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The Immigration Debate
    #5602232 -

The other day I saw on CNN that there was protests all over the United States by illegal and legal immigrants, ranging from California all the way to the heart center of identity politics, Montgomery.

Why are all these protests happening now in 2006? My great uncle said that this reminds him of the civil rights movement in the late 1960's, although alot more complicated


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Basilides]
    #5602264 -

Basilides said:
My great uncle said that this reminds him of the civil rights movement in the late 1960's, although alot more complicated


And a lot more ridiculous.

"We came here illegally and we want citizenship now! Gimme Gimme Gimme!"

Edited by RandalFlagg (05/07/06 08:16 PM)

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5602420 -

I'll take my guncle's insight over some 20-something year-old right wing nerd who can't get laid  :smirk: :heart:


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Basilides]
    #5602431 -

Oh....it's on!  :lol:

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5602449 -

Smack him with your t-square, Randal.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Basilides]
    #5602509 -

But seriously, there are two angles that I use when considering illegal immigration.  The legal and the financial. 

First the legal:

I am kind of annoyed that these people circumvent our laws and enter the country illegally.  However, I view some laws as being unjust (such as drug laws), so disobeying certain laws is not always a bad thing.

Now the financial:

Given that they are not citizens and they do not pay taxes I emphatically believe that they should not enjoy the social programs that are available to normal citizens (public education for their children, welfare, etc..).

If a Mexican walks into the country illegally, keeps his head down, works hard, and doesn't take any of my money then I really don't care if he's here.  :shrug:

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Basilides]
    #5602677 -

I have mixed feelings on the immigration issue:

On the one hand, whenever people bitch about illegals ruining this country, I get the distinct sensation of smoke being blown up my ass. Sure, they came here illegally, but I smoke pot illegally, and no one here seems to bitch at me about that. I think we ought to liberalize our immigration policy, and would personally like to see the Bracero Program brought back.

On the other hand, I think it takes some nerve to sneak into this country and then bitch about how they should make you a citizen. Shut the fuck up and get back to cleaning my bathroom! You knew the deal when you came here. Don't expect us to change our laws to accomodate your self-righteous ass just because you climbed a fence or crossed a river.


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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Silversoul]
    #5602737 -

Silversoul said:
On the other hand, I think it takes some nerve to sneak into this country and then bitch about how they should make you a citizen. 


Personally, if there were no income redistribution social programs then I wouldn't care if they became citizens.

Silversoul said:
Shut the fuck up and get back to cleaning my bathroom! 



:lol:

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Silversoul]
    #5602879 -

Silversoul said:
On the other hand, I think it takes some nerve to sneak into this country and then bitch about how they should make you a citizen. Shut the fuck up and get back to cleaning my bathroom! You knew the deal when you came here. Don't expect us to change our laws to accomodate your self-righteous ass just because you climbed a fence or crossed a river.


America is two-faced on this issue.

You have the business's and employers saying, "Hey you Mexicans! come over that fence and we'll hook you up with jobs! mucho denero!"

Then you have the immigration people going, "Hey you cant cross that fence, that illegal!"

I bet if your the poor Mexican looking for a better life and you know that all you have to do is hop that fence and you'll have a good job, Your going over that fence.

How do you stop ants from continuously invading your house? Sure, you spray them when they are out in the open.... But once you put the food away, they seem to leave on their own.


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HELP!!!!!!!!!

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5602939 -

I agree, and I don't blame them for wanting to come over. But my point is that when they do this, they know the deal. It seems a bit absurd to me to sneak in illegally and then start making demands. Beggars can't be choosers.


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Edited by Silversoul (05/08/06 12:49 AM)

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Silversoul]
    #5606674 -

I agree with the opinions saying that ya if a person comes over and starts bitching about becoming legal then thats BS. But some of the imigrants have been here 30+ years. I think they deserve a little respect. What have they done differently than any of us who are born here other than come over the boarder 30 years ago. They are living the same life as us without any of the perks we get. Obviously they are living legal lives or else they would have been deported. All of our grandparents, great-grandparents or however far back it goes came into this country at one time (Not too long ago actualy) and who knows how they got in here. It's anoying to see a bunch of people who are born into perfection, figurativly winning the national lottery, cry about other people just looking for a shot at a nicer life for their family. Most imigrants who come over are fathers sending money back home for their families.


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"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5606874 -

Quote:
But some of the imigrants have been here 30+ years.


And for 30+ years they knew what they were doing was illegal.

Quote:
They are living the same life as us without any of the perks we get.


It's not the same. I'm not living illegaly in a foreign country.

Quote:
Obviously they are living legal lives or else they would have been deported.


They are obviously illegal. You dont have to be deported to be illegal.

Quote:
born into perfection


What? USA=Perfection?

Quote:
people just looking for a shot at a nicer life for their family


There are billions of people in the world who are looking for a better life. Is the US going to take in billions of illegal immigrants? Sure all these 3rd world immigrants will perform work at slave labor prices but then we should just throw out all of the labor laws.

Quote:
Most imigrants who come over are fathers sending money back home for their families.


The debate is about illegal immigrants and illegal immigrants that send money home are stealing with the help of the business that hired them.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: 1stimer]
    #5608182 -

This debate is raging in PA&L these days and it always seems to keep coming back to the same debate between two sides: I'm sympathetic to Mexicans coming here illegaly because their country sucks vs. That doesn't give them the right to drain our resources.

It's a waste of time to debate whether or not Mexicans are justified in coming here illegaly. The bottom line is that as long as they can make money here, they will keep doing it. It's not a question of right and wrong, they would be idiots not to.

So what we need to debate is this...what can we do about them? Should we build a big Berlin wall type thing? Should we give citizenship to those who have been here 5+ years? The illegal immigrants are going to keep coming, and deciding that it is right or wrong will have no effect either way.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Basilides]
    #5608714 -

It is funny how the conservative right are most identified with stopping illegal immigration. That just seems like a complete lie. For instance, conservative politics are based on the big business, thus hiring illegal immigrants is better for the business, and therefore satisfies the government. It just seems a little hypocritical. A side note, Hispanics are typically republican. Peace.


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We can't stop here - This is bat country.

-Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EmptySpace]
    #5608799 -

What's going on here is Republicans want Hispanics to be for them what blacks are to Democrats. If they stay their course, this will probably wind up being the case. I think such Republicans have astute economic sense. GWB majored in business, and though I think he was high most of his college years, this one fact seems to have gotten through: countries with free trade agreements will always specialize in that which they are able to produce with the lowest marginal cost.

Here in the US, we're crop-growing motherfuckers. We have the agriculture thing DOWN, with irrigation technology, fertilizers, genetic engineering, and a shit ton of good soil. But our economy is a service economy in which the unskilled workforce take jobs at McDonalds or Walmart. Such jobs suck ass, but farmwork sucks worse. Result = labor shortage.

Mexico's economy is agricultural. Maybe someday soon it will be a strong manufacturing economy, but as of now all Mexican manufacturing jobs are for US corporations, and were formerly US jobs. Free trade with the US has resulted in a supply of cheaply grown US crops that effectively put the Mexican farmer out of business, and these unskilled, uneducated agricultural workers can no longer find suitable employment in Mexico, so they look north.

So there. Mexicans get cheap crops from the US, and the US gets cheap labor from Mexicans. Simple economics.


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No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...

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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5608839 -

gluke bastid said:
This debate is raging in PA&L these days and it always seems to keep coming back to the same debate between two sides: I'm sympathetic to Mexicans coming here illegaly because their country sucks vs. That doesn't give them the right to drain our resources.


I don't think that you are correct here, it's not so much the resource drain that is being screamed about, and if it is it is foolish. There is a benefit to business and customers in having a cheap labor force. In the end it's probably roughly a wash. What I object to is that:
1. None of the illegals are checked out. Most are good guys and hardworking and all that but not all. What is universal about the illegals is that they were not checked out. None of them. We should let ONLY solid individuals in, who are interested in becoming American citizens. Because there are enough of them. Which brings me to
2. For every illegal who infiltrates the border someone who wants to do it square and be an American can't get in because the quotas stay low. Because the market is saturated with illegals.
3. Illegals don't pay taxes and don't fairly compete in the workplace. The companies that hire them have an advantage in that they don't have to pay unemployment or compensation or matching soc sec and medicare. This is huge money. HUGE. Are they thus expoited? Yeah. No. Who's exploiting whom? They do however circumvent all labor laws. They are, to put it politely, what organized labor would generally label SCABS.
4. By their presence they depress wages for everyone legal in their field who has to play by the rules. By depressing wages they provide a disincentive for anyone to go into that field. Guess why there aren't so many young Americans interested in construction? Because the wages haven't risen enough to make young Americans interested. Kick out the illegals and guess what? The only pool left will be legals and natives. Wages will rise to attract the necessary workers from that pool.
5. The opportunity for the most ambitious Mexican and other nationality workers to leave and come to America is a disincentive for them to fix their own fucked up countries. And by their abandonment of those countries they leave only the most timid behind.

Immigration should only be allowed as the first step in the process toward citizenship. If you don't want to be an American, you can fucking stay home.
Quote:
It's a waste of time to debate whether or not Mexicans are justified in coming here illegaly. The bottom line is that as long as they can make money here, they will keep doing it. It's not a question of right and wrong, they would be idiots not to.


See point 5 above. They are deserters and traitors to their own people. They take the easy way out and, by so doing, contribute to the continued failure of their own nation.
[quote

So what we need to debate is this...what can we do about them? Should we build a big Berlin wall type thing? Should we give citizenship to those who have been here 5+ years? The illegal immigrants are going to keep coming, and deciding that it is right or wrong will have no effect either way.


It has already been decided that it is wrong. The only question is will the politicians do anything about it? My take:
No amnesty for lawbreakers. No punishment either. Send them back and they can apply properly. They go to the back of the line, not the front. Loosen and/or speed up the vetting process, increase the quotas and make damn sure it's a citizenship track. If they fail to make a move toward citizenship then they have to go. To achieve this, a fence is necessary. As is tracking of visa holders. The Mexican border is not the only point of ingress. In this day and age of computers it should be fairly easy to install a system that tracks visa holders who overstay. Gotta catch them after a few months. No driver's licenses to illegals. Ever. Pull one over with an expired license from another country and an expired visa and it's on the boat he goes. Right away. No trial, no nothing. See ya.
Employers need to be disinclined. Fine them. And then prosecute them through the IRS for all the taxes they avoided.


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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EmptySpace]
    #5608870 -

EmptySpace said:
It is funny how the conservative right are most identified with stopping illegal immigration. That just seems like a complete lie. For instance, conservative politics are based on the big business, thus hiring illegal immigrants is better for the business, and therefore satisfies the government. It just seems a little hypocritical. A side note, Hispanics are typically republican. Peace.


Big business doesn't much give a shit how much labor costs as long as it costs the same for everyone. Consumers care, though. Your side note is a lie.


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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5608878 -

zappaisgod said:
Big business doesn't much give a shit how much labor costs as long as it costs the same for everyone. Consumers care, though. Your side note is a lie.


If consumers care, then big business cares. Unhappy consumers = fewer sales.


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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: Silversoul]
    #5608904 -

Businesses don't compete with consumers, they compete with each other. Consumers get unhappy with one company, they go to the next. Or they don't buy the product at all. Which almost never happens. Or it does. Then the business will do something else. What business can't deal with is shifting and unclear and unequal rules. That way lies madness.


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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5609015 -

What's this, traitors to their own people and such? Count on a conservative to call everybody traitors just to stir emotion. Mexico is fucked up because it's controlled gangsta-style, which destabilizes the gov't and thus the currency, which is a disincentive for foreign investment, the foundation upon which you build a strong manufacturing economy. Why is this the case? Well, where you have gangstas you have a black market, and when I say black market I mean drug laws. Again, simple economics, over which Pedro in the tomato grove has no control.

That's not to say that Pedro doesn't have to worry about economics. He and his family must eat, clothe themselves, and try to live. These needs are immediate, so don't count on Pedro to ponder the long-term advantages of staying where he is and trying to influence a system that couldn't give less of a fuck what Pedro thinks. If you were in his shoes, you wouldn't either.

So Pedro goes north, not with dreams of one day becoming a *lip quiver* citizen, but because he has to goddamn eat. And no law will keep him out if that means he and his family will starve. But at the same time, the US and Mexico share a border; it isn't necessary for Pedro to pull up all his roots. It makes more sense for him to work in the US over the summer and live on what he makes, which will carry a long way in Mexico, over the winter. Why is it so important that he be made a citizen?

Suppose some guest worker program was in place, where Pedro pays taxes on what he makes in the US. There, now nobody is being ripped off. I don't understand all the fuss over citizenship; it's like christians arguing over the proper way to baptize. It accomplishes nothing and in the end it's just a label. I think migrant workers ought to pay taxes just to even things out, but if the rest of what they make means they are better able to provide for their families, then I don't see what's so unfair about it.

And what's this business about solid individuals? What qualifies as solid? Would you say that somebody surfing message boards about drugs is a "solid person"? I guess that depends on who you ask. To me, a solid person is a person who is neither liquid nor gas. I'm calling that elitist bullshit.

It's amusing that, in the same post, you want the laws of economics (with no government involvement I'm assuming) to govern wages, but at the same time you want a government powerful enough to track down undesirable people. You realize that's just about lockstep with fascism, right? Is that the kind of world you want, where the government can track someone's every move? Given that power, what if the government should decide to use it against you? What then?

You know why Americans don't want construction jobs? Because they found better jobs doing other things. Kinda like the tomato grove jobs no Estadounidense wants to do. But of course, if there was a way Mexicans could be here legally and pay taxes, they wouldn't be able to bid down wages, which would make the point moot.

Nationalism, even when disguised as patriotism, is still ideological horseshit.


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No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...

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