and the realization that he was unregenerate when he believed a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. He counts all of his former life and deeds, whether religious or irreligious, as dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death. Conversion is the immediate and inevitable fruit of regeneration; therefore, a person may not be regenerated without being converted. There has never existed and will never exist a regenerate person who is ignorant of the gospel. Scripture rejects the lie that an unregenerate person can be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit only leads people to Jesus Christ and His righteousness as the only ground of salvation. [Deu 4:34-35; Isa 45:6,20-25; Mat 13:23; Mar 16:16; Joh 6:40; 8:32; 16:8-11; 17:3; Act 16:14-15; Rom 1:16-17; 3:26; 6:17,21; 7:6; 1Co 2:10-12; 2Co 4:2-6; Eph 1:13; Phi 3:7-8; 2Th 2:13-14; Heb 9:14; 1Jo 5:20]

4. Faith is not a condition of or prerequisite to salvation; instead, faith believes that Jesus Christ alone met all the conditions for salvation. Faith is the instrument through which a believer receives the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and is justified. No man is justified before God by works. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is diametrically opposed to salvation by works. Scripture rejects the lie that man is able to keep the law of God or even a mere summary of the law as a means of gaining God's favor, let alone that he is able to obey the law beyond what God requires. [Isa 45:24-25; 51:5; Luk 17:10; Joh 1:12-13; 5:24; 6:29; Act 13:39; Rom 3:20-28; 4:1-5,14-25; 5:1; 9:16,30-33; 11:6; Gal 2:16; 3:6-12; 5:2-6; Eph 2:8-9; Phi 3:9; Heb 11:4,7]

5. When God regenerates and converts a sinner, indwelling sin is not totally removed from a believer. A believer continues to sin against God all the days of his life, and he continues to be ashamed of and to repent of his sin. But a believer's sin in no way forfeits his interest in Jesus Christ nor annuls God's covenant with him. Scripture rejects the lie that man may be freed from indwelling sin in this life; anyone who says he has no sin is an unbeliever. [1Ki 8:46; Psa 32:5; 37:24; 38:18; 41:4; 69:5; 130:3; Rom 7:14-25; Jam 5:16; 1Jo 1:8-10]

6. God gives every believer assurance of salvation. The believer's assurance does not lie in his obedience to the law, his continued repentance, or anything else but in the sure and certain promise of God through the work of Jesus Christ alone received by faith. [2Sa 23:5; Psa 5:11; 9:10; 32:10; 34:22; 62:1-2,5-7; 64:10; 125:1; 130:7-8; 147:11; Isa 26:3; 32:17; Jer 17:7-8; Nah 1:7; Rom 5:1; 8:15-16,33-39; 9:33; 2Co 1:18-22; Eph 3:12; Phi 1:6; Col 2:2; 1Th 1:5; 2Ti 1:12; Heb 6:11,16-19; 10:22; 11:1; Rev 5:9]



Eternal punishment for the unbelieving wicked

VII. THE END TIMES

A. Jesus Christ will return from Heaven as He promised, the dead will be resurrected, and the whole world will be judged, all at God's appointed time. [Psa 96:13; Dan 7:9-14; 12:1-2; Mat 16:27; 25:31-46; Mar 4:22; 13:24-27; Joh 5:28-29; Act 1:11; 17:31; 24:15; 1Co 15:23-25; 2Co 5:10; 1Th 4:15-17; 2Th 1:7-10; 2Ti 4:1; Heb 9:27-28; 2Pe 3:10-12; Rev 1:7-8; 20:11-13]

B. All for whom Jesus Christ did not die will live eternally in the pit of Hell and will be eternally tormented for their sins. Souls who are tormented in the next life will never suffer enough to even begin to pay for as much as one sin. Scripture rejects the lie that souls in Hell cease to exist or cease to be tormented, as this is a denial that offending the infinitely holy God is an infinite crime deserving of an infinite punishment. Scripture also rejects the lie of Purgatory as well as the lie that those who perish denying the doctrines of the gospel will finally accept them in heaven. [Deu 32:22,41; Psa 9:17; Pro 27:20; Isa 33:14; Dan 12:2; Mat 3:12; 5:22; 7:21-23; 10:28; 11:22-24; 13:41-42; 25:30,46; Mar 9:42-48; Luk 16:23-24,26; Joh 3:36; 10:11,26; 12:48; Rom 2:5-9; 6:23; Gal 3:10; 2Th 1:5-9; Heb 10:26-27; 2Pe 3:7; Jud 6-7; Rev 14:9-11; 19:2-3; 20:14-15]

C. All for whom Jesus Christ died will live eternally in Heaven in perfect fellowship with God, as He promised them. The final state of the Church will be eternal glory with her King and Husband. He will wipe every tear from her eyes and will entirely remove all indwelling sin from her. She will worship Him in the presence of His visible glory for all eternity. [Psa 49:15; 116:8; Isa 25:8; Dan 12:2; Mat 19:29; 25:34,46; Luk 18:29-30; Joh 3:15-16; 3:36; 4:14; 6: 40,47,54; 10:28; 14:2-3; 17:2-3; Rom 2:7; 6:22-23; 8:30; 1Co 15:53-54; Gal 6:8; Phi 3:20-21; Col 3:4; Tit 1:2; 2:13; 3:7; 1Pe 1:4; 2Pe 3:13; 1Jo 2:25,28; 3:2; Rev 14:1-5; 21:2-4,22-27; 22:1-5]



Biblical inerrancy

I. SCRIPTURE

A. Inspiration

1. All of the Bible is given by inspiration of God and is thus without error. It is the very Word of God. It does not merely contain the Word of God, as if it contained the erroneous words of men mingled with the perfect words of God. The doctrine of inspiration is the first principle from which all biblical doctrines are derived. Its truth is revealed to man by God. [2Sa 7:28; 23:2; Psa 12:6; 25:5; 111:7-8; 119:43,89; 138:2; Dan 10:21; Joh 17:17; Act 3:18; 1Co 2:4,12-16; 2Ti 2:15; 3:15-17; Heb 1:1-2; 2Pe 1:20-21; 3:15]

2. There is no part of Scripture that contradicts any other part of Scripture. [Psa 19:7-9; 2Co 1:18-20; Heb 6:17-18]

B. Preservation

It has been God's special care to providentially preserve the Bible whole and unblemished through every age. [Deu 31:11; Psa 12:5-7; 111:7-8; 119:152; Isa 40:8; 59:21; Act 15:21; Rom 3:1-4; Eph 2:20]

C. Scripture Alone

1. Only the Bible is to be received as authoritative, to the exclusion of all other writings, because it is the only inspired Word of God. In it God has given His church everything necessary for life and godliness. It is forbidden to add unto or take away anything from the Word of God; the doctrine within it is most perfect and complete in all respects. God has not given any new revelations to His people since the close of Scripture, and there is no unwritten tradition equal or superior in authority to the Scriptures. [Deu 4:2; 11:18-21; 12:32; Jos 1:8; Psa 19:7-11; Pro 30:5-6; Isa 40:6-8; Mat 15:5-9; Luk 16:31; Gal 1:10-17; 2Ti 3:15-17; 2Pe 1:3-4; Rev 22:18-19]

2. Let all men and all doctrines, including this Confession, be judged by this standard alone. Whatever is taught in any book or by any man that is contrary to the Bible is to be rejected. [Deu 13:1-4; Isa 8:20; Joh 7:24; Act 17:11; Gal 1:8-9; 1Jo 4:1]


He asserts the following-

He repeatedly defends homosexuality

Scripture repeatedly denounces homosexuality in the OT and NT. [Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, Rom 1:27, 1Co 6:9}

He regards the miraculous works of Jesus as myth.
He had better throw away the entire Word since it plainly declares these miracles as actually happening.

He thinks the Gospel of John does not contain "a single word...actually spoken by the historic Jesus"
Well I guess John is a blatant liar then.


He defends the theory that Paul was a "self-loathing," "rigidly controlled gay male"
This is pure fantasy with no scripture at all to back it.


Edited by fivepointer (05/13/06 02:27 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624506 - 05/13/06 02:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Which word of God?  :grin:

Lot's of people believe in different Gods, or versions of the so called Christian God.

You're just one of a throng.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/13/06 02:35 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: Icelander]
    #5624519 - 05/13/06 02:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Which word of God?

Lot's of people believe in different Gods, or versions of the so called Christian God.

You're just one of a throng.


This man claims to be a Christian.
I am showing why he is not.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624570 - 05/13/06 03:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Does anybody here know who he is besides you?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: Icelander]
    #5624579 - 05/13/06 03:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

MarcosTheGnostic holds to the doctrines of Spongism.


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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624686 - 05/13/06 03:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Os, so what you are saying that he is not really a christian? Well by definition the christian believes in the Bible, so in that you are right, but so what? There are many "christians" in the world who are far from being real christians, he is just one of them, only one that is louder perhapse


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5624763 - 05/13/06 03:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well by definition the christian believes in the Bible,

Not according to my dictionary. Of the five definitions of Christanity not one states that.

Here's the one I like. "Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Christ."


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/13/06 04:05 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624780 - 05/13/06 04:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Now say: "Polly want a cracker, Polly want a cracker."


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: Icelander]
    #5624812 - 05/13/06 04:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I like that definition. But by that meaning, there would be only a few hundred Christians in the world.


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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: Icelander]
    #5624826 - 05/13/06 04:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well by definition the christian believes in the Bible,

Not according to my dictionary. Of the five definitions of Christanity not one states that.

Here's the one I like. "Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Christ."




Well Bible is the only source of information about Jesus (plus Judas gospel now, if you are willing to accept it) so what choice you have as someone following christ then to believe in the words of the Bible?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5624846 - 05/13/06 04:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You have whatever choice you want. You can be a Christian who believes in the bible in one way or part way or a different way. Why do you think there are Baptists and Catholics and all the other variations on this, not to mention the Gnostics and this guy fivepointer wants to refute?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: Icelander]
    #5624880 - 05/13/06 04:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You can be a Christian who believes in the bible in one way or part way or a different way.

No, there is only one gospel, one Jesus, one Holy Spirit, and one God. There are many false gospels, false jesuses, and false gods that abound today.

Catholics, Gnostics, ect. worship different gods, they both can't be right. Those who worship God must do so in Spirit and in Truth.
Those who do not have a love of the truth, do not define the truth, do not defend the truth are unbelievers.


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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: Icelander]
    #5624908 - 05/13/06 04:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You have whatever choice you want. You can be a Christian who believes in the bible in one way or part way or a different way. Why do you think there are Baptists and Catholics and all the other variations on this, not to mention the Gnostics and this guy fivepointer wants to refute?




But they all believe that there is truth in Bible, they just interpret it in different ways.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624927 - 05/13/06 04:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've seen lots of different ways of defining what's important in different churches. I used to be in that gig. I traveled in the midwest and would go from church to church. I was Baptist. A nasty lot of liars and cheats they were.

I have never seen the spirit of truth in your words. You don't seem like a Christian to me. Your actions/words are robotic and to me, demonic. You seem to talk like the Pharasees who did not know love but only the "law". Your views seem truly fear driven and robotic IMO. When I was a young man I was very sincere and accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I left the church because I didn't see any reflection of Christ in the behavior of the so called Christians. The only Christians I have seen who have some real love for Christ are the ones who love life. Mostly Gnostics but occasionally in the regular church.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted [Re: fivepointer]
    #5624933 - 05/13/06 04:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Firstly, it's either Marcus the Gnostic (Latin) or Markos the Gnostic (Greek).
At the time that I chose MarkostheGnostic, I was unaware that there was a radical Gnostic with this name. Perhaps I am a reincarnation of the person  :wink:
At any rate, if you are intentionally mispelling my spelling of my tag, then I understand the motive behind that. The assertion that there is a doctrine of "Spongism" is ridiculous both the John Spong and myself. Spong is simply applying logic and reason to explicate the words of scripture, not pre-Formal Operational Thought (which is called Concrete Operational Thought - a cognitive stage that should be transcended by adults who are capable of abstract thought and logic). So that is two errors. If you were a robot like the Star Trekian NOMAD, I would ask you to exercise your prime directive and exterminate error - on yourself.

Your belief in inerrancy is also ridiculous. The Bible is so replete with blatant errors that someone as skilled as Spong points out the absurdity, nay, insanity of anyone with so medieval an attitude. In fact, as my May 11th Zen calendar page noted: "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thought. With our thoughts, we make the world." - Buddha. This is the insight of some of Buddhist psychology. If you believe in inerrancy, it will unconsciously be imputed to the believer, which is you. You believe in this impossible literalism and you yourself are extremely literal and concrete. This is part of your obsessive-compulsiveness which at some point took on the coloring of Bibliolatry. You actually believe that YOU are inerrant, that only YOUR perspective is true. That, I'm afraid is the same infantile grandiosity that all fanatics (not fans) have in common.  As the Zen saying states, we are in a world of our own making. YOU are in a belief-bubble of your own, as are others of your obsession. I want to know the Truth, and I want to be Free. You would misinterpret the meanings of open-ended spiritual statements because you wish to escape from true freedom, and like the scribes and lawyers that Jesus condemned, you would also hinder anyone else who wanted to KNOW the Truth.

Orignial Christianity was about spiritual freedom in which many intellectual reflections (reflections!!) of the Experience of Christ co-existed. Constantine used Christian doctrine to unify the Roman Empire, and employed only those versions which promulgated complete dependence (based on fear) on the Church and its priests. You are mentally still in that prison, while spiritually I can discern nothing of Christ in your messages. There is only robotically misapplied verses to concepts which escape your grasp. Ask for instruction for crying out loud. We've all been duped, and you're more deeply stuck than most.

The Gnosis of Paul differed markedly from the 'gnosis so-called' which Paul railed against. If you had a working knowledge of church history, and more importantly, if you weren't scared s**tless of being wrong or (more absurdly) 'offensive' in the 'Eyes of God,' then you would begin to actually think for yourself and have REAL faith and trust in the divine image and likeness that we all are. Unlike the X-Files, 'The Truth is NOT out there,' in a book. The Good Book talks about the Truth, it is not the Truth itself. You are a lot more like a fundamentalist Muslim than you know. They believe the very paper and ink is an 'incarnation' of God's Word. So do you. You best read Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes, by J.S. Spong yourself first. It is a brilliant explication of how the New Testament was compiled and why. +++Good God Almighty, Please help this fellow fivepointer. Amen+++

Meet your brother-in-arms. You both share the same fundamentalist mentality. There's nothing salvific about his message either.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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