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Offlineergot
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Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?
    #2334802 - 02/14/04 05:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why would Jesus utter these words upon his crucifixion? He had preached total trust and commitment to the will of God... why would he have felt abandoned near his imminent death? I consider Jesus an 'enlightened' individual that was just as divine as any other person; that is, he was not some sort of unique savior. However, he had complete faith for most of his life and dedicated his life to the teachings of love and worship... so, why would he disregard his own philosophy near the end of his life?

-ergot


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2334807 - 02/14/04 05:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why don't you get nailed to a cross and left to die and see how well you keep your faith?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineergot
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2334813 - 02/14/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but death should not have been a concern to some one that preached eternal life in the great beyond...


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2334823 - 02/14/04 05:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's not even about death. Do you realize how slow and painful crucifixion is?

Still, I must admit that many of his followers kept their faith much better in similar circumstances.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineergot
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2334837 - 02/14/04 05:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly! How many martyrs readily accepted death? I dunno... it seems very odd to me that Jesus would feel so vulnerable and abandoned...


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Offlinegreenhaze
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2334976 - 02/14/04 06:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

maybe he didn't really say it.....it wouldn't be unusual for something to be added to a bible story for dramatic effect...just an idea


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: greenhaze]
    #2335035 - 02/14/04 06:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That is a good idea :smile:

Even if he did say it...I'm sure he had his reasons.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlineergot
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: psyka]
    #2335039 - 02/14/04 06:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think anything added to the Bible would only be placed there to further validate Jesus's divinity and infallibility. I highly doubt a person/group would create such an example of lost faith.

And you say he had his reasons to say it... well, I want to know what they were...

-ergot


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2335057 - 02/14/04 06:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

maybe he realized at the last moment that he wasnt the messiah.

sens e?


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2335109 - 02/14/04 07:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

perhaps theres a deeper meaning


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: CleverName]
    #2335195 - 02/14/04 07:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe he was questioning mankind?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (02/14/04 07:47 PM)


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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2335226 - 02/14/04 07:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There is probably no scripture more misunderstood than Jesus? cry from the cross, "My God. My God. Why hast thou forsaken me?" Did Jesus Christ really utter these words? Would Jesus have accused his heavenly Father of such an act of desertion? Did God really abandon His only begotten son as he was dying on the cross?

The difficulty with Matthew 26:47 is due to an error in translation. "Forsaken" is the wrong choice for the translation in this verse.

"Eli" means "my God." Lama, or lemana means "why" or "for what purpose" and always introduces a question. It occurs 53 times in the Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament and it is translated "why" 45 times, "what" 5 times, and "for what purpose" 3 times. "Sabachthani" comes from sebaq meaning to leave, forgive, allow, reserve, or spare.

The Greek word translated forsaken, can mean to leave in the sense of forsaking and abandoning, or to leave in the sense of sparing or allowing to remain. The context determines the meaning.

It is very interesting to note that the Greek version of Matthew contains these original Aramaic words of Jesus. For some reason the Greek translators decided to transliterate the original Aramaic of Jesus for these few words. Why?


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o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: Atomisk]
    #2335560 - 02/14/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Orrrrr...... Maybe Jesus died an atheist.....:stoned:


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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: Spokesman]
    #2335568 - 02/14/04 10:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hehe, sure, anythings possible


--------------------
o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: Spokesman]
    #2335636 - 02/14/04 10:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How do you know he was not asking mankind why they have foresaken him?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineFrog
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2335835 - 02/15/04 01:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My understanding is that it was Jesus' "human-ness" coming out, at the last minute. That there was an absence of God, for the brief time that Jesus was literally dying a physical death for the sins of mankind, and Jesus felt God's absence.

And therefore, "Why have you forsaken me."

I think we were talking about this on another thread. Whether there is literally a "hell" where we will be tortured for the rest of eternity, or whether hell is merely the absence of God.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesakura
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: ergot]
    #2335956 - 02/15/04 02:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

He was actually quoting the Old Testament (I've forgotten where it was, but it is a quote. Look in a chain reference Bible and you can trace it if you want).

As to why... whoo hard question that one.

OK, here goes...

God is Holy (pure) and cannot be in the presence of Sin

On the cross Jesus 'became' Sin ("cursed is he who is hung on a tree" - Leviticus "He who was without Sin became Sin so that we might be justified before God" - Paul said it somewhere...)

Jesus actually is God (separate in a sense, so that he could be, legally, a true man, but "born of God, through the Holy Spirit")

Without sin or any barriers such as fallen mankind have, He was in constant communion with God. But, when he became the "scapegoat" (also Leviticus), he 'became' Sin and that communication was broken.

So... Jesus had to be forsaken by God in order to pay the price for the Sin of mankind (which is what a lot of Biblical scholars think he was sweating blood about at Gethsemene... he could handle the nails, but the excommunication had him worried...)


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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: sakura]
    #2336083 - 02/15/04 02:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nice explanation.    :thumbup:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2336148 - 02/15/04 03:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)


Quote:

Why don't you get nailed to a cross and left to die and see how well you keep your faith?




I'd probably be pretty cross.

Oh, here's a fun joke:

What is the difference between Jesus and a portrait of Jesus?

It only takes one nail to hang the portrait. Or so I hear.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
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OfflineFrog
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Re: Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2336164 - 02/15/04 03:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Do you think God has a sense of humor???


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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