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Invisibleniteowl
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #6319765 - 11/29/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If I were given the option to take my pay from $9.50 per hour to $8 per hour and didn't have to pay any taxes or insurance.....I would gladly take this "pay cut"

However this option is not offered to me. If the people who believe that illegals are OK, then lets even the playing field. Lets change the rules so that every American has the option to stop paying taxes if they give up their voting rights.

How long do you think our society would last?

There would be no more pay for teachers or firefighters or street repair.
Our social structure would be ripped apart in a fairly short time.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Invisiblequiver
freedrug
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Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Phred]
    #6319777 - 11/29/06 09:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

years ago i remember somethng about being born on a ship entitles you to the citizenship of the country that owns the ship but im not sure if it has to be in international waters


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Invisiblequiver
freedrug
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Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6319795 - 11/29/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

dont you claim most of the taxes you pay in earnings back anyway?
here we have gst on fucking everything so even minors pay tax for sweets here

illegals are pretty cluey when it comes to keeping their dollar inside their own illegal community

normal legal citizens like lending to the government to pay for community necessities like cops etc otherwise go live beyond the city limits in barbarian land oh thats right they cant live the american dream on the otherside


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InvisibleBrainiac
Rogue Scientist
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Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
    #6320120 - 11/30/06 12:13 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a Native American ,we where here first, so get  F out  :evil:.


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:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:

Edited by Brainiac (11/30/06 12:14 AM)

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320308 - 11/30/06 01:41 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
What? How can you honestly say that a person who uses the system but never pays into the system is OK.



So, if this is REALLY what the illegal immigration issue is all about, why aren't we cracking down on other populations that use the system but are extremely unlikely to pay into it, you know, like many inner city neighborhoods?

Furthermore, do you really think they wouldn't pay into the system if they had the choice? These people frequently can't use the most vital part of the system: the police and the courts. Assuming that they wouldn't pay taxes if offered citizenship in exchange for being able to call the police without fear is a pretty big, and IMHO unfounded, assumption.

Quote:

niteowl said:
Illegal immigrants never pay into the system.

Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp.



Because, if we let them all become citizens, instead of imposing quotas/restrictions/waiting periods/etc. then they would all start paying taxes NOW. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Phred]
    #6320401 - 11/30/06 02:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Why should I not be granted English citizenship? Those born in England are no more deserving of it than I am.

While I'm at it, I want German, Swedish, Italian, Spanish, and French citizenship. Okay... just kidding about the French citizenship. But let's face it -- those born in Germany didn't achieve anything more to be rewarded for than I did. Nor did those Swedes or Italians or Spanish.

Phred




Because countries are not infinite in size? And if millions more people claimed UK citizenship it's infrastructure would collapse?

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320406 - 11/30/06 02:30 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If I were given the option to take my pay from $9.50 per hour to $8 per hour and didn't have to pay any taxes or insurance.....I would gladly take this "pay cut"



I doubt illegals are paid that much. More like $2.50.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320465 - 11/30/06 03:44 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

"Come to our country and become a citizen. We want more tax paying citizens in our country. We don't want free loaders coming here and stealing our social/economic benefits."




Well said.

> Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp.

I don't know, but most people that I debate against on this issue do not see a difference between illegal immigration and legal immigration. In their mind, they are one in the same.

Could you imagine the uproar if the US had immigration laws like Mexico's? You could only become a US citizen if you had a skill (or occupation) that was needed in the US. If you were poor and looking for a better life... too bad... byebye... and yet the Mexican government has the gall to publish pamphets instructing their people how best to illegally enter the US without getting caught... talk about a double standard.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
    #6320516 - 11/30/06 05:14 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

quiver said:
don't you claim most of the taxes you pay in earnings back anyway?




If i worked a lot of overtime and ended up paying extra money into the system, then I will be able to get some of that money back at the end of the year.

If I didn't pay enough taxes.....then I will have to pay the government money at the end of the year.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6320529 - 11/30/06 05:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

RandalFlagg.....

As far as a solution to the immigration problem. There needs to be the ability for the illegals that are currently in the U.S. to apply for citizenship. Give them 12 months to get their paperwork in. Give them citizenship for those who want to stay or a workers permit for those that don't.

After the year is up begin fining the companies who employ these illegals, and send the ones that are still here back across the border.

There also needs to be a quicker way for people to become citizens. It shouldn't take more than 4-6 months to get this process completed. There shouldn't be a 1-2 year waiting period to acquire citizenship.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320582 - 11/30/06 06:33 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> There needs to be the ability for the illegals that are currently in the U.S. to apply for citizenship.

I disagree. Ship the illegals out. In fact, I would go so far as to block the possibility of citizenship or reentry for those that are caught in the country illegally. If this creates a vacuum, then allow more people that are legally waiting to immigrate to enter the country. Reward those that are following the rules and get rid of those that broke the law to get into the country in the first place.

> There shouldn't be a 1-2 year waiting period to acquire citizenship.

Why not? Citizenship is a big deal, not some fly by night whim. One of my employees just got his US citizenship. It took him four years. He has been in the country, legally, during those four years. Do not confuse citizenship with the right to work in the US. People that are legally in the immigration system working on their citizenship do not have to sit at the border waiting. There seems to be a lot of confusion with respect to how this sort of thing works.

> After the year is up begin fining the companies who employ these illegals

Why wait? If a company has knowingly hired illegals, then the company needs to be fined and the people that approved the illegal hires need to be sent to jail. This isn't a consensual crime like drug use or gay sex. The illegals are literally stealing from every single person that pays taxes, is unemployed, or is waiting to legally immigrate into the country.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6320608 - 11/30/06 07:02 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Furthermore, do you really think they wouldn't pay into the system if they had the choice?

You just don't seem to get that they DO have the choice. It requires they apply like everyone else, wait in line like everyone else, then become American citizens, like everyone else.

Why are you so hell-bent on defending people who are butting in line? I don't understand this.

Because, if we let them all become citizens, instead of imposing quotas/restrictions/waiting periods/etc. then they would all start paying taxes NOW. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

Do you seriously think that instantly allowing the entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country to just come here uncontrolled would do anything but cause far more harm than good?

I mean, seriously, take a step back and look at what you're suggesting! :shake:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320615 - 11/30/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There needs to be the ability for the illegals that are currently in the U.S. to apply for citizenship. Give them 12 months to get their paperwork in.

This was already done back in the 90s. Illegals were given amnesty and they took it, butting in front of everyone waiting in the legal immigration line.

Now we have a fresh new batch of illegals. Should we do the amnesty thing again, letting them all butt in line ahead of all those they left back home applying for legal entry?

And what, do it a third time in 10 more years? Give those waiting in line for legal immigration a reason to say 'fuck this waiting shit' and come here illegally knowing they'll eventually get amnesty without waiting in line? Where will it end?

The solution is to kick out the illegals, allow more and faster legal immigration, and tighten the borders.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (11/30/06 07:21 AM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6320784 - 11/30/06 08:58 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think that tightening the border will solve the immigration problem. They would just find other ways to get here.

They have to have the opportunity of being here taken away from them. Make it harder on them to find work once they are here illegally. Mainly by fining the people who hire them. If the government started heavily fining these companies then they will be less likely to hire them in the future. Making it harder for the illegals to find work.

This problem will not go away until the employers of illegal immigrants are punished in some fashion.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320907 - 11/30/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

They have to have the opportunity of being here taken away from them. Make it harder on them to find work once they are here illegally. Mainly by fining the people who hire them. If the government started heavily fining these companies then they will be less likely to hire them in the future. Making it harder for the illegals to find work.

I don't think this will work. Here's why:

In Miami's Little Havana area, the density of illegals is staggering. They have a tight network of legal family members already living here who will harbor them and find them work under the table. The employers who give them work are all also recent immigrants and their legal co-employees are also recent immigrants. Nobody tells on anybody else.

It's effectively impossible to enforce immigration laws in an environment where the community is almost 100% immigrants who back each other up and cover for each other.

Enforcement works in a place like Iowa where an illegal sticks out like a sore thumb, but in Miami (and LA, and lots of other cities with high concentrations of illegals) enforcing the law isn't practical.

Tightening the border, however, WILL work. If there's an unclimbable fence, no one will get past that. And it will have the added benefit of potentially preventing a terrorist attack originating in Mexico.

How does the saying go? Good fences make good neighbors. That adage is apropos.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #6320922 - 11/30/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think Odiumjunkie raises a valid point. There is no inherent reason why those born in America are more deserving of these benefits than those born in Mexico. I think it should also be said that most of the problems attributed to illegal immigration would be essentially the same if there was a similar increase in population by other means. If we were truly to fair about it, all national borders would be abolished. But we don't want fairness. We want privilege. And illegal immigration does indeed threaten America's privileges.




You sir are an _______.

You can guess at that. I hope you like your country being raped by those who wish to conquer by numbers.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6320933 - 11/30/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I work with about 65 Hispanic people and they ALL have an illegal relative(s) spitting out babies and picking up checks and going to the hospital for free. One who works directly with me has a sister with some major medical problems and has had over $100,000 in medical care but shes an illegal and still the hospital keeps doing more and more for her. Plus the lady gets a check for taking care of her sisters retarded 14yo son.

What's even more fucked up is that there are currently ~50 million hard-working American citizens who can't afford medical insurance. They walk a tightrope every day and risk losing everything they've worked for to a single serious illness.

Meanwhile, illegals bypass their compatriots who've been waiting in line, sometimes for years, to legally immigrate. And once here, they get preferential access to medical services over uninsured Americans plus automatic citizenship and indefinite free medical care if they can manage to pop out one more tick on the human overpopulation counter while in this country.

And all this even as Americans have fewer children themselves for lack of resources to pay for their upbringing.

That sucks.  :thumbdown:




That right there is why America in 100 years will most likely be apart of Mexico. When America is made up of 80% Latinos(and don't say it will never happen, current trends dictate it's a matter of when, not if) who do you think they will vote for, what will be the policies of these people put into power.

Call me an alarmist, what ever you like, but the fact is, if things keep on going the way they are, it's simply a matter of when.

Unless of course, your government gets off their asses and does something.


To the people arguing for illegal immigration, and/or unlimited legal immigration. What do you think would happen if you took 500 million Indian, or Chinease....they are just looking for a better life after all.

You have to draw a line at some point and ask "what is in MY best interest". Yeah, it sounds horrilbe, but the world is a pretty horrible place sometimes.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

Edited by Hank, FTW (11/30/06 10:05 AM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6321069 - 11/30/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Building a fence is not going to stop them from coming here. Tunnels can be built and they can be smuggled into the US.

It will take a combination of government fines for hiring illegals and a different border strategdy.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6321882 - 11/30/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You just don't seem to get that they DO have the choice. It requires they apply like everyone else, wait in line like everyone else, then become American citizens, like everyone else.

Why are you so hell-bent on defending people who are butting in line? I don't understand this.



Do you know how long the current line is for many parts of the world?

Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?

Furthermore, the US has a historically low unemployment rate. The illegals aren't actually taking any jobs. There are many posts in this thread that make this claim, but so long as the unemployment rate is at 4% (compare that to 8% or even 10% during the 1980s and early 1990s) there are simply enough jobs to go around.

Personally, I want our economy to benefit from the skill and output of these immigrants, and I think we could benefit a lot more than we currently are if we laxed immigration laws.

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you seriously think that instantly allowing the entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country to just come here uncontrolled would do anything but cause far more harm than good?

I mean, seriously, take a step back and look at what you're suggesting!



I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws, you can see the relevant document here:
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/i-2.5/

You will notice no quotas or mandatory waiting periods for basic entry and temporary or permanent residency. And yet Canada hasn't been flooded with the "entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country"

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Invisiblequiver
freedrug
Male

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Brainiac]
    #6323013 - 11/30/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i have the freckle gene,neanderthal is my great great great something
you owe me compensation for killing my ancestors,i wont accept blankets btw :stoned:


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