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 RebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
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 Homosexuality and The Bible 
#765777 - 07/21/02 07:06 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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One of the major problems I have with Christianity and other similar religions is their belief toward homosexuality. I have met so many "Christians" in my life who claim that gay people are going to hell "because the Bible says so." I have even been shown passages from the Bible that "prove" this is true.
I was hoping somebody who agrees with this could help me understand why this would be so. I thought God was supposed to love all people unconditionally and forgive people for their sins.
If being gay is a sin, does this mean that gay people must repent for the fact that they are homosexual in order to have any chance of getting into heaven? This seems silly to me because being gay is not something you choose or something you can choose to change. Why would God make you repent for something like this?
My personal beliefs are that men wrote the Bible, and some of those men were homophobic. Thus they included anti-gay passages in the Bible in hopes that homosexuality would be practically erradicated if it was seen as a sin punishable by God.
Now, in modern times, many homophobic people use these passages to justify their fear, prejudice, and hatred. I have a big problem with this because I thought that Christians are supposed to have love for their fellow man no matter what; just as God loves all unconditionally. It is no wonder to me why so many gay people are afraid to come out of the closet, and why so many gay people commit suicide.
Comments?
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Namaste.
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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 Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#765893 - 07/21/02 07:42 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Revelation
ॐ
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: World Spirit]
#766392 - 07/22/02 02:50 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Enter is correct. Fear God, for he is an angry God. And prone to making mistakes.
Oh, and you can't buy alcohol before 12:30 on a Sunday either. God hates that. I'm glad that someone 2000 years ago found about this. Otherwise we would all be buying alcohol on Sundays, and we wouldn't even know that God was secretly frowning down on us from the sky. What would that be like?
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RebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: World Spirit]
#766560 - 07/22/02 05:10 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks, enter. That was really enlightening for me. As I've said before, I don't really know much about the Bible or the word of God. The only knowledge I have is from "Christians" I have known in my personal life.
One problem that I still have is that SO many Christians look at gay people as BAD. Many of them that I've seen or met are actually mean and hateful towards gay people. Some wont even associate with gay people just because they are gay and the Bible says that is a sin.
Do you think this is wrong?
Like you said, the same thing is true with those who masterbate, those who fornicate, those who even lust. All of these things are sins, and I think it's safe to say that they are committed by everyone who belongs to the human race. So why is it okay for certain Christians to discrimnate against homosexuals when they are sinners in some way themselves?
That is what does not make sense to me... Like I said in my first post, I think that many "Christians" use those passages in the Bible to justify their hate and fear. I personally don't think that those Christians are being Christian in the true sense of the word. What do you think about this?
Peace,
RebelSteve
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Namaste.
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 Curious_George
You want abaloon?
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 1,065
Loc: La La Land
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#766566 - 07/22/02 05:15 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, if that's true about masturbation..
HOLD ON SATAN I"M ON MY WAY !!!
CG
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************************************.>>>>>
Here Johny,, have a joint.. all your friends are doing it!!
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#766599 - 07/22/02 05:41 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Anonymous
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#766779 - 07/22/02 07:03 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Jesus
The central message of the Bible is salvation through repentance and the forgiveness of sins.
After the commandment to love God we are commanded to love "our neighbor as ourselves".
Seems like many "christians" haven't read the Bible or do not follow what it says.
My 2 cents.
Cheers,
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RebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: ]
#766969 - 07/22/02 08:32 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Seems like many "christians" haven't read the Bible or do not follow what it says.
Hey, I guess we agree on something, Mr_Mushrooms! 
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Namaste.
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#767006 - 07/22/02 08:42 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Anonymous
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#767067 - 07/22/02 09:06 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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LOL! Yes, I'll make a note of it. I think it is great that we seem to enjoy each others posts and yet do not agree on very much. Too bad that isn't more common!
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BuzzDoctor
Runs withscissors
Registered: 08/10/99
Posts: 948
Loc: Atlantis
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#767703 - 07/22/02 12:58 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Much of what I've read about King James who authorized one of the most popular versions of the bible indicated that he was a homosexual.
Personally, I believe that people are born homosexual or straight or bi, I don't think it's a consience choice. If that's the case then God must have made these people that way. So then homosexuality shouldn't be a sin. The argument of course is that some people are born to enjoy murder, blah blah blah ...
I think that if you live your life not hurting other people and are kind and helpful, your afterlife will be ok.
Buzz
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Is the glass half-full or half-empty? I say it is both.
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: BuzzDoctor]
#768168 - 07/22/02 03:33 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Personally, I believe that people are born homosexual or straight or bi, I don't think it's a consience choice. If that's the case then God must have made these people that way. So then homosexuality shouldn't be a sin. The argument of course is that some people are born to enjoy murder, blah blah blah ...
Homosexuality is a perversion just like Pedophilia and fetishism. When you have a deeper relationship or strong belief in God, these lusts die out. Homosexuals don't go to hell, but Sodomites who believe their actions are right, and do not repent, may spend some time in hell (forever if they don't believe in the existence of a Creator). Throughout the Muslim world, their is a minority of homosexual men who do not act out their animal desires at all or commit anything haraam. They pray, fast, and work for the Creator. They obey Him completely. For fear of God is a sincere belief in God.
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Anonymous
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: World Spirit]
#768183 - 07/22/02 03:36 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Enter, I'd love to see bible references to the 'he doesnt love all people thing.' Would be a wonderful slap in the face to my incredibly overzealous Catholic family members.. 
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: ]
#768270 - 07/22/02 04:03 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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11polakie11
PeripheralCustodian
Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 112
Loc: G-Ville FLA
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#769719 - 07/23/02 06:25 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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this may have been said, and the post may be old..but here's my response..
christianity was *was* based on the teachings of jesus christ...the bible was written by men, men who were NOT jesus..so taking something that was an oral tradition for hundreds of eyars and breaking it down into a text after hundreds of years of translations and changes does not mean it is the final say in how things are. HOmosexuality became a no no in the bible because, according to the history channel, the origional scriptors of the bible beleived that semen was the "fluid of life" and so homosexuality would be a waste of the seed..and so they made a little adendum in the bible about it being evil...once again, men wrote the bible...jesus and god did not, and thats who christians are supposed to follow..
jesus never said anything about who not to love...he said to love, be compassionate and seek the kingdom of god, have faith (and thats all inside..)
people are actually much more stupid in these enlightened modern times than ancient peoples were..
adam
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-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_
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Anonymous
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#771726 - 07/23/02 07:45 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hi Rebel S -
Just a quick POV, that may help with why 'Xians' in general dont 'like' gays.
Back in the Day (When the folks were writing the Books later to be known as the Bible (which just means Book)
Paganism, or Polytheism was the Norm. From Egypt to Rome, most people believed in a pantheon of Gods to help with Lifes foibles, and big stuff.
Many of the tenents of Christanity/Islam/Jewdiasm were structured around telling a Pagan (nature worshipper) from a 'real Jew/Muslim/Christain.
The Gay Hating came into play as an after effect - Incase you didint know, most religious rituals were for Fertitly/ harvest. before they were used for submission.
In these rituals, sex played an important part. there were sects of Dianics (worshoippesof Diana, and thought to be Lesbian in nature) And Dionisian Followers (Dionysis was the God of Wine & Revelry, and a lot of gay men were in his Cult) so you see, gay bashing was Just 'Good for Business" which is all Religion is.
In order to weed out a good 'christian/jew/muslim/ from a Pagan, you could set up a law preventing man on man - woman on woman rituals from taking place -
Ever wonder why Jews dont eat pork - look it up.
Wonder why Muslims abhore Women during their Menses? - Look it up
its all very interesting.
Dont let a book writen by a handful of desert wanders, who's whole 'world' took place inside of a 30 mile radius dictate your life.
-OoD
PS- to al ofyou who hold the Bible/Talmud/Koran as truth, great.
I you intend on making a rebuttal, do NOT use these texts as a basis for why I am 'wrong' the argument would be rendered moot.
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CaliChronic
member
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 111
Loc: Gulf Coast, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
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 Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#771740 - 07/23/02 07:59 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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dont follow those teachings (or fairy tale books either) in the first place. it will get you nowhere except the place they put you in. look elsewhere. 
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overgrow
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mr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#778940 - 07/26/02 05:51 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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I must say, I have posted on the "invisible man" theory many times, but yet again, someone comes up with a different angle. And, damn, if all the "I love the invisible man","God is love", people just come POURING out of the woodwork.
There is no God. Get over it. Science is not perfect, it is based in REALITY; something one cannot say of God.
Just for kicks how about a rational refutation of this:
There are some people that believe, God is or could be, Love. If this is so then God's relationship with human beings is that of an ALL ENCOMPASSING love. As such those who have FAITH that God exists, that they love God and God loves them must question their relationship with God. In considering the realationship (with God) the person in question must ask ones self "is this a positive relationship; is this relationship harmful to me?".
The nature of RELIGION assures us that this is wrong, one must not question the relationship with God, one must have faith that God, and as an extension, his dogma, is infallable. To this end, religion, while purporting to be heralding the LOVE of GOD, brings about HATE. Hate of other religions, those who don't believe as "THEY" do and those who do not live as the particular dogma dictates. You have to look no further than your local law library to see how religion encompasses the very opposite of what God is purported to be. Religion's don't exist in love, they exist in HATE and conflict. Religion's, the world over, dictate the way a peson should live in obeisance of a certain God. There is no room for compromise, not when you are talking about religion; it's live "our" (whoever happens to be in power at the time) way or die.
This brings me to the next argument; RELIGION vs. GOD.
Invariably, when one discusses God or religion, the same arguments present themselves ad nauseum. One being, that God exists, the other being that god aka "the invisible man" does not exist. The second argument that surrounds the God vs. religion debate is which religion is praying to the RIGHT God? And, third, but MOST IMPORTANT, is the INDIVIDUAL relationship with God.
The mere act of believing or not is simplistic in nature but complex in makeing the decision to believe in God or not. Does God exist? Can I find any evidence of this being? Does the lack of evidence of existance, in itself, lend to the supposition that God does NOT exist? Or, does the lack of evidence of exitance lend itself to the supposition that God DOES exist? I can't answer this, not for anyone else anyway, the answer that FAITH is the answer is ludicrous. I have FAITH that the sun will rise tommorow, my faith is based on experience and science. but I am rational enough to know that a nuclear attack will make it irrelevant. Those who believe in God have no choice but to base their belief in experience, science cannot help them here. Those who do not believe in God have no choice but to base their belief in experience; science can't help them either. "My mother died; it was God's will" "My mother died; her heart stopped".
I'll skip the second argument; which religion is worshipping the correct God. It doesn't lend itself to this particular question of "Love vs. Hate and Religion vs. God". Besides, it would take me a couple of months to properly encompass that particular argument. I do, however , wish to address my arguments to the third proposition; "the individual's relationship with God".
It is this personal relationship with God that brings us to the lack of understanding between those that don't worship a God vs. those that do worship a God. What rational, faith, can exist in the worship of a being that cannot be counted on to engage us in a rational manner nor to engage us in a loving manner? Consider this, my child dies, it hurts, I ask God why, he dosen't answer. My friends and pastor tell me that it is God's will, that he, indeed, has a plan and my loss and pain is part of that plan. They go on to tell me that God still loves me, even though he allowed my most precious of possesions to die; my child, a part of me. They tell me that God may be testing my faith, that I should still continue to trust in God and to continue to have FAITH in his plan for me. Now, if I told a woman , in an abusive relationship, that her husband still loved her, that he had a plan, that he was beating the hell out of her and causing her pain just to test her love for him most of you would call me an idiot; and rightly so. The nature of RELIGION is that it trys to REMOVE the rational mind from the human being and force that person to continue in a very unpleasant and destructive relationship.
The nature of religion is that it holds God to standards we, as rational beings, would LOUDLY and FORCFULLY REJECT. Who, by a show of hands, would allow that some entity, perporting to love us would cause us pain and then have the unmitigated gall to tell us that we should just keep haveing FAITH?
Why should those that have FAITH, NOT, question their relationship with God? Will he get mad? Will he kill us? There is ONE thing and, one thing only, that religious FAITH has that no other rational relationship can ever give us; a means to live forever in happiness. It is this so-called promise that allows religion's to twist and corrupt the experience of believing in ANY GOD into just a way to control others.
Religion is not an acceptable, rational, positive relationship. Religion, extreme or otherwise, is a simple matter of using the spiritual nature of man to excise the rational, MORAL, nature of man. Speaking in VERY general terms, christians loath voodoo and witchcraft. They (christians) do their best to debunk other religious practices as evil, wrong, devil inspired (why do we need a devil?) or UNENLIGHTENED. Other religions use their dogma to control women; to keep them in their place or to use them as the scape goat of everything that goes wrong. Other religions use their religious dogma to control the lives of their parishioners or their clergy.
I debunk ALL religions as UNENLIGHTENED, I make no distinctions between any religion in this manner. All religions seek to CONTROL rational beings by the threat of everlasting terror and pain, religions use the "promise" of life everlasting to try to tear the rational mind from the human being. I have no beef with God, as such, I simply believe, and history proves me out, that religion is the baliwick of man and has little or nothing to do with a personal relationship with the God or Goddess that many would happily believe in, if not for the fear that they would involve themselves with some irrational religious doctorine.
I cannot prove that God exists and I cannot prove that God does not exist. But, I CAN prove, or at least bring into serious question, that God ever existed in a religious sense. Consider: the christian religion, old testament, God was a ferocious, vengeful God, he allowed NO sin to go unpunished (just ask the jews); then, from on "high" there was born a son of God and God allowed his son to be tortured and killed so that people might have a method of forgivness, so that even the most vile of sinners may have access to the "everlasting life in heaven". Is it only me that sees this as an underlying control mechanism; as a way to increase the pool of believers? Am I the only one that sees that RELIGION, at this period of world history, needed to purport some type of forgivness mechanism to continue to get people to worship a God, long since, considered,at the least, to be harsh and unforgiving?
The nature of man suggests that we are born moral beings, with the ability to think and act in a rational manner. We are capable of abstract thought, thus, leading us to also be spirtual beings. To consider the "WHY" "WHERE" and "HOW" of our existance. To ask these questions leads us to try to find a rational answer to them. The belief of a supreme being is not inherently irrational, but to build religion around this belief, especially the religions that man has built, IS IRRATIONAL.
It is only with religious fervor and hatred that a plant was made illegal, it is only with the hatred of religious dogma that women are treated as second class citizens. The mere fact that women are not, mostly, treated that way in western society's is that our society insisted on a more ENLIGHTEND treatment of women; in direct opposition to religious dogma. It is only with religous hatred that same sex lover's are treated as less than human.
We, those on the ethnobotanical boards, constantly look for enlightenment from our politicians, in the hope that one day we can all sit down at the same lake side and smoke the biggest, fattest, dooby every rolled, without fear of being Joe Bob's sexual plaything. I think that this will never happen and the reason is in our faces evey day; RELIGION. Only when religion is made to take a backseat to the needs of the individual. Only when religion becomes ENLIGHTEND enough to accept God as a loving being and not as the means to control others will we be free from the religious tyranny that has taken over the world. When a law is no longer based on "protecting me from me" and is NOT based in some religious dogma will we, those without FAITH, be able to seriously consider the question of God. Until that time, we look to other areas of our spirituality and hope that is enough, because the alternative is linked to religous dogma and religous dogma is, invariably, linked to hatred.
I make no apologies for being a rational being. I am also a spiritual being. I believe that a rational being CAN believe in a God, it is in our nature to seek out the spirituality of our being and to manifest it in some way. There is NO rational being that can believe in ANY religious dogma that seeks to control a persons actions. This is contrary to our nature, our intellect and to our constitutionaly protected rights (you knew I would get the constitution in there didn't you?). God may be around somewhere, but I doubt that you will find him in any unenlightend religious text. I can find my spirit in the simple act of fishing. It is one of my most favorite things to do. Not sport fishing, just baiting a hook in a shady piece of water, somewhere far enough from others that what I am smoking won't be a concern and far enough away from thirsty individuals; I don't think they would want to drink my particular brand of "tea".
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Anonymous
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: 11polakie11]
#779015 - 07/26/02 06:27 PM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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...'zackley what i was going to say.
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
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Re: Homosexuality and The Bible [Re: RebelSteve33]
#864538 - 09/04/02 10:12 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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The act of homosexual sex or fornication for that matter are both sins. Unrepentant sinners that die in their sins do go to hell. This is true. Same goes for thieves, idoloters and drunkards. If you repent and turn to Jesus he will forgive you and wash your sins from you. He will help you when you turn to him and help you not to sin anymore.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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