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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16176865 - 05/03/12 04:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

do you think anything non literal could could have logical consistency (which is what I take you to mean by coherent)?

It seems to me that a defining characteristic of the non literal is that it is not logical.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16176977 - 05/03/12 04:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
do you think anything non literal could could have logical consistency (which is what I take you to mean by coherent)?




Of course.

Literal=f(x)

non-literal interpretation could be, the absolute value of f(x)

The two are not equivalent, but the interpretation is a function of the litteral language, and hence introduces no incoherency, per se.  Further, it has no arbitrary exceptions or ad hoc rules.

There's a limitless number of ways to interpret anything, and like the mathmatical example, there's no reason any given one needs to be inconsistant or with ad hoc exceptions.  It just so happens that the interpretations of the bible are stymied by the contradictions in the text, the profoundly illogical and immoral instructions, and hence the believers tend to ignore it as it causes great dissonance.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16177023 - 05/03/12 04:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

the profoundly illogical and immoral instructions




While I completely agree that Christianity is an unsupported fairy tale for people scared of death, I disagree that following its commandments is illogical and immoral.

The thought of a meaningless and finite existence is too much for most people to handle apparently. In order to repress this admittance, it makes sense to cling to meaning systems that have lots of validation from peers. When you have tons of people pretending with you, it is much easier to keep doubts to a minimum.

They are essentially given the choice between constant terror or enough peace of mind to at least continue living and even have some enjoyment.  Since satisfying emotional yearnings is the goal of humans, it makes sense to hold back applying logic to a few areas so as to reap the emotional benefits.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16177127 - 05/03/12 05:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Christians take the bible to be the word of god in some form or another.  You could also take the bible to describe mythical events but not being produced by god for the establishment of his theology on earth.  'Reducing the bible to just another mythical tale' means treating the bible the same way you'd treat any other old book appearing to describe historical events but containing fantastic tales and numerous inconsistencies.

If you dismiss portions of the bible due to disagreement with the message, it seems you must be acting inconsistently with the first view.




an interesting counterpoint to your claim is that now (and perhaps always) it's important to be choosy about which things as a devotee someone accepts as part of their own spiritual worldview. a perfect example of this is women. historically, religious doctrine has been used as the marginalization and abuse of women, and christianity is by no means an exception. yet the vast majority of christian women subscribe to the value of gender equality. it's really not that cut and dry.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: millzy]
    #16177143 - 05/03/12 05:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

but it would be that cut and dry if you believed that god was omnipotent and honest and had written the bible (even if through man).

if god knows everything and is telling the truth, how can you disregard even one thing he says, even if it clashes with your humanistic values?


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Edited by Freedom (05/03/12 05:20 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: millzy]
    #16177192 - 05/03/12 05:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

the profoundly illogical and immoral instructions




While I completely agree that Christianity is an unsupported fairy tale for people scared of death, I disagree that following its commandments is illogical and immoral.




I didn't suggest to the contrary- I said the book's instructions are immoral and illogical.  Whether its logical to follow the illogical in certain circumstances is a different question.

Quote:

millzy said:


an interesting counterpoint to your claim is that now (and perhaps always) it's important to be choosy about which things as a devotee someone accepts as part of their own spiritual worldview. a perfect example of this is women. historically, religious doctrine has been used as the marginalization and abuse of women, and christianity is by no means an exception. yet the vast majority of christian women subscribe to the value of gender equality. it's really not that cut and dry.





yeah, and the mosques of the islamic world are full of women- despite the fact they are forced to be in cloth bags while entering in many areas.  Then they are forced into a little corner and allowed no contact with the men while praying. 

Christopher Hitchens has said he feels they put up with it in some cases where they aren't forced to by violence simply out of fear for the wellbeing of their children- though this seems somewhat unsatisfying for me.  While the islamic world does have a much reduced lifespan, still a good number of women are going to be unfertile and have grown children.  I imagine the cultural pressure for conformity and submission that women face is likely a factor, especially in muslim areas which are bigoted almost by definition.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16177216 - 05/03/12 05:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

that sounds like an ignorant position

it seems more of a cultural taboo relating to sex and sexual attraction

women aren't alowed to walk around with their crotch hanging out in western countries, so they are also forced to wear 'bags'


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Edited by Freedom (05/03/12 05:30 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16177247 - 05/03/12 05:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
but it would be that cut and dry if you believed that god was omnipotent and honest and had written the bible (even if through man).

if god knows everything and is telling the truth, how can you disregard even one thing he says, even if it clashes with your humanistic values?




the bible was divinely revealed. god didn't write anything. and as i mentioned in my rather lengthy reply yesterday, there is a myriad of views on how the bible is to be taken. the view you're describing is that of a fundamentalist. fundamentalism is hardly the only biblical perspective out there - in fact it's like the top 40 music of religion.

also, what do you mean by "humanistic" values? humanism, as a philosophical school of thought, was about religious reform but never outright dismissal. it is a razing criticism of scholasticism in the middle ages and a call for emphasis on how to perfect the individual in this world rather than prepare them for the next.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: millzy]
    #16177260 - 05/03/12 05:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

sorry i just meant a human perspective

so you're saying you could attribute the logical inconsistencies to the people who wrote the revelation down?  if they made mistakes how could you trust anything they wrote?


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Offline4896744
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16177267 - 05/03/12 05:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I didn't suggest to the contrary- I said the book's instructions are immoral and illogical.  Whether its logical to follow the illogical in certain circumstances is a different question.




Ya, you are right. You are always very consistent and precise with your writing, but I just thought it was a point worth making.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16177284 - 05/03/12 05:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
that sounds like an ignorant position

it seems more of a cultural taboo relating to sex and sexual attraction





What's ignorant about it? 

What does it "seem more of" than?  I don't recall attributing forcing women to stay inside cloth bags to anything, so I can't see how you can decide that attribution insufficient.  You say its "more of a cultural taboo"- relative to what?

Throughout this thread it seems like your making these objections founded on premises that weren't presumed.

Quote:

women aren't alowed to walk around with their crotch hanging out in western countries, so they are also forced to wear 'bags'




How does that follow?  In western countries women aren't allowed to have their crotch 'hanging out', therefore they are forced to wear bags?  Huh?


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16177287 - 05/03/12 05:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
the islamic world




you're arguing beside the point. islam is completely different. the koran is the word of god. the bible can be thought of as more of a message from god that, over the course of history, scholars have attempted to decipher as best as possible. there is a huge difference between christians and muslims in this sense. people use the term "muslim fundamentalist" and it's misleading because all muslims are fundamentalists. and not so coincidentally, this stasis in worldview is the root cause of all of the social problems in islamic society.

i take hitchens' opinions on this subject with an atom sized grain of salt, and this is why. you can't lump all this stuff together. you can't reduce these vastly differing, extremely complex sets of beliefs into one thing.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16177305 - 05/03/12 05:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
so you're saying you could attribute the logical inconsistencies to the people who wrote the revelation down?  if they made mistakes how could you trust anything they wrote?




i wouldn't say logical inconsistencies, but christianity continues to rewrite itself. it does so over very long periods of time, but it is a tradition that is changing. i think the main problem with this tradition is that it doesn't change quickly enough to fit the times. culture is now accelerating far beyond the rate that christianity is. perhaps we need something better. i don't know. :shrug:

i'm not christian btw.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (05/03/12 05:50 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: millzy]
    #16177308 - 05/03/12 05:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
the islamic world




you're arguing beside the point. islam is completely different. the koran is the word of god. the bible can be thought of as more of a message from god that, over the course of history, scholars have attempted to decipher as best as possible. there is a huge difference between christians and muslims in this sense. people use the term "muslim fundamentalist" and it's misleading because all muslims are fundamentalists. and not so coincidentally, this stasis in worldview is the root cause of all of the social problems in islamic society.





How does any of this suggest I'm "arguing beside the point", as you've said? 

Quote:


i take hitchens' opinions on this subject with an atom sized grain of salt, and this is why. you can't lump all this stuff together. you can't reduce these vastly differing, extremely complex sets of beliefs into one thing.




Where is it suggested he did?

Why can't you?

The Abrahamic theologies share a number of similarities and can easily be reduced to common traits.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: johnm214]
    #16177383 - 05/03/12 06:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
How does any of this suggest I'm "arguing beside the point", as you've said?




we're talking about christianity. you're talking about islam. the two traditions are different in regard to what's being discussed, therefore you are arguing beside the point.

Quote:

Why can't you?

The Abrahamic theologies share a number of similarities and can easily be reduced to common traits.




the abrahamic traditions also have a lot of differences, and in regard to how scripture is treated, none of them are alike. because of this you can't lump them together in this way. the abrahamic traditions are grouped because they reference each other. but you must understand that they are each unique traditions with many sub sects (especially in the case of christianity). from my impression, people like hitchens, dawkins etc. attempt to reduce them in this way and treat them all like one thing, and it's not even remotely useful to the conversation because it's simply not true. it's not a matter of belief or disbelief; it's just not the facts.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: millzy]
    #16177463 - 05/03/12 06:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, and the mosques of the islamic world are full of women- despite the fact they are forced to be in cloth bags while entering in many areas.




maybe I am presuming to much, i presume you mean a veil or burkah when you say cloth bag. By force I presume you mean some kind of threat of persuction. Honestly im not sure how this relates to what milzy said as he was talking about christianity so it seems out of context, so searching for a related general context I go back to your statment about immorality and milzys response about women equality.

so with all that, I think it is ignorant to simply say women are forced, as many of them choose and prefer to wear a veil or burkah, just as many secular women prefer to wear cloth around their geneitals or breasts. In each case you could argue they are forced since they would be persucuted, yet many of them choose to cover different parts of their bodies.

when you ask what the cultural taboo is relative to, I don't know what you mean, taboos relate to people, taboos are beliefs that organize how people behave and ow they relate to one another. Perhaps there are interesting anthropological theories about why women where these things, but its clear that the cultural belief is that women should hide their beauty, that which attracts men.

so i make the comparison to the cloth bags westerners put around themselves (pants or skirts or shorts) to the cloth bags you seem to refer to.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Freedom]
    #16177538 - 05/03/12 06:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

some muslim women are forced to wear burqas in certain countries, and others, some choose to wear them as an expression of religious devotion.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: millzy]
    #16177881 - 05/03/12 08:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

gotta love a religion that forces women to wear bags. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: Icelander]
    #16178051 - 05/03/12 08:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
gotta love a religion that forces women to wear bags. :thumbup:




see post above. many muslim women in countries where they aren't required to wear burqas do so as a public exhibit of they're religious devotion.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is there a coherent interpretation of the Bible- even through 'non-litteral interpretations'? [Re: millzy] * 1
    #16178127 - 05/03/12 09:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Doesn't help the ones that are forced does it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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