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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FungusMan]
    #6520402 -

There is nothing else to do but accept it. But I am trying to find a way out, and bring those who want to come with me.

Greed is natural, but natural things aren't always needed. It is like the dew claw on dogs. It is something that arose for adaptation during the animals evolution, but now it serves no purpose and only gets in the way. It gets caught on something, rips out, but hey look once it heals no more dew claw to worry about.

What good does greed do in today's society besides hurt others? We are supposed to be a community now. That is the basic point of government. We each do our part so the whole survive.


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"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: ck10n3]
    #6520613 -

Quote:
FungusMan said:
Nature isn't always "pretty" and full of order.


Nature is order. We see it as disorder. We separated ourselves from nature when we stopped seeing ourselves as more than animals, when we decided that we own everything (and some, everyone), and further, when the notions of religion were created (to backup the actions in many cases).

You don't see the few remaining "tribal" (hunter gatherer/nomadic) groups trying to grab up as much land as possible, nor do you see them destroying the floor or canopy of their home.

Greed is not present in nature. Take the lion example. Let's say a single lion took down an entire antelope. If/when he becomes full, he (she) simply leaves the carcass, carries it to its family, or calls others to it to feed. They also don't kill more than they need at a time. Example: A lion is stalking on the horizon, and is obviously looking for food. The animals run, he chases. After finding his kill, the herd stops and scatters out again, while the lion, contented from his meal, stalks through them, without the antelope fearing him (her).


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channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: demiu5]
    #6520664 -

yes! exactly. thats why i think the human nature arguement is more or less bullshit, because really we ARE animals, and chose to ignore the "wisdom of the animalbody" that Mckenna refers to often. i think in a big way, "tribal" societies are pointing the way towards the future for us, because most of them seem to know very little of this greed that so readily consumes people within our society. i like that example of the lion and order in nature, Daniel Quinn uses a very similar example in Ishmael, and i remember it really striking me the firs time i read it.


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: demiu5]
    #6520746 -

Hrmm yeah, I think you put it the way I wanted my response to come out :laugh:


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6520750 -

All ecosystems work to achieve balance, harmony with all the species.
A human ecosystem on the other hand is influenced by the human intellect which is motivated by greed.

The narrative of "we must always have more than what we currently have" is what has split us from what is natural.


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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #6522983 -

Quote:
FungusMan said:
Nature isn't always "pretty" and full of order. We are proof of that. Thats why things are as they should be, because thats the way it is. Whats the worse that can happen, self annihilation? Maybe thats the point. The world and "COSMOS" will go on without us. The Earth will still turn and "Dance" its solar course, whether it is bare like the other planets or not. Humans are the ass hairs of a gluon when it comes to the "cosmos".


:thumbup: Well said.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FungusMan]
    #6523980 -

FungusMan said:
"At the moment, greed rules the world"...

Hate to break it to you, but ever since their has been rulers of a peoples or tribes if you will, and as long as their has been someting to trade or buy, that "world" has been ruled by greed.Things may not be ideal, but they are as they "should" be, because they are. If you dont like society as it is, then live with the amish. You will STILL find greed there. Greed is an inborn drive of survival that will always be.


According to that logic murder and rape are "as they should be" because they are--and if you don't like it you should go live with the Amish.

So basically murder is prescriptive because there are murderers.

And genocide is prescriptive because the holocaust happened.

After all, the instincts for murder, genocide and rape are all inborn mechanisms meant to further our survival as well
and so I guess, according to you, that doubly reinforces their prescriptive value.  So if you're right, all the poor people should just murder all the rich people, and take all the money for themselves.

Or maybe there's more to it then something being good just because it is.

:werd:


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (02/02/07 06:11 PM)

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6524088 -

WTF YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT......


Tribes sha. Your family is your tribe, we traded them away for careers...


The tribes in Africa are in constant turmoil. No they ain't rolling in the grass and living easy. They are drinking blood and fighting over mud puddles.

Everyone will be fighting over resources when it gets ruff. They still do. Tribalism and what we got now is not that different in essence.

People just don't know how to keep there legs closed......



That is all.

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6524109 -

Now you are implying that because I said greed is an inborn part of us, that I agree with that? Grow up! Yes, murder and rape are necessary, just as is ANY good, bad thing to make each other have depth and impact. Its all part of the whole. Is it so hard to comprehend? Murder and such is only as bad as the persons opinion that witnesses such acts. The real and only question it really drives one to ponder, and the one I ask you is: Do you believe EVERYTHING has its part and place in the GRAND scheme of things? Bad actions can lead to good and vice versa, if you even believe in Good or Bad, which I dont. We all have the curse AND blessing called freewill. Morals and views of good and bad are "relative".

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FungusMan]
    #6525397 -

Let the poor invade the rich then and speed up the wheel of self-extinction instead of learning from each other.
Our influence has increased vastly the last some hundred years, through sharping our tools and means, and if we still use the egoistic concept of materialistic brute force to gain illusory tainted goals, witch's power is represented in money these days, this force will hit us back with the most intense strength we imposed.
We think we can live without the eco-system that brought us to life, but can survive with human created sustainings of life.
That's humans power hungry ignorance by its best and the world that will be created by this view is none of interest to me.

'The world is not enough.'


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (02/03/07 03:53 AM)

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6525423 -

freebass said:
so im curious to see people's views over here about that idea and the merits of tribalism vs. this insanity we know now. any ideas?


Well what we have now sustains 6+ billion people. Tribalism might sustain a few hundred million. So if you want that back then either start killing people or hope for a plague.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: z@z.com]
    #6525835 -

z@z.com said:
freebass said:
so im curious to see people's views over here about that idea and the merits of tribalism vs. this insanity we know now. any ideas?


Well what we have now sustains 6+ billion people. Tribalism might sustain a few hundred million. So if you want that back then either start killing people or hope for a plague.


What we have now hardly sustains 6+ billion people. You are forgetting that as you sit at home comfortably people in other parts of the world are eating dirt to try to stay alive.

What we have now is falling deeper and deeper into the shithole.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: ck10n3]
    #6526592 -

i think ck about summed up my reply


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: ck10n3]
    #6527132 -

we have more than enough currently to feed more people (and money to shelter more people) than we could consume. So much food is wasted, both on consumer and producer ends (produce that isn't aesthetically pleasing is almost always tossed out because the majority of consumers won't be it if it isn't appealing to the eye). So much (esp. in "1st world" countries) is grossly overused such as electricity and water and fuel(s).

Not to mention that we have the ability to produce so much more even if our population kept growing.

At worst, we face a problem of either running out of space or having so many of us that we eventually become a society toxic to itself (moreso than currently...think 25-30 billion people...all the consumption and moreover the waste); plus by the time we poison ourselves through disease, we will probably have taken quite a few other species with us (not that other animals don't, but we have and will have eliminated more than any other animal)


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6527176 -

Humanity's basic social structure is tribal, but humanity has the capacity to evolve. Mankind will continue to trudge along changing as necessary to survive...only adapting when it is a must to their survival...always grudgingly. The ideas of revived tribalism after a societal collapse is merely indulging in the romanticism of a past never experienced by the imaginer. It is an empty pipe dream that you would never want to see happen anyway due to the discomfort and danger involved. It is a fact that most of us are lazy and soft and would not tolerate such a decline.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6527479 -

Very true. Personally im both lazy and soft, and as such would never survive such a decline. :lol:


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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: Sinbad]
    #6528064 -

As for myself I see myself as being a bit more disciplined than most of my peers in the area I live. This is not a statement of self importance, but a recognition of a fact, yet I to am too lazy and soft for that.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6530084 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Humanity's basic social structure is tribal, but humanity has the capacity to evolve. Mankind will continue to trudge along changing as necessary to survive...only adapting when it is a must to their survival...always grudgingly. The ideas of revived tribalism after a societal collapse is merely indulging in the romanticism of a past never experienced by the imaginer. It is an empty pipe dream that you would never want to see happen anyway due to the discomfort and danger involved. It is a fact that most of us are lazy and soft and would not tolerate such a decline.


AMEN! Humans will always live the way they MUST. And is it not in non-industrially advanced countries that you find the WORST living conditions? And as far as overcrowding, (which made me laugh when I heard someone bring that up as a "factor"), when people in China start standing in water, then you will know the limit,lol. Even horrors such as war are (believe it or not) good for us. Blatantly good. Please argue against that. Could we live without our environment? I think we will eventually. Like Hue said, if we have to, we will. Besides, we are talking of futures beyond our own lives. There will only be world unity, when there is a world government.There will only be a World Order through a world war. We almost had a world order once, but we didn't because were not all speaking German now. Would you really want to live in a "perfect" world? Think hard on that.

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6530238 -

i hate living in tribes
the variance is way too small
i would stick out too badly:
i am too weird to survive in a tribe.

much easier to hide right in the open
in a modern society that can take
advantage of some of my talent,
sustain me, and leave me alone, for my private explorations.

alpha males hate me, and I have little patience for the ape.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FungusMan]
    #6531025 -

I agree with you. If people really have free will, then morality is simply something we make up. It is just a choice, but no better or worse then any other choice. That's another reason why I don't like the concept of free will... it leads to immorality. Or at least a point of view where morality is a very arbitrary and unnecessary thing.

But if free will is not true, and instead we have an instinctive sense of morality, then your argument based on free will is without merit-and that is the exact direction where the scientific evidence is heading. We have discovered neurons and nervous interactions in the skull--environmental and genetic influences in human personality/decisions--cognitive states which we can physically see via brain scanning devices--all evidence that the mind is not free and then "chooses" its nature as much as it is evidence that our mind evolves in accordance with material mechanisms.

We have yet to see even a hint of anything like a free will.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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