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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Immigration Vote
    #5486047 - 04/06/06 10:35 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Article
By RACHEL L. SWARNS

WASHINGTON, April 6 ? With a Republican compromise in hand, the Senate headed today toward a showdown vote on competing plans on the volatile subject of illegal immigration.

As predicted by Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, in televised interviews this morning, a bipartisan bill approved by the Judiciary Committee failed to gain the 60 votes needed to avoid a filibuster when it is brought to the floor.

The vote to cut off debate on the bill, which would put nearly all of the nation's estimated 11 million illegal immigrants on a path toward citizenship, a provision that has been denounced by its opponents as offering "amnesty," failed by a wide margin ? 60 no votes to 39 in favor.

Mr. Frist said the Senate would then take up the new compromise, reached late Wednesday night by a group of Republicans.

But while the compromise was endorsed by Mr. Frist, a Republican of Tennessee, it did not have the commitment of all Republicans, much less Democrats.

As described by Mr. Frist in the interviews, the compromise would place illegal immigrants in three categories:

?Those who have lived in the country at least five years would be put on a path toward guaranteed citizenship, provided that they remained employed, paid fines and back taxes, and learned English. Mr. Frist said said this group accounted for about 60 percent of the roughly 11 million illegal immigrants believed to be living here.

?Those who have lived here for two to five years, said to number about three million, would have to leave the country briefly before reporting to an American port of entry, where they would be classified as temporary workers. They would be allowed to apply for citizenship but would have no guarantee of obtaining it. Those who did not would have to leave after participating in the temporary worker program for six years.

?The remaining one million or so, those who have lived in the country less than two years, would be required to leave. They could apply for temporary worker status but would not be guaranteed it.

Mr. Frist said in an interview with CNN that the key to the compromise was a recognition that illegal immigrants "are not a monolithic group."

Those who have stayed in the country more than five years "are more likely to be assimilated into society," he said. Also, there was a recognition "that it's impractical, it's impossible, to send everybody home."

Mr. Frist said the compromise bill would be combined with one he had proposed concerning border security and cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Senators of both parties and their aides had huddled in meetings throughout the day, trying to hash out a deal by week's end, the deadline set by Mr. Frist for a vote on an immigration bill. For the first time, senior Democrats, including Senators Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts and Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, joined in the negotiations, an acknowledgment that they lacked the backing to get a vote on broader legalization.

Mr. Frist said that the Senate would vote first today on legislation proposed by Senator Kennedy and Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican, that was passed by the Judiciary Committee. Mr. Frist said that measure, which would have allowed nearly all illegal immigrants to eventually apply for citizenship, would fail to gain the 60 votes it would need to avoid a filibuster.

Then the debate would move to the new compromise, which Mr. Frist predicted would be voted on Friday or possibly tonight.

Lawmakers, who gave impassioned partisan speeches on the floor, had remained deadlocked late into the night Wednesday in a search for a compromise. Senators warned that if the negotiations collapsed, Congress might fail to take action this year on an issue that has riveted the nation and pushed tens of thousands of immigrants and their supporters into the streets for rallies across the country.

Mr. Frist placed blame for the stalemate on Democrats, who refused to allow Republicans to vote on major amendments and have used a parliamentary tactic that will force lawmakers to decide Thursday whether the bill more favorable to illegal immigrants should be considered for a floor vote.

Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the minority leader, blamed the Republicans, saying they had continued to "stonewall" by seeking to pass amendments that would gut that broad legalization bill, approved by the Judiciary Committee last week with bipartisan support.

As the party leaders pointed fingers, Senator McCain rose on the floor and pleaded with his colleagues to come together to prevent a rare opportunity from slipping away.

"This is one of the greatest challenges we face in our time, securing our borders, taking 11 million people out of the shadows who are exploited every day, fulfilling the job requirements we all know are necessary to ensure the economic future," Mr. McCain said.

"Americans are passionate in general," he said, "but this issue has brought passion few of us have seen in this country ? in Los Angeles, New York City and around the nation. It seems we owe every American a resolution to this issue. Could we please move forward?"

President Bush, who met with Republican Congressional leaders on Wednesday, also pressed the Senate to move ahead. "I strongly urge them to come to a conclusion as quickly as possible and pass a comprehensive bill," the president said.

Republicans said the compromise, whose prominent backers include Mr. McCain and Senators Mel Martinez of Florida and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, would attract votes from their members who are uncomfortable with broader legalization. But the compromise cannot pass without the support of Democrats, who said they were still weighing their options.

"Aren't we entitled to at least a chance to have a vote on a comprehensive approach?" Mr. Kennedy said.

There were signs, though, that some of Mr. Kennedy's allies among business and immigrant advocacy groups were throwing their support behind the compromise proposal.

The leaders of the Essential Worker Immigration Coalition, which represents hotels, restaurants and other service industries, said a limited legalization would be better than a bill that focused solely on tightening border security.

Any bill passed by the Senate would have to be reconciled with one passed by the House that calls for deporting all illegal immigrants as felons, and would make it a crime to offer them assistance of any kind.

Mr. Frist said the impassioned debate in the Senate over the past two weeks "shows that it's not where the House is."

"Our approach is more complete," he said.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: daimyo]
    #5486280 - 04/06/06 11:50 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Does this really matter? These fuckers cant even enforce the current laws on the books....how much credibility they have making new ones?

IF ANYONE was half way concerned about his issue, the National
Guard and available garrison reserves would be mobilized to the border IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: daimyo]
    #5486363 - 04/06/06 12:09 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It seems odd that the only deciding factor between immigrants who will be allowed to become citizens and immigrants who will be deported is a matter of 5 years. That's a very arbitrary way to decide who gets to be a citizen.

Although I have no idea what alternative I would propose :shrug:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5486633 - 04/06/06 02:17 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I mean whats the problem? They only come here to work.....

Its not like 20% of the prison population are illegals......



Charges Filed In Wreck That Killed Ex-Coach
16-Year-Old Charged With Involuntary Manslaughter

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Wyandotte County, Kan., prosecutors filed charges Wednesday in a wreck that killed a former football coach at Olathe North High School.

David K. Bassore, 51, of Liberty, was driving home from work Monday on Interstate 35 near the 18th Street Expressway exit when his pickup truck was clipped by a Dodge Neon. Bassore's pickup went off the road, rolling twice before it stopped on its side. Bassore was thrown from the vehicle. He died at the scene.

Prosecutors charged the driver of the Neon, 16-year-old Raul Cabrera, of Shawnee, Kan., with one count of involuntary manslaughter in juvenile court.

Officials said Cabrera is an illegal immigrant, and the judge decided the teen should remain in custody.


The Kansas Highway Patrol is still investigating the fatal wreck, but they suspect Cabrera was drag racing with another car.

KMBC's Maria Antonia reported that Cabrera's mother said her son was not racing; he was being chased by another driver and that he had been followed for several days.

Officials said they are considering charging Cabrera as an adult or upping the charge to second-degree murder.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5487281 - 04/06/06 06:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

That entire post is pointless and off topic.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5487340 - 04/06/06 06:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Seems quite relevant to me. Maybe you just disagree with it and instead of trying to dispute it you dismiss it as "pointless and off topic"?


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487409 - 04/06/06 07:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The point is, these people are human beings. Mabey they got unlucky and weren't born into wealth and prosperity like the rest of us in the United States. Our country is selfish. We are born into freedom and prosperity and now we don't want to give anyone else the opportunity we have even if they want to work for it.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5487445 - 04/06/06 07:21 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think you understand the proposal. We're not stopping anyone from coming here legally. If they want to work, they can apply for the work visa. All this does is tighten up our borders, allow us to know who's coming in, and gives jobs back to Americans.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: daimyo]
    #5487547 - 04/06/06 07:42 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I totally understand the proposal, we have been talking about it at school for a week. I think you have been watching too much tv


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5487568 - 04/06/06 07:48 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
I totally understand the proposal




Then please explain to me where you get this from:

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
We are born into freedom and prosperity and now we don't want to give anyone else the opportunity we have even if they want to work for it.




--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487577 - 04/06/06 07:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Seems quite relevant to me. Maybe you just disagree with it and instead of trying to dispute it you dismiss it as "pointless and off topic"?




What's to disagree with? All he did was make a sarcastic quip about how many illegal immigrants are in prison, then posted an article about some Mexican hitting a guy while driving a car...

Explain the relevence to me because I'm baffled. I don't see what any of his post has to do with the article Daimyo posted, which goes into the nuts and bolts of the bill currently being debated in senate. Complaining about how many illegal immigrants are in prison doesn't evince either support or opposition for the bill, it just evinces a general dislike of illegal immigrants. Which is fine. I just don't see what it has to do with this bill or this thread. I bet there are a lot of people who hate illegal immigrants who support the bill, and I bet there are a lot of people who hate illegal immigrants who oppose the bill. But I don't know which side of the fence SirTrip sits on.

I was simply trying to get SirTripALot to think out what he was saying a little more clearly and maybe actually give some consideration to what this bill might mean.

I stand by my original sentiment that the post was pointless and off topic, particularly the article he posted. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Please tell me.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5487598 - 04/06/06 07:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
That entire post is pointless and off topic.



He was suggesting all illegal immigrants commit heinous crimes, drive wrecklessly and without licenses, and kill people. You must understand xenophobia and bigotry are vogue in America.

The US can always surrender half of Mexico back and let the Mexicans live on the states we raped away. Or maybe begin prosecuting the land owners who work these Mexicans for $10 a day? Or maybe they can improve the job conditions the Mexican workers work to the point where Americans will be willing to work the fruit and vegetation fields? Wild ideas like that.

But of course, in rampant capitalist societies such as America, worker exploitation and owner lawlessness in the workplace are glorious.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: daimyo]
    #5487774 - 04/06/06 08:28 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Illegal immigrants should be tossed out of our country on their ass. If they want to come here, they should go through the correct procedures.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5487783 - 04/06/06 08:30 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:Its not like 20% of the prison population are illegals....



Quote:

bukkake said:He was suggesting all illegal immigrants commit heinous crimes, drive wrecklessly and without licenses, and kill people.




20% = all? must be that new math...


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5487787 - 04/06/06 08:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I get this from my own intellect. Did it sound like some sort of fact from a website? No.
What I am saying is that we were born in this country by chance, we are thrown into this world randomly if you think about it. These immigrants just got screwed a bit by being born into Mexico. Now these people are trying to live a decent life or just get by and we are shutting them out. I know this is obviously against the laws of the United States, but wasn't slavery once legal? Now don't go into a whole arguement against the slavery comment, I am just trying to give an example of when laws change as people change. Most of the immigrants in this country pay taxes and actualy support our economy in a large part. Adding about 8 billion dollars. Now we need to act as humans and not "Americans" and start respecting other humans who are a lot like us.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5487810 - 04/06/06 08:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
Most of the immigrants in this country pay taxes and actualy support our economy in a large part. Adding about 8 billion dollars.


Id like to know how people sending 15-20 billion to mexico every year adds 8 billion to our economy. Link?

Personally, if they learn english, respect our culture, and establish roots here in america instead of sending money to the country they are escaping from, im all for making them citizens.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487840 - 04/06/06 08:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Now we need to act as humans and not "Americans" and start respecting other humans who are a lot like us.



Why on Earth did you type up that entire paragraph in opposition only to ultimately agree with me?

Quote:

if they learn english, respect our culture, and establish roots here in america instead of sending money to the country they are escaping from, im all for making them citizens.



Why is English a pre-requisite? America has no culture other than McDonalds, Burger King, and obesity. And, what would be wrong with sending money back to their Mexican families so they may support themselves? If the ludicrous immigration laws were not currently in place, they would just as ably have their families join them in America rather than send their slavery wages sent back to their home country.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5487871 - 04/06/06 08:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:Why is English a pre-requisite?


For a society to function, communication is a must.
Quote:

bukkake said:America has no culture.


:lol: why would you think that?  Every person and every country has a culture.
Quote:

bukkake said: And, what would be wrong with sending money back to their Mexican families so they may support themselves?


Because it hurts those of us who have a vested interest in the financial health of America.  It also hurts mexico in the long run by making mexico dependent on foreign aid.  Mexico has vast natural resources, and should be able to be self sufficient.
Quote:

bukkake said:If the ludicrous immigration laws were not currently in place, they would just as ably have their families join them in America rather than send their slavery wages sent back to their home country.


But the laws arnt even being enforced, so what does it matter if they are ludicrous?  Their family can come just fine, and they do.  Many do.  Others dont.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487914 - 04/06/06 09:05 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

For a society to function, communication is a must.



The United States has no official language.

Quote:

why would you think that? Every person and every country has a culture.



I stated what American culture was directly after. America most certainly does have a culture. It is in the form of financial skyscrapers and fat people.

Quote:

Because it hurts those of us who have a vested interest in the financial health of America. It also hurts mexico in the long run by making mexico dependent on foreign aid. Mexico has vast natural resources, and should be able to be self sufficient.



It helps America's modern day landlords to exploit the Mexican worker. What to America's landlords care where the Mexican spends his dollar as long as the lord prospers from the back breaking labor?

Quote:

Many do. Others dont.



Sounds compassionate.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5487950 - 04/06/06 09:17 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

"Politics have no relation to morals."


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5488001 - 04/06/06 09:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
You must understand xenophobia and bigotry are vogue in America.





You could have fooled me. Wherever I turn I see politically correct messages telling me to love everybody no matter what their color or lifestyle.

Quote:

bukkake said:
But of course, in rampant capitalist societies such as America, worker exploitation and owner lawlessness in the workplace are glorious.




The U.S. federal government enforces a minimum wage, regulates interest rates, enforces environmental laws, enforces worker safety laws, and engages in significant taxation and income redistribution. Therefore, the U.S. cannot seriously be called "rampantly capitalist".


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5488046 - 04/06/06 09:45 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Wherever I turn I see politically correct messages telling me to love everybody no matter what their color or lifestyle.



Where?

Quote:

The U.S. federal government enforces a minimum wage, regulates interest rates, enforces environmental laws, enforces worker safety laws, and engages in significant taxation and income redistribution. Therefore, the U.S. cannot seriously be called "rampantly capitalist".



And yet, despite all this, many live below the poverty line, millions live without adequate healthcare, and the working poor who must choose between food and utilities, shelter and healthcare, is very omnipresent and real in America.

Worker rights have improved while the income gap has widened astronomically. Still sounds like rampant capitalism.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5488052 - 04/06/06 09:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

You say "rampant capitalism" as if it is a bad thing. I think our level of capitalism could afford to be a bit more rampant.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Redstorm]
    #5488070 - 04/06/06 09:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It could afford a bit more rampant if you would like to accelerate the upcoming class war.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5488089 - 04/06/06 09:57 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

:blah:

That class war sure has been a long time coming.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Redstorm]
    #5488132 - 04/06/06 10:09 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The social chaos caused by Katrina and the gradual absolution of the middle class in America is all fantasy, eh? You can always live in the fantasy of it is always those "god damned blacks" and "lower class Americans" being laid off and suffering from the effects of social inequality for as long as you like.

The currency obsessive dystopia will not last for all of eternity in America.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5488507 - 04/07/06 12:25 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

bukkake Stated:

And yet, despite all this, many live below the poverty line, millions live without adequate healthcare, and the working poor who must choose between food and utilities, shelter and healthcare, is very omnipresent and real in America


My God!!!
America has all of this!!! You mean we dont live in a fair world? Maybe we should adopt the socialistic view points of Europe, then all of our problem will trickle away.......


Bukkake stated:The social chaos caused by Katrina and the gradual absolution of the middle class in America is all fantasy, eh? You can always live in the fantasy of it is always those "god damned blacks" and "lower class Americans" being laid off and suffering from the effects of social inequality for as long as you like.



You see when people get backed into a corner, it never fails : the race card!!!!

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200512%5CNAT20051214b.html

CNSNews.com) - Statistics released by the Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals suggest that fewer than half of the victims of Hurricane Katrina were black, and that whites died at the highest rate of all races in New Orleans.

Liberals in the aftermath of the storm were quick to allege that the Bush administration delayed its response to the catastrophe because most of the victims were black.

Damu Smith, founder of the National Black Environmental Justice Network, in September said that the federal government "ignored us, they forgot about us ... because we look like we look."

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan in October said that the Federal Emergency Management Agency wasn't fit to help the storm's victims because "there are not enough blacks high up in FEMA" and added that, "certainly the Red Cross is the same."

Rapper Kanye West used his time on NBC's telethon for the hurricane victims to charge that, "George Bush doesn't care about black people."

But the state's demographic information suggests that whites in New Orleans died at a higher rate than minorities. According to the 2000 census, whites make up 28 percent of the city's population, but the Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals indicates that whites constitute 36.6 percent of the storm's fatalities in the city.

African-Americans make up 67.25 percent of the population and 59.1 percent of the deceased. Other minorities constitute approximately 5 percent of the population and represented 4.3 percent of the storm's fatalities.

Overall for the state, 658 bodies have been identified. Forty-seven percent were African-American and 42 percent were Caucasian. The remaining bodies were either non-black minorities or undetermined.

An additional 247 victims have not been identified, so their demographic information has not been released.

The data showed that the majority of Katrina's victims lived in the Orleans parish. The nearby St. Bernard and Jefferson parishes had 91 and 25 victims, respectively.

The storm also did not discriminate based on gender. Fifty percent of the victims were male and 49 percent were female, with 1 percent being undetermined.



The race card used to be a trump of trumps, but now its like throwing snake eyes.......The fact remains that the pulsating stain of slavery and discrimination was apart of our history. The USA has made leaps and bounds compared to to other nations in this regard. For some strange reason people think racism is only prevalent in the Unites States. Im sure France doesn't have racism or Sudan........ or the genocide in Rwanda. These type of attacks are BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5488557 - 04/07/06 12:35 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Im sorry, I got my 20% figure wrong.....



http://www.house.gov/gutknecht/issueitems_06/immigration/2006_immigration_lo.pdf


and another.....


http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html

. Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5489054 - 04/07/06 06:24 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

We argued earlier that a 10 percent rise in immigration lowers native wages by up to 1 percent, or possibly $44 billion per year. However, these wage reductions don't just disappear. To the extent that immigrants provide low-cost labor, either more income accrues to the employers, or cost reductions are passed on to the consumer. Therefore, the host economy benefits by an equal amount that native workers lose from the cheap labor of the immigrants. In other words, the $44 billion is simply redistributed to other people in the economy, and the net effect washes out. But the gains from the low wages go beyond the $44 billion from lower wages. The goods produced by immigrant workers also generate additional profits for employers because they are able to sell more of their products at the lower price. Borjas estimates this gain to be $7 billion per year."

My bad...7 Billion


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5489332 - 04/07/06 09:29 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

These immigrants just got screwed a bit by being born into Mexico. Now these people are trying to live a decent life or just get by and we are shutting them out




Thats the way borders work my man. There are billions of people in the world who are not Americans. If we let every person in the world seeking a better life to become American then the whole world would be pretty much American. If living conditions are not very good in a certain part of the world, instead of fleeing, people should stay and fight to make things better.

I used to work directly with illegal immigrants and they dont wish to conform to our society. Almost everyday I would get asked why I dont speak spanish. I got called all kinds of racist names and was laughed at for being white.

Nobody has a right to come here illegally.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: 1stimer]
    #5490056 - 04/07/06 01:21 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I haven't agreed with you much in the past, but I do this time.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5490222 - 04/07/06 02:18 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe we should adopt the socialistic view points of Europe, then all of our problem will trickle away.......



We can't have that. It sounds too compassionate. What would happen to Pfizer and Blue Cross-Blue Shield if the United States legislated universal health care? It would be awful.

Quote:

These type of attacks are BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



"Class war," "Katrina," "Absolution of middle-class America," "Social chaos." Your excitement is misplaced. My post had nothing to do with racism, but classism.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5490286 - 04/07/06 02:42 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

Randalflagg said:
Wherever I turn I see politically correct messages telling me to love everybody no matter what their color or lifestyle.




Where?




Movies. Television shows. Newspapers. Nowhere in modern mainstream media do I see blatantly racist opinions being spewed.

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

Randalflagg said:
The U.S. federal government enforces a minimum wage, regulates interest rates, enforces environmental laws, enforces worker safety laws, and engages in significant taxation and income redistribution. Therefore, the U.S. cannot seriously be called "rampantly capitalist".




And yet, despite all this, many live below the poverty line, millions live without adequate healthcare, and the working poor who must choose between food and utilities, shelter and healthcare, is very omnipresent and real in America.




"Poverty" is relative. The poor in America live like kings in comparison to most of the rest of the world. They also live like kings in comparison to the rich of a hundred years ago.

Quote:

bukkake said:
Worker rights have improved while the income gap has widened astronomically. Still sounds like rampant capitalism.




It is capitalism, but it is not rampant. It is heavily controlled by the government and heavily altered by socialism.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5490296 - 04/07/06 02:47 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
The social chaos caused by Katrina and the gradual absolution of the middle class in America is all fantasy, eh? You can always live in the fantasy of it is always those "god damned blacks" and "lower class Americans" being laid off and suffering from the effects of social inequality for as long as you like.




Please spare us the class-warfare crap. Nowhere are any of the posters in this thread railing against black people or "lower class" people. I have noticed that extreme Lefties like to invent oppression and oppressors when they debate with people as it satisfies some strange psychosis that they have.

Also, the "lower-classes" aren't always the ones getting laid off. Have you been following GM's troubles lately? They are laying off upper middle-class engineers and managers left and right.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5490305 - 04/07/06 02:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

They also live like kings in comparison to the rich of a hundred years ago.



I don't know about you, but I'd take Andrew Carnegie's life over that of a welfare mother any day.


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5490309 - 04/07/06 02:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Liberals in the aftermath of the storm were quick to allege that the Bush administration delayed its response to the catastrophe because most of the victims were black.

Damu Smith, founder of the National Black Environmental Justice Network, in September said that the federal government "ignored us, they forgot about us ... because we look like we look."

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan in October said that the Federal Emergency Management Agency wasn't fit to help the storm's victims because "there are not enough blacks high up in FEMA" and added that, "certainly the Red Cross is the same."




These people are nothing but race-baiting demagogues who have perfected their shrill blather of victimization.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Silversoul]
    #5490318 - 04/07/06 02:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

They also live like kings in comparison to the rich of a hundred years ago.



Sorry, but I'd take Andrew Carnegie's life over that of a welfare mother any day.




The welfare mother of today has electricity, access to motor vehicle transportation, enough food to survive, heat that requires only the flick of a hand, and television. Sounds pretty good compared to some huge cold mansion with no electricity.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5490326 - 04/07/06 02:55 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Modern technology can't make up for the life of splendor that the tycoons of the 19th century lived. Fuck, I'd still rather be a Roman aristocrat than a poor person today.

BTW, they most certainly had heating systems in the 19th century.


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Silversoul]
    #5490338 - 04/07/06 02:59 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Modern technology can't make up for the life of splendor that the tycoons of the 19th century lived. Fuck, I'd still rather be a Roman aristocrat than a poor person today.




You would forsake modern conveniences like electricity, heat (gas.....which requires no effort to turn on), vehicular transportation, free internet at the library, advanced medical care (often paid for by the government if you are poor), etc.. to live in a stone building with no running water and ancient technology? Not me....

I repeat my assertions that a poor person in modern America who receives welfare has it better than many rich peoples of past times. I would rather live in a crappy modern apartment than some old ancient palace that had no running water or TV.


Edited by RandalFlagg (04/07/06 03:00 PM)


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5490357 - 04/07/06 03:04 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

"Poverty" is relative. The poor in America live like kings in comparison to most of the rest of the world. They also live like kings in comparison to the rich of a hundred years ago.



Horrible argument. Worker rights have improved at the expense of monetary benefits. If the poor in America live like kings in comparison to most of the world, what do the wealthy live like? Are you also suggesting poverty and hunger do not exist in America?

Quote:

Please spare us the class-warfare crap. Nowhere are any of the posters in this thread railing against black people or "lower class" people. I have noticed that extreme Lefties like to invent oppression and oppressors when they debate with people as it satisfies some strange psychosis that they have



You would not be as mystified if you read what I was replying to and the context I was using it in. I would imagine the psychosis I am being blinded by includes the factual statistics showing while the wealthy have gotten wealthier, the poor have gotten poorer.

Quote:

Also, the "lower-classes" aren't always the ones getting laid off. Have you been following GM's troubles lately? They are laying off upper middle-class engineers and managers left and right.



Yes, and that would further support my argument the rampant capitalism is destroying the middle class in America. I believe I said that three times. I have noticed the right-wingers on this board pick and choose what they would like to read and begin to attack.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5490367 - 04/07/06 03:08 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
If the poor in America live like kings in comparison to most of the world, what do the wealthy live like?




Super kings.

Quote:

bukkake said:
Are you also suggesting poverty and hunger do not exist in America?





Of course poverty and hunger exist in America. But, strangely enough all of the poor people I know are overweight.

Quote:

bukkake said:
You would not be as mystified if you read what I was replying to and the context I was using it in. I would imagine the psychosis I am being blinded by includes the factual statistics showing while the wealthy have gotten wealthier, the poor have gotten poorer.




I don't care about disparity. Because of differences in intelligence, effort, and luck there will be disparities in any society.


Edited by RandalFlagg (04/07/06 03:44 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5490401 - 04/07/06 03:27 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

But, to stay on topic I will give my view of illegal immigration.

How much money do illegal immigrants contribute to our economy by working crap jobs for cheap? We should add all of that up and assign a monetary value to it. Let's call this value "A".

We should then figure out how much money they drain away from our society by receiving services (sending their kids to our schools, obtaining welfare benefits, etc...) and not paying taxes. Let's call this value "B".

If "A" is more than "B" I say we let them come in and stay. If "B" is more than "A" I say we get a LOT tougher on illegal immigration.


Edited by RandalFlagg (04/07/06 03:28 PM)


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: daimyo]
    #5490419 - 04/07/06 03:32 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Build a wall. Naturalize those that are here already. Let some in as guest workers (with electronic trackers implanted in them if necessary) in some sort of annual program. If they do enough years in the program, they can apply for citizenship.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5490462 - 04/07/06 03:49 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:Are you also suggesting poverty and hunger do not exist in America?


Bingo. I have never seen or heard of anyone dieng of hunger in america except for decades ago in the past. The only people going hungry are the children of abusive parents and tweakers who are too spun to know they should eat. This is what real poverty and hunger look like:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5490465 - 04/07/06 03:50 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
You would forsake modern conveniences like electricity, heat (gas.....which requires no effort to turn on), vehicular transportation, free internet at the library, advanced medical care (often paid for by the government if you are poor), etc.. to live in a stone building with no running water and ancient technology? Not me....



You seem to be quite ignorant about history. The ancient Romans had running water, as well as heat. They were not nearly as backwards as you seem to think.


--------------------


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Silversoul]
    #5490473 - 04/07/06 03:53 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:You seem to be quite ignorant about history. The ancient Romans had running water, as well as heat. They were not nearly as backwards as you seem to think.


True, but thats was the case only in a small portion, of one city in the ancient world. Personally, I agree with Randal, I would rather be "poor" in america today with the internet, penicillin, cars, television, modern dentistry etc. than an aristocrat in rome.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5490578 - 04/07/06 04:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I certainly won't disagree with the assessment that poor today are better off than the poor of the past, or even the middle class of the past. But I think you guys are underestimating just how opulent a lifestyle the very wealthy lived, even in ancient times.


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Silversoul]
    #5490629 - 04/07/06 05:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
You seem to be quite ignorant about history. The ancient Romans had running water, as well as heat. They were not nearly as backwards as you seem to think.




You cherry-picked one of the most advanced civilizations in the ancient world. And would you really trade your instant hot water and your guaranteed healthy drinking water coming out of your faucet for some aqueduct setup that might contain water that is teeming with bacteria or viruses?

I'll give you some better examples of how modern people have it better than ancient people:

Transportation:

Travel for rich people in past times: A rickety stage-coach on a shitty road, a grueling ride on horseback, or maybe a rough ride on a train. With the technology that was available you could only travel a limited amount of miles.

Travel for poor people today: Even the poorest person can obtain a bus ticket relatively quickly. They can enjoy a smooth ride at high speeds to get where they want to go very quickly.

Health Care:

Health Care for rich people in ancient times: Oftentimes painful, archaic, and sometimes inneffective.

Health Care for poor people in modern times: They have access to modern facilities with modern equipment. X-Rays, cat-scans, and complicated surgical procedures are available and oftentimes Medicaid will pay for it.

Housing:

Housing for the rich in ancient times: There was no electricity. There were no modern appliances. There was probably no running water.

Housing for poor people in modern times: Electricity, efficient heating, modern appliances, and a minimum safety code for building structures are present.


I reiterate....I would immediately pick being a poor person in modern society as opposed to being a rich person in past times. Technology has provided a level of comfort, convenience, and safety to modern citizens (even poor ones) that ancient rich people could not even fathom.


Edited by RandalFlagg (04/07/06 05:17 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Silversoul]
    #5490650 - 04/07/06 05:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I know how opulent the ancient romans were, in fact im in a history of ancient rome class right now (though it is my lowest grade). Im just a sucker for modern technology, with all its health benefits and intellectual stimulation. I know it sounds corny, but I wouldnt trade access to modern technology for even being dictator for life of rome.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5490703 - 04/07/06 05:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Drinking my fill of wine in lead-based pottery

or

Jack Daniels, double up on the rocks.......


but then agian all of those loose Roman women in togas...... I am at a lose :banghead:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5490725 - 04/07/06 05:59 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

bukkake has made clear his opinion of Americans.

"I stated what American culture was directly after. America most certainly does have a culture. It is in the form of financial skyscrapers and fat people."

Whatever.


--------------------


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5490735 - 04/07/06 06:03 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Thats a quite bigoted statement made by bukkake.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5490739 - 04/07/06 06:05 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

What is your culture?


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: barfightlard]
    #5490748 - 04/07/06 06:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I don't care about disparity.



Then our exchange was a waste of time of time for both of us.

Quote:

Thats a quite bigoted statement made by bukkake.



I thought it was hilarious. I can get away with saying things like that as I am American, but I do believe America really does have no culture, or it is at least limited or very negative.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5490835 - 04/07/06 07:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, the culture in America is always under attack by the "salad bowl" and the "melting pot theories" (just think how stupid those really sound by themselves).


If America does not have a culture, then why is the vast majority of world trying to replicate our things? For example, why is the most recognized trademark in the world, Coke?

When I was in Jordon, there is a Kentucky Fried Chicken, literally in the middle of the desert. How come I dont see a majority of European themed entertainment/lifestyle here?


In my opinion culture plays a role in development of a nation. American ingenuity cannot be denied. From the refinements of the automobile, TV, phones, electricity, airplane, nuclear tech,etc. All of these things, that have changed the world, have come from America. Just by chance?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5490896 - 04/07/06 08:04 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

All the greatest cultures throughout history have been updated and improved versions of the culture of the ancient greeks. This ideology has bounced around the Mediterranean for over 2000 years, benefiting all who adopted it. America and West Europe are the modern caretakers of this great tradition, but cultures and societies around the globe have all benefited when they follow this classical culture.

Coke and KFC are just superficial pieces of culture imo. Thats like saying tacos and tequila are part of mexican culture (they are, but those are superficial aspects).


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5490923 - 04/07/06 08:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I was trying to get more at......why is our culture so integrated in other countries, if we do not have one?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5490929 - 04/07/06 08:17 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I see, well Im sure we will get some fun answers to that question.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5490933 - 04/07/06 08:18 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

And why is everyone trying to immigrate here to begin with, if our culture is so racist?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: bukkake]
    #5491846 - 04/08/06 02:18 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I thought it was hilarious

Me too  :smile:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5491847 - 04/08/06 02:19 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

And why is everyone trying to immigrate here to begin with, if our culture is so racist?



Money.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: Alex213]
    #5491859 - 04/08/06 02:29 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

So they dont want to come here to become americans, they are only coming here for the money? :eek:  Im shocked...


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5491886 - 04/08/06 02:44 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Oh yes the rubber stamp.......

The case for the dollar......


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: DieCommie]
    #5492325 - 04/08/06 10:13 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yes. Everyone I've talked to, said the only reason they would move to America would be for money.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (04/08/06 10:14 AM)


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 6,674
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 48 minutes, 44 seconds
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: barfightlard]
    #5492745 - 04/08/06 12:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

In order for there to be money....there has to be opportunity.....is opportunity a negative thing?

I guess it is......I am going to immigrate to Ethiopia


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5492774 - 04/08/06 12:25 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Didn't say it was nor did I imply it.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 6,674
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 48 minutes, 44 seconds
Re: Immigration Vote [Re: barfightlard]
    #5492789 - 04/08/06 12:30 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Bellylard my comment was not directed directly at you, more for the general discussion....sorry if you took it that way


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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