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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6531123 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Humanity's basic social structure is tribal, but humanity has the capacity to evolve. Mankind will continue to trudge along changing as necessary to survive...only adapting when it is a must to their survival...always grudgingly. The ideas of revived tribalism after a societal collapse is merely indulging in the romanticism of a past never experienced by the imaginer. It is an empty pipe dream that you would never want to see happen anyway due to the discomfort and danger involved. It is a fact that most of us are lazy and soft and would not tolerate such a decline.


I agree that humanity has the capacity to evolve, but that evolution should take human nature into account. The implications of what you are saying is that we should just accept any system that seems to evolve in our society no matter what. That the might of the system makes it right, no matter how inhumane it is. That individuals should just be sacrificed to the collective whole--That is a very totalitarian way of thinking.

And it will not work because human nature is not 100% malleable. You can't just alter billions of years of evolutionary hardwiring with a few thousand years of cultural progress. Such reasoning seems to suggest a very Lamarckian view of human nature, where you expect a person's biology to directly change under environmental influences. It's either that, or you are honestly suggesting that human beings live in a system that does not work with their biology--either way you aren't really making any sense. Why would I want to live in a system that I am genetically inclined to be miserable in?


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6531157 -

freebass said:
so ive been reading some books by Daniel Quinn and Daniel Pinchbeck as well as doing a lot of personal exploration, and im pretty convinced that human beings aren't supposed to live the way we (most of us) do. a lot of people have been postulating a great collapse in the coming decades of modern civilization, so im curious to see people's views over here about that idea and the merits of tribalism vs. this insanity we know now. any ideas?


Though, you do have a point, I think you'd reconsider after spending one day trying to catch your lunch and wiping your ass with leafs.
It would take a long time for any one of to adjust.

Why not just go live out in country, buy a couple of cows, a hat and spend your days herding, you don't have to live in a primitive tribe to be in touch with nature.
You just need to move out of a big town.

Oh and, I think a lot of people have to learn to stop depending on governments to live their lives.
Calling a number for every problem in life is a bad habit, and certainly not a natural way to live.

Someone throws an insult, and you sue, someone hits you and you call a guy with a gun and a funny hat.
Someone throws you on the street and you expects someone to give you a new home and food.

All those things are acts of charity and are to be viewed as such, and not as something you "deserve" just by being born into civilisation.

If someone helps you out in troubles, good for you, you have a honest friend.

If nobody helps you, tuff luck. That's life, that's nature.

The first step of going back to nature is learning how to fall and how to die. It's something civilised people just don't know how to do with dignity, so they sue everyone on their way down. Sometimes they get millions for a broken leg.
In nature a broken leg is a broken leg.

I'm not trying to sell some idea of Darwinism here. I don't believe in Darwinism among human beings.
I'm just saying, people need to build their relationships on compassion, genuine feelings etc. and not on false systems of laws, rights, government telephone numbers etc.

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: snakefinder]
    #6531331 -

Maybe you are misinterpreting freebass. He or she may not so much be saying that we should get rid of modern industrial society as much as he or she is saying we should just alter it in ways that take some of our recent findings of human nature into account.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6531467 -

well i think the idea, the challenge, is reconciling the two seemingly opposing forces so they benefit all. i think some sort of civilization, certain technologies (farming, medicine...) are neccessary, but a lot of the attitudes that they foster are not. i know this isnt very clear, but im drunk, sorry. maybe more in the morning...


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6532903 -

drunk but right :grin: :thumbup:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6533043 -

freebass said:
well i think the idea, the challenge, is reconciling the two seemingly opposing forces so they benefit all. i think some sort of civilization, certain technologies (farming, medicine...) are neccessary, but a lot of the attitudes that they foster are not. i know this isnt very clear, but im drunk, sorry. maybe more in the morning...


Well nothing is "neccessary", but it is sure hopefull.

It may be neccessary now, but I think the human body like all other living beings in nature is perfectly capable of adopting to life without any medicine and technology.

People who live up to 120 years in primitive environments prove that.

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #6533757 -

hot48yearolds said:
Try convincing millions of westerners to leave behind their
Oprah Whinfreys and their frozen foods and start hunting for
food and plowing fields.


Why should they be convinced to do so? Specialization of tasks seems to have made it such that we all need not toil in the fields in order to survive.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6535306 -

I don't think you read my post. What I said was that man will not devolve to a tribal way of living due to many factors social, technological, and individual. I also said that it is human nature to only change when it is absolutely forced upon them. I also held out the possibility that man would advance socially in a positive way, but it would be a survival mechanism. I was stating the factors of human nature, not espousing political beliefs.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6535847 -

I think, if this hasn't already been stated, that increasing numbers of people are becoming more fascinated with the mystical world, we're growing tired of these cookie-cutter lives we end up living and a lot of people are looking for something more, and they look towards spirituality, but without abandoning their lives. And instead of them finding themselves a major religion to follow they're all coming up with their own personal religions, isn't that what most of us here are doing? Still just a few drops in the bucket though..


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6535867 -

FrenchSocialist said:
I agree that humanity has the capacity to evolve, but that evolution should take human nature into account. The implications of what you are saying is that we should just accept any system that seems to evolve in our society no matter what. That the might of the system makes it right, no matter how inhumane it is. That individuals should just be sacrificed to the collective whole--That is a very totalitarian way of thinking.


I don't understand this point...

When a system arises in our society through the evolution of our society, isn't that simply a reflection of our own ponderous natural evolution, and thus better for us all?

Consider this:
Look at societies that evolved naturally and compare them to societies that have come about through deliberate planning. Contemporary American Society, most of Europe, Japan, a few others, all have cultures, beliefs, and laws that evolved over hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

On the other side we have the artificial societies set up through deliberate planning: collapsed colonial experiments, former communist regimes, attempts at implemented theocracy, etc.

Now, I would never claim that the US, Japan, Western Europe, etc. have a "perfect society" but I do think it's fair to say that deliberate planning of a whole social structure has always been an inferior method of organizing a society when compared with allowing societies to naturally evolve.

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