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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: whatsgrimace]
    #16164273 - 05/01/12 08:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The living creature before God's throne, also featured in Revelation.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblewhatsgrimace
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #16164283 - 05/01/12 08:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

so were those the good guys or the bad guys. i don't intend to blaspheme, just to get answers


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: whatsgrimace]
    #16164296 - 05/01/12 08:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Good guys (on God's side).


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #16166183 - 05/01/12 04:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

this bible is considered by pretty much anyone with any sort of serious education in theology to be "the bible". the more current version you get will have the more up to date scholarly analysis in the footnotes.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (05/01/12 04:52 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16166782 - 05/01/12 06:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

They are quite adept at criticising litteralist views and those of other sects, but have you ever heard anyone explain in positive terms how to read the book?




Sure.
"Look for what speaks to you and be open to a discussion with others."






How does that lead to a coherent reading of the bible?





I thought you were asking if I had ever heard someone who criticizes literal views provide in positive terms how to read the book? Because that's what I was addressing. As for how this makes the Bible coherent, it may not, but it does take the responsibility off an inanimate object such as a book (which cannot take the responsibility in the first place) and puts it onto the individual reading the book. It's the individual who makes it coherent or fails and that's true with science as well. Given a sample of 100 people off the street, how many could make coherent sense of a physics publication? Is it then safe to say that the physics publication is incoherent? How about if a coherent explanation is given by a physicist, but when an individual regurgitates it suddenly it sounds quite incoherent? How do we know that the physicist was actually giving a coherent presentation? It clearly wasn't coherent to the person they explained it to.

My problem with this line of inquiry is that the Bible was not created for a mass audience in its written form. Neither is a physics publication. So to expect either of these things to be coherent without the environmental context that drove their creation, is really asking a lot IMO.

Quote:

Previously you said you doubted railgun's claim regarding reading the bible 'litterally'




Nah, I doubted his claim about knowing the intention of the author's of the Bible. He might be right and he might be wrong, but claiming to know for certain is going to raise a considerable amount of doubt in me, given historical context. My doubt wasn't tied to anything else.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Kickle]
    #16169480 - 05/02/12 05:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
As for how this makes the Bible coherent, it may not, but it does take the responsibility off an inanimate object such as a book (which cannot take the responsibility in the first place) and puts it onto the individual reading the book.




But the problem with faith and rejection of reason still remains in any such treatment that can be at all consistant with the bible as god's word.  I don't really see much of a distinction between the "fundamentalists" and others on the topic of the harm they cause, despite this distinction being popular amongst those serving as appologists for religion, scripture.

In each case the person relies upon a text, whether scripture or dogma, that they must place above reason- if they don't, then I can't see in any sense how they are theists.  The non-litteral interpretations just allow someone to make up whatever interpretation they want and insist on it- the same problem as the 'fundamentalists' only with more flexible outcomes (though in practice I doubt there's much of a difference).

Either reason is your guide or you rely on supposed revelation of god's word- the later is problematic.

Quote:


It's the individual who makes it coherent or fails and that's true with science as well.




Supposedly- the whole purpose of this thread was to figure out how someone could be a theist and take the bible as revealed truth and yet interpret it in a coherent way that doesn't negate the prior conditions (and thus making them not christians and thus excluding their views from this inquiry).

I have doubts whether this can be done- mostly because it seems implausible and the great number of people who excuse non-litteralists whilst condemning the fundamentalists never offer any evidence such an interpretation can exist.  If it doesn't exist, then these people are simply not following the bible as they claim and there's no reason for them to.


Quote:



Given a sample of 100 people off the street, how many could make coherent sense of a physics publication?




What does it matter?  The physics publication is fallible and not revelation- there is no reason it need be coherent.  It can instead be wrong, flawed.  The theist claiming the bible to contain revelation then must show how their interpretations are consistent with this status- I suspect it isn't.  Its simply an equivocation seeking to obfuscate the situation enough to preven dissonance between their view of the bible, their theology, and reality.






Quote:

So to expect either of these things to be coherent without the environmental context that drove their creation, is really asking a lot IMO.




How do you justify that leap?  I'm not asking if any given person can rationalize their reading of the bible with their Christian faith and theism, I'm asking if it can be done at all.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16170237 - 05/02/12 11:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:



Does this single admission not demolish the whole reason for Christ in the first place- and hence the whole of Christianity?

That's just one example of problems that arise from trying to reconcile credulous belief in authority with reality, but is there any non-problematic one?




Is there any non-problematic system of thought, other than perhaps pure mathematics? Doesn't even physics have a problem with resolving quantum mechanics with relativity?


I think its plainly obvious that humans turn to fantasy to try to find security. My parents are atheists and I've always thought religious beliefs were bullshit. That said I've recently found the image of christ on the cross a potent symbol of an internal process that must occur when letting go of my ego. I have no idea if any priest would agree with my interpretation, but the symbol resonates with me. Is it because I've seen the image so many times? Is it because the image is revered by so many people and I've some how given the image importance because of this? I don't know, but I certainly don't need any literal meaning to put a symbolic meaning on the image. I don't even have to read the bible.

When taking psychedelics everything can become a powerful symbol to me. I remember once holding up a screwdriver and at that moment it wasn't just a screwdriver, it represented all of human technology and I felt great awe at its power. Does this symbolic representation conflict with the fact that the screwdriver was just a screwdriver and was not literally all of human technology? I don't think so.


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Edited by Freedom (05/02/12 03:45 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16170244 - 05/02/12 11:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm providing an interpretation of the Bible that I find coherent. I don't expect myself to understand every little detail of the Bible because it is an unrealistic expectation given my own ignorance of story origins and historical context. But I'm a theist. I also read a wide variety of writings from other religions, philosophers and scientists. There is no inherent conflict on my end and also the reason
that having the responsibility on the individual doing the reading is helpful in my case.

The purpose of the physics publication example was to illustrate the relative nature of coherence. What is coherent for one may not be for another. I don't think this is a bad thing.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblepsychotropicwhale
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16170250 - 05/02/12 11:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Read the midrash dude


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Offline4896744
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Kickle]
    #16171339 - 05/02/12 03:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm providing an interpretation of the Bible that I find coherent. I don't expect myself to understand every little detail of the Bible because it is an unrealistic expectation given my own ignorance of story origins and historical context. But I'm a theist. I also read a wide variety of writings from other religions, philosophers and scientists. There is no inherent conflict on my end and also the reason
that having the responsibility on the individual doing the reading is helpful in my case.

The purpose of the physics publication example was to illustrate the relative nature of coherence. What is coherent for one may not be for another. I don't think this is a bad thing.




You're a theist? :eek:


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: 4896744]
    #16171539 - 05/02/12 04:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm providing an interpretation of the Bible that I find coherent.





Yes, and so far as I've seen youre method, your views don't comport with the premises of the question:  a view that the bible is the word of god in the christian sense.  That said, you don't seem to offer any coherent interpretation so far as you've shown.  Simply believing whatever you want seems inconsistant with the premise that the bible is god's word and the basis for the correct theology. 

I allready know you can ignore the contradictions and not have a conflict in what's left, I want to know how the 'liberal' christians who still claim to be theists and christians and hold the bible to be the word of god produce a coherent message from the bible.

This has yet to be answered except by rejecting the premises entirely, such as by deciding certain parts are not god's word and not the basis for the correct theology.

Quote:

But I'm a theist.




And yet you don't appear to take the bible to be revelation from god and the foundation of a theology so it doesn't matter. 



Quote:

The purpose of the physics publication example was to illustrate the relative nature of coherence. What is coherent for one may not be for another. I don't think this is a bad thing.




And what does that have to do with anything?  I understand the point, I don't see the relevance.  I asked if a coherent message can be derived from the bible give the premises fundamental to christianity.  Whether or not any given person can accomplish this has no relevance that I can see, nor do you show any.

Quote:

Freedom said:

Is there any non-problematic system of thought, other than perhaps pure mathematics?




I don't know- who cares?

I don't purport to have revelation from an omniscient and omnipotent being that created the world and provided a theology for those he created in his image and loves.  You seem to offer the same point Kickle does, but it seems irrelevant for the same reason. Incoherent interpretations of some ordinary message are not inconsistent with that message being an ordinary message.  The lack of coherence in a message revealed to humanity by a loving, omniscient, creator of the universe for purposes of instructing humanity as to his wishes is inconsistent with this status.


Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm providing an interpretation of the Bible that I find coherent. I don't expect myself to understand every little detail of the Bible because it is an unrealistic expectation given my own ignorance of story origins and historical context. But I'm a theist. I also read a wide variety of writings from other religions, philosophers and scientists. There is no inherent conflict on my end and also the reason
that having the responsibility on the individual doing the reading is helpful in my case.

The purpose of the physics publication example was to illustrate the relative nature of coherence. What is coherent for one may not be for another. I don't think this is a bad thing.




You're a theist? :eek:





Yeah, that surprises me too.  I wonder what source he has as to the will of god that i seem to lack.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16171840 - 05/02/12 05:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

what exactly do you mean by, 'reducing the bible to just another mythical tale'?


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16171944 - 05/02/12 05:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

have you ever heard anyone explain in positive terms how to read the book?




I think this is asking the impossible, because its not literal. Its like asking for instructions on how to taste wine or listen to music. You have to taste, you have to listen. What more can you say? Music conveys emotion, but no one can tell you that you should feel x emotion when note y follows note z. Even if they did, I don't think you could use this intellectual knowledge to feel the emotion, its something spontaneous and if you don't feel it when you hear the music, then the music isn't working.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: 4896744]
    #16172103 - 05/02/12 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm providing an interpretation of the Bible that I find coherent. I don't expect myself to understand every little detail of the Bible because it is an unrealistic expectation given my own ignorance of story origins and historical context. But I'm a theist. I also read a wide variety of writings from other religions, philosophers and scientists. There is no inherent conflict on my end and also the reason
that having the responsibility on the individual doing the reading is helpful in my case.

The purpose of the physics publication example was to illustrate the relative nature of coherence. What is coherent for one may not be for another. I don't think this is a bad thing.




You're a theist? :eek:




:lol:

Yeah. I don't give any form it takes much credibility but I don't deny it either. I trust myself enough to let it be as it is.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Kickle]
    #16172129 - 05/02/12 06:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

John, no one can speak for another. I spoke from my own non-literal view and find it coherent. You don't have to because you aren't me :cheers:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16172225 - 05/02/12 07:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i'd like to offer a few points as well that may help us sort this out.

for starters, i think it would be good, at least for the sake of keeping this discussion focused, to work off the assumption that there is only one correct version of the bible out there. i've contributed what has been told to me by a few different scholars which bible seems to be the best. the debate over the quality of this bible's translation is certainly valid, and certainly being debated today, but that's a subject that's beyond my pay grade, and by my estimation everyone else's in this thread. aside from that, at least at our level, that doesn't have much to do with how the bible is interpreted by devotees.

i would classify interpretations of the bible in three large families:
the catholic (i'll lump in greek orthodox in this classification for simplicity), the protestant, and the mystical interpretation. in the case of the mystical interpretation, this interpretation also has catholic and protestant versions, but can stand alone by itself, hence the separate classification.

here's my basic rundown of each of these interpretations. someone please correct me if i'm wrong b/c as mentioned, i am not a religious scholar.

catholic - scripture has three or four different but parallel meanings that are each cumulatively abstracted from the receiver depending on their ability to reason. for example, if you're a simple person, you're going to get the moral, or pedagogical aspect of the teachings; the fable aspect so to speak. if you're not so simple, you'll get the pedagogical along with the metaphorical that allude to the mysteries of the soul and its relationship to the trinity. and if you're even brighter you'll catch the even deeper aspects that build on that mystery. classically, the people who get the most of it are the ones who are fit to enter the priesthood in order to propagate the cycle of spiritually evolving a population.

protestant - big difference from the catholic interpretation. going back to martin luther, there is only one message that's being conveyed, hence the lack of need for clergy (at least in the sense as the catholics have clergy) in protestant churches. effectively everyone is a priest.

moreover, when you talk about what's literal and what isn't, both the catholic and the protestant accept a mixture of both. generally speaking, both schools of thought accept the historicity of christ along with all of the miracles associated with his life, death and rebirth. as far as the rest of the doctrines go, there's just too much to summarize because of the diversity of opinions.

like i said, both catholic and protestant have mystical sects, but there are also "stand alone" mystical christianity sects like the theosophical society, who essentially believe that all of the bible is just allegorical. i don't know a lot about theosophy but that's my general impression. i'm interested in learning more about it because it's my understanding that it's something that a lot of high level christians like pastors and bishops etc. are personally into in spite of their day jobs.

hope that helps.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (05/02/12 07:18 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16175686 - 05/03/12 09:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
what exactly do you mean by, 'reducing the bible to just another mythical tale'?




I could hardly imagine how this could be more clear given the tedious descriptions of my thesis I've laid out previously.

Christians take the bible to be the word of god in some form or another.  You could also take the bible to describe mythical events but not being produced by god for the establishment of his theology on earth.  'Reducing the bible to just another mythical tale' means treating the bible the same way you'd treat any other old book appearing to describe historical events but containing fantastic tales and numerous inconsistencies.

If you dismiss portions of the bible due to disagreement with the message, it seems you must be acting inconsistently with the first view.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16175989 - 05/03/12 12:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

ok I'm just making sure, it sounds like the problem you're pointing out is simply taking some parts of the bible literally and some parts non literally.

I've never heard of people doing this, either people take it all as literal truth or all as non literal, or that its all literal and its all literal. I've never heard of anyone saying some parts are literal and some parts are non literal.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16176238 - 05/03/12 01:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
ok I'm just making sure, it sounds like the problem you're pointing out is simply taking some parts of the bible literally and some parts non literally.




Yes, I do think this occurs and is a problem for those claiming the bible to have some theological authority, but more to the point is that I doubt it is even possible to take the bible non-litterally and still produce a coherent meaning without either arbitrary exceptions/rules or rejecting the premise that the bible is god's word.

Quote:


I've never heard of people doing this, either people take it all as literal truth or all as non literal, or that its all literal and its all literal.




I've not heard anyone admit they do so, but i think many take the bible literally in some parts and not in the other.  Generally they seem to make up some ad hoc interpretive method to avoid the parts they don't like.  For example, many christians, including those who generally take the bible as needing some degree of interpretation (such as catholics) will claim that all the rules regarding how to keep slaves, sell your children, prepare food, and kill anyone who works on the sabbath are not relevant somehow to christians today.  Yet they will take the other passages of the very same book (leviticus, for example) to litterally condemn homosexuality.  (they have another out too: they claim the sermon on the mount repealed the law, yet they demand other laws be enforced such as the ten commandments and the gay thing)


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Offlinetawnchan
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16176453 - 05/03/12 02:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What would it be like.. if the first version of the bible or any other bibles were written on something like Facebook?


--------------------
Before DMT...

"What is the meaning of life?" and "What happens after we die?"

After DMT...

"What am I?" and "How is it possible to just be? instead of I or mine?"

I spend a lot of time in my head.. you know.. that other dimension.  I love lucid dreams, the other other dimension.  I question about death.. the other other other dimension And I am learning how to make this one like the others.

That's a cool quote.. I've got to admit.. I just thought of it.. - Tawnchan


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