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Offlinecube talk
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can anyone confirm this?
    #7635983 - 11/14/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

4,000 years before Jesus was even born to the ancient land of Egypt. Here, over six thousand years ago, the Egyptians carved their spiritual belief system into stone using hieroglyphics. They left behind a very detailed description of their Gods, Kings and spiritual belief practices. A list of the names of all the gods of Egypt would fill pages. But all these gods were only forms, attributes or phases of Ra, the solar god, who himself was the supreme symbol or metaphor for God. Horus, the son of Osirus and Isis, is himself an aspect of Ra. The ancient Egyptians believed that the sun was their god Osirus and the stars were all kings who ruled the heavens. They also believed that their god Osirus had an earthborn son named Horus who was conceived through Immaculate Conception to a virgin mother. Very much like, if not identical to, the Christian beliefs concerning the birth of Jesus. Stories about the life of Horus had been circulating for many, many centuries before Jesus’ birth. If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the Christians who incorporated the similarities into Jesus’ biography the myths and legends of Horus, not vice-versa. Now things start getting a little weird here.


Some of the titles the Egyptians had for their worshipped Horus included The Good Shepherd, The Lamb Of God, The Bread Of Life, The Son Of Man, The Word, The Fisher, The Messiah and The way, the truth and the light. When Horus was born, Herut (a tyrant), had thousands of children slaughtered trying to kill the newborn Messiah. In Christian beliefs it was Herod (very similar name to Herut) who had thousands of children slaughtered trying to kill the newborn baby Jesus. Both Jesus and Horus were teachers in the temples at the age of 12 and were baptized at the age of 30 with no data available on either of them for 12 years. When Horus was baptized, his baptiser (Anup) was beheaded whereas Jesus’ baptiser John the Baptist was also beheaded.

Both Jesus and Horus were believed to have walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick and restored sight to the blind. Horus also rose the dead and stilled the sea by their power - Does this remind you of anyone? Both Jesus and Horus were crucified on a cross between two thieves, buried in a cave and were resurrected three days later. Both Jesus and Horus had twelve helpers (or disciples). The 12 helpers of Horus were the 12 deities who make up the 12 signs of the zodiac (also known as the horoscope or “Horus-scope?”). There have been discovered nearly two hundred instances of correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus.

While I’m on the subject of Egyptian worship I want to bring another little known fact to your attention. This isn’t a coincidence, and it isn’t something I made up, but I think you will find it very amazing and I encourage you to check it out for yourself. The ancient Egyptians were star worshippers and followed the movements of our stars and planets very closely. The constellation they paid the most attention to, and wrote the most about was the constellation of Orion (the great hunter).


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: cube talk]
    #7636033 - 11/14/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There does seem to be some Jesus-Horus connection(just as there is a Jesus-Osiris connection, a Jesus-Mithras connection, etc.), but IMHO it has been way overplayed. I don't really have the patience right now to look up and address each point, but someone else did it for me in a previous thread on this same subject(which I am also too lazy to look up). Essentially, some of the claims are true, some are false, and some are really reaching. My best guess is that Jesus was a real person whose biographers chose to emphasize those aspects of his life which mirrored themes common to the mythology of the time.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: cube talk]
    #7636037 - 11/14/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ra rules :thumbup:

(our solar system.)

My vote for a god like being as all life on earth is dependent.


I was just checking out the Orion nebula this morning in the scope.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Icelander]
    #7636060 - 11/14/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I shot this a few years ago one night in the Florida Keys.

Clicky to enlarge >>


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinecube talk
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Icelander]
    #7636063 - 11/14/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:crazy: hmm So it's only somewhat true? Or what?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Icelander]
    #7636068 - 11/14/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I was just checking out the Orion nebula this morning in the scope.




He was actually checking out the nighbors...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Diploid]
    #7636080 - 11/14/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I shot this a few years ago one night in the Florida Keys.

Clicky to enlarge >>




But I was the one who exploded the star. :wink:


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Offlinecube talk
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7636082 - 11/14/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
There does seem to be some Jesus-Horus connection(just as there is a Jesus-Osiris connection, a Jesus-Mithras connection, etc.), but IMHO it has been way overplayed. I don't really have the patience right now to look up and address each point, but someone else did it for me in a previous thread on this same subject(which I am also too lazy to look up). Essentially, some of the claims are true, some are false, and some are really reaching. My best guess is that Jesus was a real person whose biographers chose to emphasize those aspects of his life which mirrored themes common to the mythology of the time.




Thats interesting, so he could have been the second coming himself of a person way before him and so on? Say like moses was the one before him, then horus etc etc

That is of course assuming that he really was what christians profess.


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Offlinecube talk
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Diploid]
    #7636087 - 11/14/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I shot this a few years ago one night in the Florida Keys.

Clicky to enlarge >>




wormhole :strokebeard: :strokebeard:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Diploid]
    #7636165 - 11/14/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That's beautiful. PM me sometime and tell me all about your telescope.:thumbup: I'm a big optics fan on a budget. (but I can dream about your scope)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Icelander]
    #7636180 - 11/14/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

but I can dream about your scope




Never heard it called that before. :penis:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7636186 - 11/14/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You're not a swinger.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecycoshitzo
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Icelander]
    #7644631 - 11/16/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Any sources you could post a link to? It's intriguing but I want to go more in depth with this.


--------------------
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

Your world is how you perceive it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: cycoshitzo]
    #7644639 - 11/16/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Just google swingers.:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: cube talk]
    #7644994 - 11/16/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cube talk said:
4,000 years before Jesus was even born to the ancient land of Egypt. Here, over six thousand years ago, the Egyptians carved their spiritual belief system into stone using hieroglyphics. They left behind a very detailed description of their Gods, Kings and spiritual belief practices. A list of the names of all the gods of Egypt would fill pages. But all these gods were only forms, attributes or phases of Ra, the solar god, who himself was the supreme symbol or metaphor for God. Horus, the son of Osirus and Isis, is himself an aspect of Ra. The ancient Egyptians believed that the sun was their god Osirus and the stars were all kings who ruled the heavens. They also believed that their god Osirus had an earthborn son named Horus who was conceived through Immaculate Conception to a virgin mother. Very much like, if not identical to, the Christian beliefs concerning the birth of Jesus. Stories about the life of Horus had been circulating for many, many centuries before Jesus’ birth. If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the Christians who incorporated the similarities into Jesus’ biography the myths and legends of Horus, not vice-versa. Now things start getting a little weird here.


Some of the titles the Egyptians had for their worshipped Horus included The Good Shepherd, The Lamb Of God, The Bread Of Life, The Son Of Man, The Word, The Fisher, The Messiah and The way, the truth and the light. When Horus was born, Herut (a tyrant), had thousands of children slaughtered trying to kill the newborn Messiah. In Christian beliefs it was Herod (very similar name to Herut) who had thousands of children slaughtered trying to kill the newborn baby Jesus. Both Jesus and Horus were teachers in the temples at the age of 12 and were baptized at the age of 30 with no data available on either of them for 12 years. When Horus was baptized, his baptiser (Anup) was beheaded whereas Jesus’ baptiser John the Baptist was also beheaded.

Both Jesus and Horus were believed to have walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick and restored sight to the blind. Horus also rose the dead and stilled the sea by their power - Does this remind you of anyone? Both Jesus and Horus were crucified on a cross between two thieves, buried in a cave and were resurrected three days later. Both Jesus and Horus had twelve helpers (or disciples). The 12 helpers of Horus were the 12 deities who make up the 12 signs of the zodiac (also known as the horoscope or “Horus-scope?”). There have been discovered nearly two hundred instances of correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus.

While I’m on the subject of Egyptian worship I want to bring another little known fact to your attention. This isn’t a coincidence, and it isn’t something I made up, but I think you will find it very amazing and I encourage you to check it out for yourself. The ancient Egyptians were star worshippers and followed the movements of our stars and planets very closely. The constellation they paid the most attention to, and wrote the most about was the constellation of Orion (the great hunter).




why not instead look up info on zeitgeist?

i have made several posts detailing where that information comes from and why it is mostly false

if you are that interested use the search function

also... i am not sure this is philosophy


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: cycoshitzo]
    #7645008 - 11/16/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cycoshitzo said:
Any sources you could post a link to? It's intriguing but I want to go more in depth with this.



it is from a few people, none of them egyptologists or even archaeologists

that info was made popular recently by the 911 conspiricy film zeitgeist, unfortunately


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: cube talk]
    #7645155 - 11/16/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with Silversoul here. I've posted aspects of these things, and Egyptian religion was never codified, deities' aspects oftentimes were shared or ambiguous (e.g., 'Eye of Re,' 'Eye of Horus, 'Eye of Osirus'), and the Early, Middle and Late Kingdoms showed lots and lots of religious evolution. Tehuti [Thoth] was originally represented as a baboon, then the Ibis-headed humanoid (coincidentally, I saw half a dozen Ibis' roosting on my neighbor's roof a few hours ago).

There seems to be conceptual parallels in the Osirus-Horus-Isis Holy Family (not to mention Isis and Horus as the original Madonna and Child), as well as the original Holy Trinity. Themes of Judgement and Resurrection are indeed Egyptian, but Isis conceived magickally with an artificial phallus (the only part of Osirus' dis-membered [pun intended] body which she did not recover).

Only a complete rube who has read little or nothing about the history of religions could think that Biblical themes arose with the Iesus stories. If you read the Rev. John Shelby Spong's book Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes, you'll see the extent to which the New Testament stories were midrashic 'completions' of Old Testament prophesies. The stories about Iesus were intentionally written to focus all of OT references to a Messiah (e.g., Isaiah 53, the 'suffering servant' passages) on a singular figure. Look at the 22nd Psalm. It begins with:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Which is what Iesus was alleged to have spoken while on the cross according to Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34, but not Luke. Look at line 16 ff:

16 "...the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones:
they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them,
and cast lots upon my vesture."

These few lines are elaborated in the story-lines of Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24 and Luke 23:34 - hands and feet pierced with nails, centurians casting bones [rolling dice] for Iesus' seamless garment. They are portrayed as fulfillments of these OT writings, but in fact, they were beautifully written to appear that way!

So there are archetypal themes that first appeared in Egyptian religious thought and some of Egyptian religion entered into Hebrew thought via Joseph and Mose[s] [an Egyptian name like Thutmose], along with dream interpretation and magick. The Jewish Talmud speaks of Iesus as a magician. Isis is Goddess of magick, but it is taught to her by Thoth.

For Spong, the NT is a recapitulation of OT themes, with names changed. The slaughter of the innocents which Moses escaped became the slaughter of innocents that Iesus escaped, for example. Moses' mother's name was Miriam, what do you think the Anglicized Mary is in Hebrew? Miriam. Was there a reporter in Nazareth (not Bethlehem - another insertion) to record the baby-in-the-manger story? Read the book and see. These truths cannot be blinked. Only someone with blinders on could fail to see these things, and those with blind faith may have some kind of faith, but they are nonetheless blind and what is worse, they like it that way.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Diploid]
    #7645163 - 11/16/07 05:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

WOW! Nice pic! what was the temperature and humidity like when you took that?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20071116/sc_space/leonidmeteorshowerpeaksthisweekend


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7645207 - 11/16/07 06:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks!

That was at the 1996 Winter Start Party on Summerland Key just south of Marathon. It's hosted by the Southern Cross Astronomical Society every year.

The weather that night was pretty much exactly like the weather we're feeling here in Miami right now: absolutely beautiful in they daytime and light sweater weather at night. The humidity was low, which contributed to the clarity of the picture. The only difference from our current weather was that there was very little wind.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Diploid]
    #7645282 - 11/16/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What kind of telescope did you use. Did you have some kind of photo processor attached. I had a flakey girlfriend in 1993-4 who wanted to use her entire life-savings to buy a tracking telescope with a processor to convert the images to computer imaging. She knew nothing about basic astronomy, and fortunately for her she never did anything, but she used to drag me down to F.I.U. south campus on Friday nights to attend some astronomy society meeting. There were amateur astronomers who would gather in Elaine Gordon Park in North Miami, some with their home-made, hand-ground scopes.

Can you identify the nebula? Which constellation it appeared in? I think I've only seen the Ring nebula (M57?) and the Dumbell nebula in Lyra, both through a friend's 8" reflector. I did see Mercury's transit across the Sun and a partial solar eclipse through filters, as well as comet Kohotek, through that scope.

I've looked through that huge copper refractor they kept at the Miami Planetarium to see the north pole of Mars. They took that scope to Islamorada in 86 when Haley's comet was visible, but the line was long and the night cloudy so I didn't get in line.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7645306 - 11/16/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

While I realize the mythological parallels, I think some people take it a bit too far. Alexander the Great could be said to have many mythological parallels in his life, but no one doubts that he existed. What annoys me the most is when people are so reductionist as to say that Christianity is merely sun worship. Archetypes recur both in mythology AND in real life. I am certainly willing to grant that the story of Jesus may have been mythologically enhanced, but I suspect he was a real prophet who lived in 1st century Judea. Even some of those aspects of his life which parallel other myths may have actually happened, and the authors of the gospels cherry-picked those aspects and emphasized them in order to give greater credence to the messianic claims. In fact, if he was the messiah, I would expect his life to take on mythological dimensions.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7645397 - 11/16/07 07:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Even though Albert Schweitzer, in his Quest for the Historical Jesus, and more recently, Freke & Gandy in their Gnostic books came to the conclusion that Jesus was not a historical personage, I do not subscribe to that theory. I tend toward your take on the matter. I still cannot claim to know with absolute certainty, but then again, what can anyone know with absolute certainty other than immediate experience?

Sun worship was far more numinous a thing than what beach-loving or Neo-Pagan revelling moderns can experience today. I think it would be more modernist thinking to assume that mere hedonism with or without a ritualistic flavor is all that ancient people experienced. They had no idea the size or distance of the Sun, and its warmth and light was no doubt much more an immediate experience of Life itself than it is for us. So while you don't like Christianity being marginalized as mere Sun worship, let's not marginalize Sun worship from our modernist perspective.

I'm certain that 'miracles' (AKA synchronicities) constellate to a MUCH higher degree around really High human beings. They seemed to constellate around my subjective awareness during my early tripping days and I wonder if the type of synchronicities were blatent enough to be seen objectively by others who surrounded such High beings. These events could have been recorded as 'withering the fig tree,' but I think it more likely that such stories are illustrations of miraculous/synchronistic events, like Richard Wilhelm's story about 'The Rainmaker' who was 'in the Tao.'
http://www.ralphmag.org/BN/why.html


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7645582 - 11/16/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What kind of telescope did you use. Did you have some kind of photo processor attached.

OK, here's the whole technical story for that pic.

That was shot through an 8" Meade Schmidt-Cassegrain reflector on a polar-aligned equatorial clock to track the stars as they moved. I sold it about 10 years ago to buy a 12", something I've regretted since. Even though it was a little scope, it had outstanding optics.

Anyway, I used a Cannon SLR at the telescope's prime focus. This was before the digital camera revolution. The film was Fuji Color Film 400 speed. This is one of the primo films for astrophotography because it responds well to a process called Gas Hyper-sensitization where the film is placed in a sealed canister, the air is evacuated, then the cannister is pressurized to a few hundred PSI with hydrogen gas for a few days. This causes a chemical change in the film that increases its speed without increasing the grain.

Now, remember that the scope was mounted on an equatorial clock drive to track the stars. This works great as-is for viewing with your eye, but the clock is not accurate enough for long-exposure photography. The reason is that the mechanical gears in the clock mechanism are not perfect and so the drive speeds up and slows down slightly as the imperfections in the gears move around. These tracking errors have to be compensated for or the images of stars will be short lines instead of pinpoints because they'd move back and forth on the film in step with the cyclical clock gear imperfections.

To correct for this, the camera is actually mounted on a special guiding adapter that splits off a little bit of light from a 'guide star' and sends it to an eyepiece with a reticle engraved.

When I was ready to begin the exposure, I adjusted the reticle so that the guide star fell exactly at the cross-hairs. Then I used a controller that very slightly biases the clock drive faster and slower depending on which button I press.

I put my eye to the guiding eyepiece, opened the shutter, then watched the guide star very carefully. When I noticed it moving slightly left due to clock error, I pressed the 'faster' button and re-centered the guide star. When I noticed it going the other way, I did the opposite.

This went on for 4 hours until the exposure was complete and I closed the shutter and sat down exhausted.

That was back then, 10 years ago. Today, CCD technology (the sensors in digital cameras) has advanced to the point where I have an automatic guider that looks at the guide star for me and does all the micro-adjusting to the clock while I sit by the scope and relax.

Ain't technology great!

F.I.U. south campus on Friday nights to attend some astronomy society meeting

That's the Southern Cross Astronomical Society. I was a director for many years until I moved to Boca Raton and the drive to Miami every Friday night became too much of a pain.

There were amateur astronomers who would gather in Elaine Gordon Park in North Miami

We used to also meet at Old Cutler Park way down south near Tamiami Airport and once a month on the new moon at Mahogany Hammock inside Everglades National Park.

Can you identify the nebula? Which constellation it appeared in?

Sure, it's M42, also known as the Orion Nebula. The M stands for Messier, the guy who first cataloged 100+ of the brightest objects up there including all the bright galaxies and nebulae.

M42 is naked eye under dark skies. If you look at Orion's belt, the west-most star is named Alnitak. Just below Alnitak and almost in line with Rigel (Orion's left foot) is where M42 lives.

Looks kinda like this:

Code:

*




* * *

@ <-- M42



*



Hope that renders right on your browser.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7645729 - 11/16/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I agree with Silversoul here. I've posted aspects of these things, and Egyptian religion was never codified, deities' aspects oftentimes were shared or ambiguous (e.g., 'Eye of Re,' 'Eye of Horus, 'Eye of Osirus'), and the Early, Middle and Late Kingdoms showed lots and lots of religious evolution. Tehuti [Thoth] was originally represented as a baboon, then the Ibis-headed humanoid (coincidentally, I saw half a dozen Ibis' roosting on my neighbor's roof a few hours ago).




great post


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: Diploid]
    #7646309 - 11/16/07 11:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the detailed response Diploid. Messier objects I know a little about. I knew a Professor Christie from NASAs Greenbelt office. He was one of those credited with the discovery of Chiron in the 80s. His wife Charlene, the secretary for my department at U. Maryland used to say that her husband wanted to name Chiron after her, but had to abide by the Greek scheme. Pluto/Hades and Chiron the ferryboatman who carried dead souls to Hades.

If you were at E. Gordon Park in 1994, and at F.I.U., it is possible that we've already met! That would be interesting in a coincidental way, would it not?

A pic of my home lab at the end of high school with the refractor given to me on my 6th birthday (1959)!



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7646312 - 11/16/07 11:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: can anyone confirm this? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7646344 - 11/16/07 11:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you were at E. Gordon Park in 1994, and at F.I.U., it is possible that we've already met! That would be interesting in a coincidental way, would it not?

That would be a cool coincidence. It's a small world...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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