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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Crying Over the Death of a Loved One
    #7118195 -

When someone close to me dies, I may become sad over the prospect of never seeing them again, as I (currently) believe we cease to exist when we die.

But many believers think that death is a transition to another, better form of existence. So why would anyone become sad if they believe their dead loved one not only still exists but is in a better place?

That's like becoming sad that your loved one just won the lottery, isn't it?

Am I missing something or do the faithful doubt the existence of the afterlife even though they express 100% certainty in its existence?

What do you think?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118232 -

Well, I believe in rebirth, and the "wheel of rebirth/suffering."
But, we always get sad due to that belief which you just stated. We gained love and attachment obviously, and you feel sad because you won't be able to actually be around or talk, which is basically no existence.


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E-Sangha
What Is Buddhism?
Human History/Future Threats

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: mkc]
    #7118258 -

We gained love and attachment obviously, and you feel sad because you won't be able to actually be around or talk

But you'll be able to be around them and talk again when it comes your turn to die, right?

So again, it doesn't make sense to me to become sad over a loved one's good fortune.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (07/02/07 08:59 AM)

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118269 -

Diploid said:
When someone close to me dies, I may become sad over the prospect of never seeing them again, as I (currently) believe we cease to exist when we die.

But many believers think that death is a transition to another, better form of existence. So why would anyone become sad if they believe their dead loved one not only still exists but is in a better place?

That's like becoming sad that your loved one just won the lottery, isn't it?

Am I missing something or do the faithful doubt the existence of the afterlife even though they express 100% certainty in its existence?

What do you think?


I think what you think.;)


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Icelander]
    #7118285 -

because crying is natural. Its just human nature to be sad when a loved one dies, and this is a human emotion designed to ensure that we protect our own from death. So really these people are denying themsleves thru religion. I you know what I mean:tongue:


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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: The Crow]
    #7118313 -

because crying is natural

I don't think that crying over a loved one's good fortune is natural, unless you mean tears of joy for their happy passing into a better place.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118319 -

Diploid said:
We gained love and attachment obviously, and you feel sad because you won't be able to actually be around or talk

But you'll be able to be around them and talk again when it comes your turn to die, right?

So again, it doesn't make sense to me to become sad over a loved one's good fortune.


This is really not like someone you know winning the lottery.

It's more like saying you should be happy for an ex-girlfriend who just dumped you to move in with the guy she loves.

Shoulds are easy to define... walking the line is harder. Emotional grief as a result of loss of attachment is a pretty normal reactionary property for a human. EVEN if it's believed to only be temporary. 40-50 years without someone you're deeply attached to IS a signifigant loss, is it not?

We are all human, and prone to human reactionary tendencies, such as grief and loneliness. Usually, they are an expression of our own PAIN of having to continue this experience without a certain someone or other who helped brighten your days.

Might seem selfish, but that is kind of what grief is about. It's not about feeling bad for someone who died. It's about healing the emotional trauma experienced through loss of attachment.

Peace...

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #7118362 -

This is really not like someone you know winning the lottery

How is finally leaving this physical existence where we have to eat and shit and get bad breath and body odor and most of us have to work for decades only to retire and die shortly after not like winning the lottery?

From what the faithful tell me, the afterlife is paradise compared to where we are now, right? The afterlife kicks ass compared to this existence, right?

Am I missing something?

40-50 years without someone you're deeply attached to IS a signifigant loss, is it not?

Not if I take the faithful at their word. They tell me that the afterlife is infinite. What's 50 years compared to that?

So my question again is do the faithful really believe in the afterlife even though from all appearances, they're shitting themselves with grief over the prospect of someone they care about entering paradise?

It makes no sense to me. :shrug:

It's about healing the emotional trauma experienced through loss of attachment.

Trauma? Because your loved one just entered paradise?? I don't get it.

Might seem selfish, but that is kind of what grief is about

Yeah, it DOES seem selfish to become sad over someone else's good fortune.

That is unless the faithful don't really believe what they say they believe. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118377 -

cuban i totally agree with you. i have read up on various religions and while i still believe in the non-existence after death, i think that the after life these religions describe is the highest form of bliss. that being said it seems absurd that someone who really believes in this should be SCARED of death. however, crying over the loss of a loved one doesnt mean you dont think they are in heaven. it just means you are sad to not have that person around anymore

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: evolprim]
    #7118380 -

on that note, i will be quite upset if on my own funeral people are crying. and will very much like it if all my friends and family dance around my ashes in tie-dye clothing with the grateful dead playing

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #7118420 -

Fun topic. This stuff always helps with the pain, in one way or another, its soothing. Crow you said an intersting thing, "a human emotion designed to protect our own"
I think it is within this mentality that it becomes a natural thing to cry, because we have stopped seeing others as a being within a wonderful adventure and process of discovery.We attach this person to our identity and feel a loss of will in being able to live when they leave. If we were to accept and see the beuaty within death, in the same way it is within ourselves to do, the death of loved one would not stop you, only inspire you. We have been taught about death far to much for us to react in such a way and so it seems that it is our nature to struggle against death, which ties back to stuggling to protect what we believe is our own.
I dont believe that Protecting those we are emotionally close to, with the means to protecting whats your own, it can be aswell, to be a protector of truth(the persons truth of not wishing to die right now), upon discovering that this idea, this truth expressed, is something that makes us feel like you are fullfilling a purpose that you have discovered as worthy of your expressionary energy.
I think life and death are the same, accepting and loving them is all that is.
C you all! Im trying to love everyone unconditionally!That is who i am.


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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118441 -

I think crying is natural until time heals the wound. It is the parting that hurts, that we may not see them again, hear their laughter, or share in their joys and pain.


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118469 -

We live in existence (space-time) and we live in Being. In Being, there is only One and no loss or lack, as Being is the Pleroma (Greek: 'fulness'). In duality, in the world of existential relationships, of sensory perception of embodied self and other embodied selves, there is very obviously attachment-detachment.

One is not, or need not be concerned with the dead's post-mortem condition. From a non-dualist perspective, the post-mortem condition of Being is not different from that which exists during one's lifetime, only most people fail to intuit its omnipresence. The hope is that in the moment of death, the 'passing,' the awareness of The Clear Light of Unmitigated Reality, one Knows Oneself as Being, which is to say, Being Realizes Itself as Being, as the existential self perishes. So you are correct in saying that our existential self perishes at death. It is our Essential Self that is Eternal and the spiritual life is to continuously seek to experience this Eternal Self that indwells or co-exists with our perishable selves. It is the continual attempt to pierce the veils of illusion, of mental and physical data which occult the awareness of Pure Being. We thereby become aware of our Essential Self - 'The Kingdom of Heaven' - while we live our everyday lives.

"His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it." - The Gospel of Thomas

So much of the Biblical midrash attempts to illustrate this Omnipresence: transfigured beings on 'the Mount of Transfiguration, Elijah going to Heaven in a whirlwind, Enoch walking with God and being 'translated' (into thin air) because "God took him," the Resurrection of Jesus, the appearing of Jesus in the upper room behind shuttered doors and windows are all examples of midrash which illustrates the appearance-disappearance of our existential form into and out of Being. Unfortunately, most people don't get that this is Jewish midrash and read it literally and historically which just makes it all supernatural instead of a linguistic device to describe the nature of Being.

Instead of materialistically attributing consciousness to our existential mind-bodies, the spiritual approach understands the exquisitely complex human being to be a suitable vessel for 'housing' higher and higher degrees of consciousness, which is an attribute of Being. No longer having the psychophysical integrity for 'housing' (as a 'temple of God') Being, we die, leaving decaying remains. Some cell division may continue for a while, but consciousness no longer animates one's existential life. It is that life which we mourn the loss of while simultaneously holding that the Essential Self is the One - the Ocean of which all of us are individual waves which rise and fall.
It is, using Biblical midrash, like mourning the loss of Jesus AND rejoicing in the Resurrected Christ at the same time. Jesus as ego perishes - Christ as Essential Self continues as Pure Beinghood. The literal linear story line of the Bible narratives must be 'compressed' into The Moment for a Gnostic understanding.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/02/07 10:15 AM)

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: shakercee]
    #7118483 -

i think unless a personality is strongly tempered (through what process i can't quit say), the personality begins to disintegrate at death. the specific person you loved is gone.

er... kind of like if your dad died and when you went to heaven he was there, but he was 20 years old and you were like "who the fuck is this?". i'd say you probably have the option to either go back in time to when you were alive and re-experiance that, or to put a filter on your fathers energy to appear to you how he did on earth, but once you know its just a filter, a kind of illusion you realise you have no choice but to let go.

i knew someone who called it being recycled. there has to be some sadness in seeing you loved one be tooken apart and put back together in a differnt shell.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

Edited by truekimbo2 (07/02/07 10:09 AM)

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118485 -

I think it is a selfish response to that fact that these people believe they will miss the deceased until they themselves die.

A better analogy than the one in the opening post would be that your best friend wins the lottery, and with that money he decides to move to a remote part of the planet to enjoy his wealth. You are happy that he has won the lottery and is enjoying himself wherever he moves to, but you are sad because you aren't able to see him until you acquire the means to do so (dying).

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118697 -

Diploid said:
This is really not like someone you know winning the lottery


40-50 years without someone you're deeply attached to IS a signifigant loss, is it not?

Not if I take the faithful at their word. They tell me that the afterlife is infinite. What's 50 years compared to that?

So my question again is do the faithful really believe in the afterlife even though from all appearances, they're shitting themselves with grief over the prospect of someone they care about entering paradise?

It makes no sense to me. :shrug:




"The faithful," as you put it, imagine an afterlife like the fantasy in the Robin Williams film 'What Dreams May Come.' Infinity and Eternity both denote the same Reality, yet infinity still suggests to most minds endless space while eternity suggests endless time. Infinity/Eternity do not denote 'duration' or 'extension' which is what spacio-temporal is. If anything, infinity/eternity, not as a concept but as a conscious experience connotes 'intensity.' Such magnitude is illustrated Biblically by God placing Moses in a 'cleft of rocks' so that Moses could only see God's 'hind portion,' but not God's 'face,' because: "You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." (Exodus 33:20) because connotes 'intensity.' It is also illustrated in Greek myth when Semele, mother of Dionysius holds Zeus to his promise for any gift, asks to see his 'true form,' and is incinerated. The human being cannot contain Infinite Being without exploding! Instead of imagining the afterife, the multitudes need to start Realizing via insight and intuition the present life!

Only the Divine in human beinghood is Eternal, hence the urgency of Jesus' message to love, because agape love is what the metaphysics of God is. Inasmuch as we 'become' love, we become God. What we love in our loved ones is love itself. The individual vehicles of love is what our existentially separate selves become attached to. The apprehension of love (Pure Being), colored by, or clothed by images and memories of specific individuals constitutes the veil of illusion. It is really the love that is all important and the love that dwells in you or me or any other human being who has ever loved is the Same love, the same Being. THIS is what Eternal Life means, not an immortalized existence in an Elysian field of unending duration. Love as a state of being is what the Kingdom of Heaven is, and as Being Itself it is Eternal Life.

I could not continue to believe the orthodox form of Christian doctrine. It was contrived and completely separated from any of my experience. It remained, and remains, on the level of midrash, metaphor and mythology. Only by bringing these levels into my own transcendental experiences have they born real meaning.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7118936 -

It surely was said before: They cry for 'selfish' reasons, for their own perspective without that lost person. Not for the perspective of the lost one itself.
When I will die, everybody shall celebrate !
:heart:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7119076 -

Never mind the death of a loved one; I cry over spilled milk. :hissyfit:


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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Diploid]
    #7119559 -

Perhaps they doubt that they are headed for the same place as their loved one.  :satan:

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Re: Crying Over the Death of a Loved One [Re: Veritas]
    #7119635 -

Or maybe they were left out of the will... :shrug:


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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