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Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think?
    #6515819 -

so ive been reading some books by Daniel Quinn and Daniel Pinchbeck as well as doing a lot of personal exploration, and im pretty convinced that human beings aren't supposed to live the way we (most of us) do. a lot of people have been postulating a great collapse in the coming decades of modern civilization, so im curious to see people's views over here about that idea and the merits of tribalism vs. this insanity we know now. any ideas?


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6515898 -

"we live like penguins in the desert, why can't we live like tribes"

I've been feeling that this is a very very very very wrong way of living. But why would we go away from being tribes, to being in a technological culture, back to being in tribes? What was this whole episode of expansion for?

I think we need massive re-integration with nature, haromny, love, spiritual consciousness (which is the same thing as saying, massive de-emphasis of all things products, this is going to be a huge overhaul though) and things like that.

It wouldn't be so bad if you took the good things we have such as access to lots of food, warm homes, medical technology (which needs to become more holistic and energetic and less surgical and cold) and things like that.

But something is very not right about our methods of operating. Nothing is sacred, we are overindulgent and desentisized to everything so that we cannot really feel a thing at all (unless we practice slowing down and being mindful). I don't like it when people communicate to each other in clips from gangster songs and run around as if they were capable of moving faster than they already are, displaced a perpetual 50 minutes into the future at any given hunk of present time, perhaps weeks or months into the future.

Tribes had very little streses per se so long as they were surviving. Agricultural and dark age societies seemed to fuck it up by taking too many resources for the upper class and impoverishing to absurdity the lower class, creating possibly Darfur like conditions.... but so long as you have groups of hunterer gatherers my understanding is that they become at equillibrium with nature and survival is generlaly not too hard. This allows for ample communion with nature, God, and spirituality.

If I had to choose, evoke the Noble Savage archetype, or evoke the fat couch-potato archetype.... definitely the Noble Savage but

maybe there is a balance. We are blessed with abundance but instead of being taught to appreciate and savor we are taught to gorge and blaspheme our blessings.

btw i have been heavily influenced by Ishmael + learning a little about Native American religions and how Europeans decimated their way of appreciating everything.
I also take my understandings from the Matrix and thinking about how technology makes us not appreciate anything and makes us cold and calloused to human suffering.

we need re-integration of the right brained into this societal structure and there may be profound revolutions in the way we use the technologies we currently have so that we can have the best of both worlds.

Edited by leery11 (01/31/07 12:59 PM)

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: leery11]
    #6515944 -

i agree exactly with what you are saying. i think the hardest thing in my mind, is sort of reconciling these two ways of living into a way that as you say, allows us to become in equilibrium with nature and enjoy communion with nature and god, while still providing medical technology for those who need it and so on. what about this idea of inevitable collapse, the forced turning away from our current ways. any ideas?


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6515979 -

i don't know

our leaders are not capable of leading us anywhere good unless they have aces in their sleeves but

there is an idea of divine intervention, the 2012ist kind of point of view, that says that we the humans get our acts together and pretty much overhaul the planet and restore it how it should be through acts of being flooded with higher and higher vibrations, so that even the normalist of men is operating out of a general love and compassion and negativity is purged off the face of the earth

and i like that view but i worry about the people that would not be willing to cooperate, as it seems harsh to "flood" them Noah style or what have you (because how can you blame anyone for habroing negative energy, it's just something you are taught to do, so if you are born a politician that is your "fate" more or less to be negative).

then of course, we the normal people do "control" our government if we really try to and want to, sure they will resist but

in order for balance to happen without collapse every Joe-Schmoe has to wake up, care about something, and push for that care to manifest. We cannot save the planet if people don't care about it.

But

if it collapses what are we supposed to do? How can you and I live in a tribe setting in nature if we have no experience at all and don't understand how to live off the land...... amidst a mass pandemonium of people being dumbfounded and trying to loot stores and things like that... no i don't think that will "fix" anything until several generations later.

I think the infrastructures need to stay in tact but the way we use the tools we have needs to come entirely from the heart instead of the solar plexus (egocentric power manipulations that do not fulfill anyone at all, like the addict and his needle being King of Earth)


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: leery11]
    #6516063 -

that last sentence is about what i had in mind, collapse would be chaotic and only temporary i would imagine, as people would band together into a sort of fudalistic society where the material wealth or might is power not because of the fear it instills, but based on the fact that there are no longer any means of productions of new stuff, the closed loop of the material world becoming apparent. that would be truly mad-max like. this topic just leaves so many ideas to explore and bat around inside my skull for a bit. exciting stuff


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6516257 -

you have to realize that [most] peoples did not up and decide to become a tribe, or chiefdom, or nation-state and so on.

The reason peoples (cultures) "progressed" was because their populations were expanding.  As population expands, more resources are required.  "Innovations" also are a contributing factor to the "progression" towards larger, more bureaucratic cultures.  Later, specialization was the result of innovations in horti-/agri-culture, and the systems became even larger.


Now, why don't people seem to see that larger, more powerful "civilized" nations are typically less "successful" than smaller, close-knit groups is beyond me, other than comfort :wink:.  People feel secure this way, and they feel purpose in their lives (most).


Quinn has some good books.  I've read Ishmael and My Ishmael, but haven't gone any further through his writings.


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channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: demiu5]
    #6516509 -

there is also the idea that everything is fine how it is, that the extreme chaos allows us to custom pick the life we want, be it in the woods as a hermit, in a hippy commune, as a CEO, as a monk in a monastery, or as a normal consumer, etc.

perhaps no one in history has had freedom of choice as to how they wish to live even as close to us, and yet it seems in spite of our freedom there is a massive paralyzing sea of apathy that makes the person starting at base 1 (comfortable indulgence in survival, complete conformity to norms) stay at base 1.

it is hard to have stuck your head into pools of idealism and learned things that put you in a stark contrast to the norms of the social structure (and the norms are very fluctuant it seems? chaotic themselves....... constantly being redifined by the mass media too)


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (01/31/07 03:36 PM)

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: leery11]
    #6517098 -

yes, but no one before us (the last few thousand but especially the last thousand) has had the opportunity of being a hippie, or a CEO, or a monk, or even as a consumer.

Quote:
perhaps no one in history has had freedom of choice as to how they wish to live even as close to us, and yet it seems in spite of our freedom there is a massive paralyzing sea of apathy that makes the person starting at base 1 (comfortable indulgence in survival, complete conformity to norms) stay at base 1.


In my life, I understand there is no inherent purpose to life (besides reproduction, but even that is not necessary). And the "massive paralyzing sea of apathy" is nothing more than the realization that no matter how much we may fill into our day, or even our life, it's all been meaningless, or purposeless, other than to occupy our time so we didn't think about the "despair" (as some may see it).

But then again, that opens the gates to the idea of there not being one right way to live (obviously, but still). There may not even be a right way to live.


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channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6517132 -

I don't see why modern civilization would ever collapse.

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6517887 -

im not saying it will, that is actually in fact my biggest uncertainty. but i do know that we cannot go on consuming as much as we are for much longer. i cannot say if we are too rigid to adapt, or even how urgently and suddenly we will need to adapt. perhaps this is why i started this post. anyone have any ideas?


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6517983 -

The only thing that will destroy modern civilization is a large meteor that by chance slams into the agile cosmic pebble known as earth.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6518353 -

I personally see no reason why we should not live this way (we certainly could improve aspects, of course); in fact, I don't see any manner in which a notion of how we are "suspossed to" live could even exist.

:shrug:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6518603 -

First of all,

Try convincing millions of westerners to leave behind their
Oprah Whinfreys and their frozen foods and start hunting for
food and plowing fields.

Second of all,

The way we live now is natural. It was human nature that made
humans develop easier and more pleasurable ways of living, the
raw, animal nature of our being has created this society.

So, how is there anything wrong with our position in this cosmic dance?


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"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6518783 -

fireworks_god said:
I personally see no reason why we should not live this way (we certainly could improve aspects, of course); in fact, I don't see any manner in which a notion of how we are "suspossed to" live could even exist.

:shrug:


We are a greedy species that is not at all in tune with God. Now, I don't know if we should or should not all be one with the void. All religions preach it though, and it is supposed to be a better life. I know it would be if everyone was enlightened, or had at least had a glimpse of what it could be like.

We are taking over the planet like a disease. Natural selection has counted us out and we have made up our own game. We are the strongest species and we have knocked the majority of others out. We need the resources for ourselves so what do we do? We take them. We destroy the land that these animals needed to survive on.

Each animal plays a vital role in the ecosystem it lives in. Once we have come to the point where we have dessimated the land and have hardly any resources are left we will demolish the rest of nature for our needs. We are not just a species that plays a role in nature. We are trying to dominate nature completely.

Once we have killed off the keystone species nature will fall apart. The only way we will be able to survive is to fill the niches ourselves with technology etc. Once we have the remaining species left we will be mixing our technology with living things to sustain ourselves. That is where I see ourselves headed.

If we do not do that the Earth, as it is a living being (I can go into depth on that concept if you want), will die. We will disrupt the balance of life and all will cease to be.

And that is in the next century or so I would say. In the mean time if we do not kill ourselves with global warfare or some crazy biochemical diseases how can you say this is a good lifestyle?

We live great lives. Well most of us do. And the majority of the world lives in a completely different state. They are poor and do not have daily pleasures. They don't even have food for fucks sake.

We are a greedy species and all we do is want things we have no need for. We are held back from our spirituality because of today's society and the things that are force fed to us as yougn children who are so impressionable.

I think we are a disgusting society right now. I know this is not how we should be living, because that is the opposite of what the next step in consciousness says to us. The oneness or whatever you want to call it, God, is pure everythingness and when people finally accept this then the world will be a good place in my opinion. Although it is comfortable, I know it is not good. There are too many horrible things that are going on and not everyone is equal as they should be. Now that I have received unity for even a brief period of time I can see that we live corrupt lifestyles. I know there is better, the ultimate.

Just put yourself in the shoes of someone in another country with no water, electricity, or food. Would you think that we should not live this way then?

I guess you're right in a sense about improving things. But when I think about it I just think that if something should be taken at face value why stay the same? We shouldn't because it needs to be improved. The fact that it needs improvement means that it does not work well, and we shouldn't live that way. Maybe we are not "supposed to," but if we want to live we should. Living isn't something required, but most people would like to.

--

This was not written very well as I am very tired. I will fill in the holes if anyone has any questions. There are a lot of places I left out detail and connections. *yawn*


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"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6519399 -

The better the tools we create, the stronger is the impact of our self on our environment.
At the moment, greed rules the world and if the tools get better and better, humans and nature will be exploited more and more by those in power.
We are able to destroy our roots and feedings for ourself (nature) and so are able to bring extinction to a big part of humans.
The pain must raise, so that people will understand, that this is not the right way of living (making one happy by bringing pain to hundred else). Then, only a change in consciousness from selfishness to selflessness, especially altruism will save us from self destructing. We have allready enough power to minimize pain for everyone !
But we have damaged so much so far, that I doubt we have much time to consider.
The genetic waste was brought out into the environment, everything is tainted and these effects will chase us into the future.
We dig away the ground on which we stand.
What does my boss say: Justice is relative :rolleyes:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6519452 -

"At the moment, greed rules the world"...

Hate to break it to you, but ever since their has been rulers of a peoples or tribes if you will, and as long as their has been someting to trade or buy, that "world" has been ruled by greed.Things may not be ideal, but they are as they "should" be, because they are. If you dont like society as it is, then live with the amish. You will STILL find greed there. Greed is an inborn drive of survival that will always be.

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FungusMan]
    #6519764 -

"The way we live now is natural. It was human nature that made
humans develop easier and more pleasurable ways of living, the
raw, animal nature of our being has created this society.

So, how is there anything wrong with our position in this cosmic dance? "

1-i don't think there is only one way to live, but thats a pretty big claim to make, that the way we live now is natural. exaclty what is natural about clear cutting forests, draining marshlands to build strip malls, putting preservatives in foods, nuclear bombs, irradtiating produce? there are examples of everywhere.

2- human nature didnt tell to live this way. human nature is an illusion. yes, there are examples of natural laws that seem to exists within some aspects of society (natural selection, ...), but i think the human nature argument is absurd. we had all we could ever really want a long time ago, outside of propper medical technology, but now we've entered this cycle of creating our own problems. would evolution have gotten this far if it required nuclear reactors and television and frozen food? i think not.

3- the problem with out collective position in this cosmic dance is that most of us seem to consider ourselves the dj's instead of the dancers.


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FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FungusMan]
    #6519974 -

FungusMan said:
"At the moment, greed rules the world"...

Hate to break it to you, but ever since their has been rulers of a peoples or tribes if you will, and as long as their has been someting to trade or buy, that "world" has been ruled by greed.Things may not be ideal, but they are as they "should" be, because they are. If you dont like society as it is, then live with the amish. You will STILL find greed there. Greed is an inborn drive of survival that will always be.


Naw man, it won't always be, and it definitely "should" not.

Getting into the "should"ness is all subjective. So are any of these ideas. Just because it is, does not necessarily mean it should be. That is taking some teachings out of context, and we are getting too caught up in the language. Language can't go some places.

I am just saying, that if you have been to that magical place, you will know that this is not how it should be, because there it is all objective. It's nice to have ground with the idea too, because so many others have experienced it.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: freebass]
    #6519995 -

Cosmic dancing eh? A wiccan couldn't have used that coined term any better,lol. If it weren't for the "clear-cutting" of tree's, you would have never read for the first time the words "cosmic dance". You wouldn't be communicating and traversing in an "internet". Does not a tree spread its roots as far as possible? Does not a fungus colonize EVERYTHING it can before fruiting? If a lion was not hungry, and stumbled upon a weakened prey, would it still not kill it? Greed is natural.

It ensures the survival of self, not community. To put it blatantly, if there are ANY of you that TRULY wish to go back a couple hundred years or more, then let your children die of simple curable diseases such as pox, and hay fever and such. Turn off your monitor, leave your modern dwelling, and when your sun burnt,wind burnt,snow blinded,disease infested, and mere bones, then come tell me how much better it is. Yes, I DO believe there are better ways of achieving things, but far-out dreams of world unity and collective "collective conscience" is unattainable by any degree. I say to hell with the "collective". They have a name for that type of belief, its called communism,lol. Be a Borg if you want, but I like saying "I".

Nature isn't always "pretty" and full of order. We are proof of that. Thats why things are as they should be, because thats the way it is. Whats the worse that can happen, self annihilation? Maybe thats the point. The world and "COSMOS" will go on without us. The Earth will still turn and "Dance" its solar course, whether it is bare like the other planets or not. Humans are the ass hairs of a gluon when it comes to the "cosmos".

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Re: Tribalism, the collapse of civilization, what do you think? [Re: FungusMan]
    #6520022 -

Subjective? Like mystical/philosophical references of "that magical place"? Be the change you want to see? Then be like the stone in the river of "now" and "reality", and be honed to nothing by mere time. I don't like the way things are in the world of man, but I accept it.

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