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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Illegal Immigration
    #6300000 - 11/19/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I am annoyed at how some people characterize everybody who is against illegal immigrants as being a racist or a xenophone.  I (and many other people) are against illegal immigrants because they cost us money.  It is very common for illegals to come to America and either work under the table or work very low-paying official jobs.  So, they are either not paying any money into the system or they are paying very little into the system.  Yet they often will enroll their children in public schools, get their kids on the Medicaid program, and apply for other benefits.  So, they may pay several thousand a year in taxes but they are taking tens of thousands of dollars in benefits.  I don't like this.  It is the equivalent of somebody moving into your home against your will and proceeding to give you $50 a month all the while incurring $500 a month in expenses for you.

I'm not a racist.  I don't fear minorities.  I don't desire to "keep America white" or some nonsense like that.  I just don't want my money taken away from me and spent on people who have no legal right to be here.  :shrug:

So, what do we do?  Do we continue doing what we are doing (which has proven completely inneffective).  Do we grant amnesty for current illegals?  Do we offer "guest worker visas" for non-Americans?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300085 - 11/19/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I certainly don't think it's racist to oppose illegal immigration. However, I think that it's a bit unrealistic to just have an all-out war against it. I support the idea of guest-worker visas, to help keep it under control.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #6300126 - 11/19/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Good point. It is almost impossible to stop such a huge problem that is being driven by market forces. When money is involved people manage to find a way around the law. Americans and American companies want cheap labor and Mexicans can make more money in America than they do in their native country.

But, what we are doing isn't working and we need to come up with some new policies.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300162 - 11/19/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

there needs to be a system in place where they can come here to work, but must be registered and approved, and must pay taxes required to fund the program. they've got to be at least 16 and they must be here to work. they should not be eligible for social services and their kids don't become citizens by being born here. there ya go.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: wilshire]
    #6300276 - 11/19/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

That is as impossible as the war on drugs...it would be a huge waste of rescources for little effect. You can't hunt out every illegal and you can't seperate people from their children or stop them from having them.

There already is a system where they can come here and work...its called the naturalization process. We need to offer quicker naturalization and MORE of it to peoples from latin ameria for one. They moreso than any other share the elements of America's culture for one thing and they amount to the majority of illegals (IME, anyway).


Guest worker programs will be used to subvert the worker unions already in place in agriculture and the like and will make job benefits and wages worse off for the americans already here. Instead of illegals coming and stealing american jobs it wil be the government doling out labor and stealing american jobs. This would make a guest worker program a huge, corrupt, trap. American agribusiness already has half the politicians in their pocket and this would only increase that problem

Another thing would be to seriously take a look at the effect of trade agreements from the past 25 years simply from a cost/benefit POV considering this issue.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300293 - 11/19/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I think the reason people take that stance is those most adamently opposed to illegal immigration take a rascist tone and frame your side of the argument. It happens with all political topics, like enviornmentalism. Most americans are for enviornmental ideas to some degree but the ones most in favor of it are downright fanatcis sometimes so to call yourself an enviornmentalist immediately brings about all sorts of assumptions


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300675 - 11/19/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Its interesting because illegal immigrants, mainly being from Mexico, tend to work in the fields, and do jobs that pay minimum wage, or under minimum wage at best. The only way they would do these jobs is because they are suppressed from achieving anything because they are illegal.

I worked at a restaurant  for a few years where we employed a lot of Mexicans, who I absolutely loved working with. They would talk about their cousins, brothers, etc working out in the fields who were making $5/hr. This is $1.75 under minimum wage!

Of course, since they are suppressed, they cannot go to the city and complain about not making minimum wages!

Living in San Diego most my life, and living in California my entire life, I don't really see how they are costing us money. Yes, there is probably a percent of illegals who are milking the government in some way.

But most, and I mean MOST Mexicans that I know of or see, WORK THEIR ASSES OFF. They make enough to get by. The taxes raised from them (if they were taxed), wouldn't be even that much of a incentive to the government in my opinion.

I feel white and black people who are legal milk the system MUCH MORE, with social programs and whatnot.

How do illegals milk the system if they aren't even legal?!? Thats what I dont understand. How are they able to milk the system if they aren't even known to be in the country?! (Besides the fact they dont pay taxes on their HUGE salaries  :rolleyes:)

My $.02

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300688 - 11/19/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Randalflagg,

I think the problem is that you are blaming immigrants for a plethora of other, senseless laws that aren't their fault.

Let's examine some of your concerns:
Immigrants take low-paying "under the table" jobs.

Is this the fault of immigrants, or the fault of an artificially high minimum wage, and federal employee benefit requirements? If those jobs were offered on the open market to everyone it's highly likely that unemployed citizens would pick them up.

We know that the free market has set wages much higher than the minimum wage in many areas (i.e. New York City), so isn't it likely that the "natural wage" in many areas would actually be lower than the minimum wage? Areas like rural Texas or rural Arizona, where many illegal immigrants settle?

What if we had a system where communities set their own minimum wages? Then rural Texas could set a lower wage and become more competitive, allowing illegitimate jobs to become legitimate and employment to florish among citizens.

Then you make the claim about taxes.

Again, who's fault is that? We're the ones who arrest and deport them if they register for taxes. If we let them become citizens, they'd ALL be paying taxes.

As for medicaid and education, again is that the fault of the immigrants? It's no secret that the American public school system already spends more per pupil than its European counterparts for lower-returns. Is it the fault of immigrants that we have established a grossly inneficient system? If we cleaned the system up and made it more efficient, wouldn't that be a better idea than spending even MORE money trying to keep illegal immigrants out?

The same thing goes for Medicare. It's our fault for offering it in the first place. Why don't we just with hold treatment? Or better yet, why don't we set up a more efficient system overall?

It seems like you're trying to blame a lot of America's systematic problems on immigrants, when the real problem is inefficiency on the part of American institutions.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6300749 - 11/19/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Immigrants built this country, despite the popular opinion that we built this city on rock and roll. :grin:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: angryshroom]
    #6300756 - 11/19/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

angryshroom said:
How do illegals milk the system if they aren't even legal?!? Thats what I dont understand. How are they able to milk the system if they aren't even known to be in the country?!




They often send their kids to public schools. The last time I checked it costs about $10,000-$15,000 a year to educate a child in a public school. They also are sometimes able to get their kids on Medicaid (where the government pays for the medical expenses of poor people). There also have been instances of them getting public subsidized housing. And, let's not forget when illegals get sick, go to the emergency room, and end up not paying the hospital bill.

Illegals cost us a lot of money plain and simple.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300792 - 11/19/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
They often send their kids to public schools.  The last time I checked it costs about $10,000-$15,000 a year to educate a child in a public school.




Yeah, it is just awful when we educate a young child. :mad:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6300795 - 11/19/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
As for medicaid and education, again is that the fault of the immigrants?




It is their fault when they use these programs and they do not pay into the system. I consider that to be theft.

Quote:

Economist said:
If we cleaned the system up and made it more efficient, wouldn't that be a better idea than spending even MORE money trying to keep illegal immigrants out?




Maybe. I'm open to any suggestions which save the country money because I am a fiscal conservative. If we determine that it is in our financial interest for illegals to stay...then so be it. I think the whole illegal immigrant issue should be decided upon economics; are they giving or taking from this country? If they are giving more than they are taking then they can stay. If they are taking more than they are giving something needs to be done.

Quote:

Economist said:
It seems like you're trying to blame a lot of America's systematic problems on immigrants, when the real problem is inefficiency on the part of American institutions.




You misunderstand me. In my opinion there are much bigger problems facing this country than illegal immgration. But, it is still a problem that is worthy of discussion.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6300798 - 11/19/06 09:48 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
They often send their kids to public schools.  The last time I checked it costs about $10,000-$15,000 a year to educate a child in a public school.




Yeah, it is just awful when we educate a young child. :mad:

:levitate:




It is awful when a child that does not belong in this country takes our resources when we are already deeply in debt.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300807 - 11/19/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I personally think that we should be careful with the flow of people into this country. I certainly do not think we should be overly discriminate. Ultimately, I think that the more variety of people we have in this country, the more opportunity we all have to succeed. Immigration is the heart of this country, when one really thinks about it. We should prevent individuals arriving in this country without being processed through the system, but should ensure that our system will allow anyone who has something to offer this country by being here in. We need to successfully integrate new people into our society to avoid the opportunities that other nations have with doing so. :wink:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300820 - 11/19/06 09:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
It is awful when a child that does not belong in this country takes our resources when we are already deeply in debt.




I think the main reason we are deeply in debt is our government's deficit spending, but, regardless, if one enertains the notion that this child does not belong in this country, and thus is not worth our resources to educate as a child that does belong in this country, then one must accept the fact that it is our responsibiliy that the child is in the country in the first place. We let them in, intentionally or not. We accept the burden that is not maintaining a secure border. We pay either way, and, at least this way, another human being is receiving knowledge and understanding. :smirk:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6300822 - 11/19/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

By all means, if it is in our interest to let them in then let them in. If it isn't in our interest to let them in then don't let them in. And if they come in they need to go through the proper channels.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6300845 - 11/19/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I think the main reason we are deeply in debt is our government's deficit spending




Um....yeah.  That's common sense.  :smirk:

And what has the government been spending money on that has put us in the hole so much?  The biggest expenses the U.S. federal government incurs are the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, welfare stuff, etc...), the military, education stuff, and interest payments on the debt that we already have.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
one must accept the fact that it is our responsibiliy that the child is in the country in the first place. We let them in, intentionally or not.




We must take responsibility for people who should not be here?

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
We accept the burden that is not maintaining a secure border. We pay either way, and, at least this way, another human being is receiving knowledge and understanding. :smirk:




True.  It costs money to have them here and it costs money to patrol our border to stop them.  However, it would probably just be cheaper and easier to shoot anybody that attempted to come over the border.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300875 - 11/19/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
By all means, if it is in our interest to let them in then let them in.  If it isn't in our interest to let them in then don't let them in.  And if they come in they need to go through the proper channels.




This is my stance, ultimately. I think we would need to explore what constitutes "our interest", of course. As long as the person worked and contributed something to society, then that is enough for me. They definitely need to be accounted for, as well. :grin: I couldn't imagine the government taking inventory of its people every year. :lol:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6300894 - 11/19/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
And what has the government been spending money on that has put us in the hole so much?  The biggest expenses the U.S. federal government incurs are the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, welfare stuff, etc...), the military, education stuff, and interest payments on the debt that we already have.




Makes sense. Now, how much do you expect illegal immigrants to be an aspect of these expenses? Is it a signfigant factor?

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
We must take responsibility for people who should not be here?




Of course we should, as we are responsible for their being here ("here" is our responsibility). I'm not stating that the fact they are here designates that they must remain here as though they are suspossed to be here, but, in one way or another, we have to assume responsibility for them, by either preventing their presence in our country, providing services to them when they take them, or by identifying them and then removing them from this country.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
True.  It costs money to have them here and it costs money to patrol our border to stop them.  However, it would probably just be cheaper and easier to shoot anybody that attempted to come over the border.




Perhaps, yet how cheap and easy a solution is, thankfully, is not the only thing we take into consideration. :wink: You can't blame them for wanting to be here, after all. :grin:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6301649 - 11/20/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Isn't this the consequence of free market economics? If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour? Surely allowing millions of immigrants into the country would drive wages through the floor and increase business profits enormously? Isn't this the kind of society free marketeers dream of?

The UK has similar problems. Interestingly we're at the stage where there are so many immigrants putting British people out of work by undercutting their wages that the number of people in work is rising while unemployment is rising too.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6301719 - 11/20/06 03:57 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> I am annoyed at how some people characterize everybody who is against illegal immigrants as being a racist or a xenophone.

I am against illegal immigration and I am certainly not racist of xenophobic.

> So, what do we do?

I don't see what the big problem is. Punish those that hire or support illegal immigrants. No citizenship if born in the US unless at least one of the parents is also a citizen. Increase man power to get rid of illegals and watch the borders. For every illegal deported, allow one extra "legal" person on the waiting list entry into the country in order to maintain the status quo. Charge the country that the illegal is from for the costs of sending the person back and for tax payers loss while that person was here.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
    #6302288 - 11/20/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Isn't this the consequence of free market economics?




Yes.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?




I have nothing against the free movement of labor in most cases. However, I am not dogmatic with my economic principles. If something isn't working then you need to do things to correct it...even if it happens to go against your basic ideology. But, I was not talking about the free movement of labor with my post; I was talking about non-citizens mooching off of the system and barely paying anything into it.

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: angryshroom]
    #6302339 - 11/20/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Living in San Diego most my life, and living in California my entire life, I don't really see how they are costing us money. Yes, there is probably a percent of illegals who are milking the government in some way.




Yes a LARGE percent..  Ever wonder why a new hospital is forced to close every year in SoCal?  Its because of mexicans not paying their bill.

I work with a lady who bags groceries at my store for minimum wage.  She used to work for the county at the welfare office where she knows first hand how illegals come over fresh from the fence, walk in and walk out with a check for $400.  ANY pregnant woman coming across automatically gets unlimited free medical care PLUS $400 a week until the baby is born.  Then they can apply for real assistance and get an average $660 a week.  FREE.

And all that money comes from you and me.

I work with about 65 Hispanic people and they ALL have an illegal relative(s) spitting out babies and picking up checks and going to the hospital for free.  One who works directly with me has a sister with some major medical problems and has had over $100,000 in medical care but shes an illegal and still the hospital keeps doing more and more for her.  Plus the lady gets a check for taking care of her sisters retarded 14yo son. :confused:

The amount of welfare given to illegals is out of control..  We should cut off all funding immediately and until we change our medical system we should turn away any illegal seeking medical attention.


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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6302493 - 11/20/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It is not up to America to take on the population of Mexico and other central American populations. Why don't those governments start supporting their own populations? I am just happy I am in Canada, but already I have heard stories from a friend in Vancouver, of Mexican gangsters setting up shop in the drug trade over there.

I realize most of the people coming across the border just want a better life, but they are getting it at the expense of your native population. At some point you have to say "what is in the best interest of MY country".

Just my humble opinion.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6302702 - 11/20/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> I don't really see how they are costing us money.

Huge cost!

> walk in and walk out with a check for $400.

No they don't. Checks leave a paper trail. They are paid in cash. Tax free.

> The amount of welfare given to illegals is out of control..

Yep.

> We should cut off all funding immediately and until we change our medical system we should turn away any illegal seeking medical attention.

Slipper sloap for me on this one. I have compassion, but I don't like to be taken advantage of.

> I realize most of the people coming across the border just want a better life, but they are getting it at the expense of your native population.

Not only do they screw the native population, but the screw every single person that is waiting to come over legally as well.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6304325 - 11/20/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
True. It costs money to have them here and it costs money to patrol our border to stop them. However, it would probably just be cheaper and easier to shoot anybody that attempted to come over the border.



I still don't understand.

Wouldn't it ACTUALLY be cheapest to just give everyone citizenship and make them all taxable as a result?

I don't know if you realize it, but you're using the exact same arguments used to back the war on drugs but you're applying it to immigration instead of drugs.

Let's restrict drugs is equivalent to let's restrict citizenship.

Addicts put a strain on police and treatment resources is the same as illegals put a strain on hospitals and education. In both cases, if the underlying restriction wasn't there (possession or citizenship) then the costs associated wouldn't be there (less need for police, and immigrants pay taxes).

But instead of legalization, you're going in favor of greater restrictions and greater punishment. Increase border controls, increase punishments (you've even suggesting lethality here).

In both cases, drugs and immigration, the cheapest most effective method would be to simply remove the restrictions causing the problem.

Allow the sale and possession of drugs, and give citizenship to anyone that wants it. The tax revenue alone should make these options more efficient than the current scheme.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6304940 - 11/21/06 02:50 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
Isn't this the consequence of free market economics?




Yes.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?




I have nothing against the free movement of labor in most cases. However, I am not dogmatic with my economic principles. If something isn't working then you need to do things to correct it...even if it happens to go against your basic ideology. But, I was not talking about the free movement of labor with my post; I was talking about non-citizens mooching off of the system and barely paying anything into it.




Isn't the "system" what every free marketeer hates most tho? Sure it might not do the system any good but every illegal worker is boosting the market enormously by working for slave labour rates.

Why not simply allow every immigrant who wants entry into the US? That would drive wages down until unless americans were willing to live 18 to one room like the immigrants they would all be put out of work.

Isn't this the logical consequence of the free market? People on the right seemed quite happy when business went abroad to hire cheap labour, now business is learning it doesn't need to go abroad. Cheap immigrant labour will come to it in America.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6304977 - 11/21/06 03:24 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I don't know if you realize it, but you're using the exact same arguments used to back the war on drugs but you're applying it to immigration instead of drugs.




The difference is in who it effects. Illegal immigration is like an illegal withdraw from a bank (robbery). The person making the withdraw benefits while everybody else suffers. When I eat a mushroom, or smoke some DMT, the only person that suffers is me. The illegal immigration debate and the illegal drug debate have almost nothing in common.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6305027 - 11/27/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?

the unregulated movement of labor across the border is just fine. the unregulated movement of people is not.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: wilshire]
    #6306739 - 11/28/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
If you want free movement of capital why not have free movement of labour?

the unregulated movement of labor across the border is just fine. the unregulated movement of people is not.




So you believe that if there are immigrants who will live 18 to one room and undercut american workers they should simply be employed in preference to american workers?

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6306799 - 11/28/06 03:32 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

not really,people around you suffer if you fuck up on drugs but i agree about apples and oranges being fruit but different kinds of fruit

scabs are scabs,they undermine everyone/everything cept themselves


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
    #6306824 - 11/28/06 04:15 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> not really,people around you suffer if you fuck up on drugs

People around me might suffer from my drug use the same way people aroudn me might suffer from my car use. If I rob a bank, there is no might about it.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6306844 - 11/28/06 05:10 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The illegal immigrant might benefit to a small extent but certainly nowhere near the benefit of the business employing him.

I thought the free market rule was if business benefits we all somehow benefit?

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
    #6306918 - 11/28/06 06:50 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So you believe that if there are immigrants who will live 18 to one room and undercut american workers they should simply be employed in preference to american workers?

yes. that extra money that people would otherwise be spending on say, farm labor, doesn't just disappear. it's spent in other areas, creating jobs. if this were not the case, it would be economically beneficial, if impractical and unjust, to deport a large amount of the naturalized workforce to boost wages. such a strategy, like nearly all government interferences in the free market, would not only be impractical and unjust, but make matters worse economically.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6307045 - 11/28/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
The difference is in who it effects. Illegal immigration is like an illegal withdraw from a bank (robbery). The person making the withdraw benefits while everybody else suffers. When I eat a mushroom, or smoke some DMT, the only person that suffers is me. The illegal immigration debate and the illegal drug debate have almost nothing in common.



I'm not really clear on the "everyone else suffers" part.

Last I checked, illegal immigration allows prices of most farming produce, and other cosumer goods to remain low. As with anything else necessary for life, cheaper food helps the American poor more than any other group.

I don't think it's clear that if all the jobs going to illegals went to legal workers instead that the benefits of more employment would outweigh the benefits of unemployment. This is especially important right now given our extremely low unemployment rates, I just don't know if there are Americans who would take those jobs at all.

@Alex213

Wow, talk about some strawmen.

The point of free markets is most certainly NOT "Whatever is good for a business is good for us all," Were this true, then so-called "corporate welfare" would be something free-marketeers agreed with, instead of something they opposed.

The situation with illegal immigrants living 18 to a room is the result of regulation, not the free market. Illegal immigrants have to live that way because they are breaking the law by being here. If they gained citizenship, they could begin to participate in the open market for housing.

Claiming that they would still live 18 to a room if they were legal is like claiming that crack-gang related violence would still continue if crack were legalized. As we learned during alcohol prohibition, once the underlying cause is legalized, the negative externalitites go away.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: wilshire]
    #6307087 - 11/28/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
So you believe that if there are immigrants who will live 18 to one room and undercut american workers they should simply be employed in preference to american workers?

yes. that extra money that people would otherwise be spending on say, farm labor, doesn't just disappear. it's spent in other areas, creating jobs. if this were not the case, it would be economically beneficial, if impractical and unjust, to deport a large amount of the naturalized workforce to boost wages. such a strategy, like nearly all government interferences in the free market, would not only be impractical and unjust, but make matters worse economically.




So you're saying that if millions of chinese or indian people want to come to the United States to work then you can see absolutely no problem with that? No matter how many americans they put out of work?

Supposing one of them took your job by offering to undercut your wage by two-thirds, what would you do?

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6307102 - 11/28/06 08:55 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The situation with illegal immigrants living 18 to a room is the result of regulation,

No, it's happening in the UK with legal immigrants. Business knows it can pay them a pittance with next to no chance of ever being caught and the immigrants are forced to live 18 to a room because they can't afford anything else. There's little to no regulation here in the UK. At least 600,000 immigrants have arrived in just the last 2 years. It's the greatest level of immigration Britain has ever experienced. The government has realised immigrants drive wages through the floor and keep inflation down and are encouraging as many as they possibly can.

If they gained citizenship, they could begin to participate in the open market for housing.


Nope, even when they're legal they still work for wages you can't buy accomodation with.

Claiming that they would still live 18 to a room if they were legal

It's not a claim, this is how legal immigrants are living in Britain right now. They are willing to undercut the living wage because compared to the money they get in Poland it's worth it.

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6307482 - 11/28/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

people suffer from pollution because of car use regardless of how hopeless you are behind the wheel...same as people around you will suffer *when you fuck up on drugs

*i was going to put when/if but you seem picky


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
    #6307762 - 11/28/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So you're saying that if millions of chinese or indian people want to come to the United States to work then you can see absolutely no problem with that?

not as a result of them working, no.

No matter how many americans they put out of work?

look, it's not like there is a fixed number of jobs available, and every time an immigrant goes to work, a native gets canned. do you know where jobs come from?

Supposing one of them took your job by offering to undercut your wage by two-thirds, what would you do?

i don't know... maybe i'd blame my poor fortune on those damn foreigners who are willing to work for less than i am (how dare they) and start demanding the government keep my employer from hiring them, ignoring the creation of jobs and wealth resulting elsewhere.  :shrug:


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
    #6308185 - 11/28/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
No, it's happening in the UK with legal immigrants. Business knows it can pay them a pittance with next to no chance of ever being caught and the immigrants are forced to live 18 to a room because they can't afford anything else.



Can you provide some sources for some of this? Not just that there's one instance of 18 people living in one room, but what their wages were and how that compared to rents in the area.

In the US migrant workers and illegal workers usually earn enough money to afford a reasonable rent, however, they are price-gouged by landlords who know they are illegal. This is documented by both the the US government gov/srd/papers/pdf/ex95-22.pdf]http://www.census[dot]gov/srd/papers/pdf/ex95-22.pdf see page 29, and the media:

Quote:

In most areas farm workers pay inordinately high rent for substandard, overcrowded housing close to work pick-up sites. In Immokalee, the majority of migrant workers live in a nine-block area adjacent to the parking lot by the coalition’s office.
...
Given the figures provided by Cortez and other workers, the owners of the trailers and apartments are getting around $1,500 to $2,000 per month for their units, obviously far more than normal market value in the area.




from: http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featlydersen_immokalee.shtml

A quick check of real estate prices in rural Florida reveals that $750-$1000/mo will rent you a very reasonable multiple-bedroom apartment (http://www.2chambers.com/immokalee,_florida.htm you may need to sign in to view apartment rents, sorry but I can't find a workaround). In other words, if the tenants were able to rent on the open market in rural Florida, they would not have to live the way they do.

It's also important to remember that legal/illegal status isn't the only barrier to market participation. In both Britain and the United States there's probably a significant language barrier, as well as a question of who is "trustworthy".

Nonetheless, from the available accounts, it seems like immigrant living conditions in the US have everything to do with their immigration status and very little to do with their wages.

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: wilshire]
    #6309170 - 11/28/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
i don't know... maybe i'd blame my poor fortune on those damn foreigners who are willing to work for less than i am (how dare they) and start demanding the government keep my employer from hiring them, ignoring the creation of jobs and wealth resulting elsewhere.  :shrug:




why not blame your employer for spitting in your face as a reward for your loyalty?


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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6318005 - 11/29/06 05:24 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I don't understand why you think you deserve american citizenship but people born in mexico don't...

is being born inside of the USA some kind of achievement you deserve to be rewarded for?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: OJK]
    #6318034 - 11/29/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> I don't understand why you think you deserve american citizenship but people born in mexico don't...

So you wouldn't mind if some random stranger comes over to your house for a few years to crash... and it wouldn't bother you to feed this person, and his family... It isn't really your house, so you don't really deserve to get to keep it all to yourself... it really belongs to the people of Earth.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: OJK]
    #6318035 - 11/29/06 07:21 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Why should I not be granted English citizenship? Those born in England are no more deserving of it than I am.

While I'm at it, I want German, Swedish, Italian, Spanish, and French citizenship. Okay... just kidding about the French citizenship. But let's face it -- those born in Germany didn't achieve anything more to be rewarded for than I did. Nor did those Swedes or Italians or Spanish.



Phred


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: OJK]
    #6318086 - 11/29/06 08:11 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Odiumjunkie said:
I don't understand why you think you deserve american citizenship but people born in mexico don't...




He never said they didn't deserve citizenship.
Actually he implied the opposite.
He would rather see them as legal citizens instead of illegal immigrants.
When illegal immigrants mooch off the system....every one suffers, even the illegals eventually.

Citizenship should be given to any person wanting to come into this country. They should be given a SSN and allowed to go to work wherever they want.....as legal tax paying citizens.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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InvisibleOJK
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6318167 - 11/29/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
So you wouldn't mind if some random stranger comes over to your house for a few years to crash... and it wouldn't bother you to feed this person, and his family... It isn't really your house, so you don't really deserve to get to keep it all to yourself... it really belongs to the people of Earth.




If it was my house, I would certainly mind - however, if it was a house that I shared with millions and millions of other people, who were also strangers, then no, I would not mind. I would think that I had no more right to be in the house than any other person, as I couldn't claim ownership of it.

The analogy of a country as a house is unhelpful, because a house is not generally shared with strangers, and a house is a physical good, which can be bought and sold. One acquires a house with capital. One does not acquire citizenship with capital. If a house was shared with strangers, as a country is, and I could not claim to own the house, as I can not claim to own a country, why would I mind the strangers I shared the house were? Why would I mind where they were from?

Likewise, it would bother me no more to feed one stranger over another. I have no greater problem feeding (which, I assume, you use an analogy for paying taxes) a stranger born in Scotland than I do a stranger born in Poland. (Currently, Scotland, my country of residence, is experiencing a massive influx of Polish immigrants.)

I would accept your argument if citizenship was earned, through some kind of test which everyone was eligible to sit. If I had to pass a test to live in the house, and I was only required to feed other people who had passed the test, then yes, having someone who had not passed such a test live in the house and eat food I provide would bother me. This, as far as I can see, is not the case with citizenship. Being born inside of a country's borders is not a test.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6318181 - 11/29/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I work with about 65 Hispanic people and they ALL have an illegal relative(s) spitting out babies and picking up checks and going to the hospital for free. One who works directly with me has a sister with some major medical problems and has had over $100,000 in medical care but shes an illegal and still the hospital keeps doing more and more for her. Plus the lady gets a check for taking care of her sisters retarded 14yo son.

What's even more fucked up is that there are currently ~50 million hard-working American citizens who can't afford medical insurance. They walk a tightrope every day and risk losing everything they've worked for to a single serious illness.

Meanwhile, illegals bypass their compatriots who've been waiting in line, sometimes for years, to legally immigrate. And once here, they get preferential access to medical services over uninsured Americans plus automatic citizenship and indefinite free medical care if they can manage to pop out one more tick on the human overpopulation counter while in this country.

And all this even as Americans have fewer children themselves for lack of resources to pay for their upbringing.

That sucks.  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6318184 - 11/29/06 09:02 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

one must accept the fact that it is our responsibiliy that the child is in the country in the first place. We let them in, intentionally or not. We accept the burden that is not maintaining a secure border.

C'mon. That's like saying that you must feed a burglar if he can manage to break into your house.  :rolleyes:

Edit: it's spelled burglar.  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (11/29/06 09:18 AM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6318186 - 11/29/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I hate it when buglers break into my house.  I mean, it's bad enough that they break in, but then they have to wake me up with their damn bugling!  :lol:

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: OJK]
    #6318203 - 11/29/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Being born inside of a country's borders is not a test.

No, it isn't a test.
It is a privilege.

I get to live in my country (house) and contribute to it by paying taxes.
If someone is in my country (house) and is not helping with the upkeep......something needs to change......asap.

They need to help out more (pay taxes) or get out of my house!  :crankey:


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: OJK]
    #6318208 - 11/29/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Odiumjunkie said:
I don't understand why you think you deserve american citizenship but people born in mexico don't...

is being born inside of the USA some kind of achievement you deserve to be rewarded for?




They should wait in line, like everyone else.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleOJK
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6318210 - 11/29/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So, are you in favour of deporting, or at least stripping citizenship from, american citizens who live on benefits?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: OJK]
    #6318213 - 11/29/06 09:13 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If it was my house, I would certainly mind - however, if it was a house that I shared with millions and millions of other people, who were also strangers, then no, I would not mind.

The analogy of a country as a house is unhelpful


I think it's a perfect analogy, but how about this one:

You share a communal swimming pool paid for and maintained by the dues you pay your condo association. Would you be willing to let the general public come swim in your communal pool? Probably not.

Just because none of us individually own the USA doesn't mean that it's not ours, for better or worse. We all have a stake in preventing the erosion of our standard of living.

I'm all for compassion, but it has to be given intelligently or the economic dilution that will result in the US will end up hurting poor third-world people in the long run more than tight immigration controls will now.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6318278 - 11/29/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Just because none of us individually own the USA doesn't mean that it's not ours, for better or worse. We all have a stake in preventing the erosion of our standard of living.




You just brought a tear to my eye.

I agree. The infestation of the Mexican onto our land is eroding our way of life and is a threat to our heratige.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6318296 - 11/29/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Why is that so hard for most people to understand? I am from Canada, and I understand what it is doing to your country.

Look at east L.A. it's a sign of things to come.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6318582 - 11/29/06 11:52 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Illegal immigration is excellent for business tho. You can't argue that.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Alex213]
    #6318687 - 11/29/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Illegal immigration is excellent for business tho. You can't argue that.

So were exploited children before labor laws. :shrug:

We should no more take unfair advantage of illegals by making them work for less than minimum wage than we should allow them in ahead of their friends back home seeking to immigrate legally.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: OJK]
    #6319535 - 11/29/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Odiumjunkie said:
So, are you in favour of deporting, or at least stripping citizenship from, american citizens who live on benefits?




Many (if not all) Americans "living off the system" at some point or another, paid money into the system.

Illegals never pay into the system.
They just take money out of the system.

Quote:

Diploid said:
We should no more take unfair advantage of illegals by making them work for less than minimum wage.........




A person paid $5 per hour "cash under the table" will bring home more money than someone getting the minimum wage and having to pay taxes on it

At $5 per hour cash for a forty hour week is $200.
That is $200 take home cash in your pocket at the end of the week.

The same forty hour week @ a minimum wage of $5.75 is $230 pre-tax........
$177 take home after a 23% yank from the government.

An American paying into the system would have to make $6.50 per hour to bring home $200.

The illegals are making more money (not less) than the average American by not having to pay into the system.

:doublefu:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6319574 - 11/29/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think Odiumjunkie raises a valid point. There is no inherent reason why those born in America are more deserving of these benefits than those born in Mexico. I think it should also be said that most of the problems attributed to illegal immigration would be essentially the same if there was a similar increase in population by other means. If we were truly to fair about it, all national borders would be abolished. But we don't want fairness. We want privilege. And illegal immigration does indeed threaten America's privileges.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #6319687 - 11/29/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think Odiumjunkie raises a valid point. There is no inherent reason why those born in America are more deserving of these benefits than those born in Mexico.




What? How can you honestly say that a person who uses the system but never pays into the system is OK.

No one here ever said that being a citizen of the US was some great reward that should be kept only to Americans. What we are trying to say is........

"Come to our country and become a citizen. We want more tax paying citizens in our country. We don't want free loaders coming here and stealing our social/economic benefits."

Quote:

I think it should also be said that most of the problems attributed to illegal immigration would be essentially the same if there was a similar increase in population by other means.




If Americans have more children and raise our population....then these children will be a part of the system and will always pay into the system.

Illegal immigrants never pay into the system.

Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp.

No one wants to prevent Mexicans from becoming American citizens.

We want them to come here and pay taxes but they can make more money by being here illegally.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #6319765 - 11/29/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If I were given the option to take my pay from $9.50 per hour to $8 per hour and didn't have to pay any taxes or insurance.....I would gladly take this "pay cut"

However this option is not offered to me. If the people who believe that illegals are OK, then lets even the playing field. Lets change the rules so that every American has the option to stop paying taxes if they give up their voting rights.

How long do you think our society would last?

There would be no more pay for teachers or firefighters or street repair.
Our social structure would be ripped apart in a fairly short time.


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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Phred]
    #6319777 - 11/29/06 09:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

years ago i remember somethng about being born on a ship entitles you to the citizenship of the country that owns the ship but im not sure if it has to be in international waters


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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6319795 - 11/29/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

dont you claim most of the taxes you pay in earnings back anyway?
here we have gst on fucking everything so even minors pay tax for sweets here

illegals are pretty cluey when it comes to keeping their dollar inside their own illegal community

normal legal citizens like lending to the government to pay for community necessities like cops etc otherwise go live beyond the city limits in barbarian land oh thats right they cant live the american dream on the otherside


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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
    #6320120 - 11/30/06 12:13 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a Native American ,we where here first, so get  F out  :evil:.


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:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:

Edited by Brainiac (11/30/06 12:14 AM)

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320308 - 11/30/06 01:41 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
What? How can you honestly say that a person who uses the system but never pays into the system is OK.



So, if this is REALLY what the illegal immigration issue is all about, why aren't we cracking down on other populations that use the system but are extremely unlikely to pay into it, you know, like many inner city neighborhoods?

Furthermore, do you really think they wouldn't pay into the system if they had the choice? These people frequently can't use the most vital part of the system: the police and the courts. Assuming that they wouldn't pay taxes if offered citizenship in exchange for being able to call the police without fear is a pretty big, and IMHO unfounded, assumption.

Quote:

niteowl said:
Illegal immigrants never pay into the system.

Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp.



Because, if we let them all become citizens, instead of imposing quotas/restrictions/waiting periods/etc. then they would all start paying taxes NOW. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Phred]
    #6320401 - 11/30/06 02:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Why should I not be granted English citizenship? Those born in England are no more deserving of it than I am.

While I'm at it, I want German, Swedish, Italian, Spanish, and French citizenship. Okay... just kidding about the French citizenship. But let's face it -- those born in Germany didn't achieve anything more to be rewarded for than I did. Nor did those Swedes or Italians or Spanish.

Phred




Because countries are not infinite in size? And if millions more people claimed UK citizenship it's infrastructure would collapse?

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320406 - 11/30/06 02:30 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If I were given the option to take my pay from $9.50 per hour to $8 per hour and didn't have to pay any taxes or insurance.....I would gladly take this "pay cut"



I doubt illegals are paid that much. More like $2.50.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320465 - 11/30/06 03:44 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

"Come to our country and become a citizen. We want more tax paying citizens in our country. We don't want free loaders coming here and stealing our social/economic benefits."




Well said.

> Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp.

I don't know, but most people that I debate against on this issue do not see a difference between illegal immigration and legal immigration. In their mind, they are one in the same.

Could you imagine the uproar if the US had immigration laws like Mexico's? You could only become a US citizen if you had a skill (or occupation) that was needed in the US. If you were poor and looking for a better life... too bad... byebye... and yet the Mexican government has the gall to publish pamphets instructing their people how best to illegally enter the US without getting caught... talk about a double standard.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
    #6320516 - 11/30/06 05:14 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

quiver said:
don't you claim most of the taxes you pay in earnings back anyway?




If i worked a lot of overtime and ended up paying extra money into the system, then I will be able to get some of that money back at the end of the year.

If I didn't pay enough taxes.....then I will have to pay the government money at the end of the year.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6320529 - 11/30/06 05:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

RandalFlagg.....

As far as a solution to the immigration problem. There needs to be the ability for the illegals that are currently in the U.S. to apply for citizenship. Give them 12 months to get their paperwork in. Give them citizenship for those who want to stay or a workers permit for those that don't.

After the year is up begin fining the companies who employ these illegals, and send the ones that are still here back across the border.

There also needs to be a quicker way for people to become citizens. It shouldn't take more than 4-6 months to get this process completed. There shouldn't be a 1-2 year waiting period to acquire citizenship.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320582 - 11/30/06 06:33 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> There needs to be the ability for the illegals that are currently in the U.S. to apply for citizenship.

I disagree. Ship the illegals out. In fact, I would go so far as to block the possibility of citizenship or reentry for those that are caught in the country illegally. If this creates a vacuum, then allow more people that are legally waiting to immigrate to enter the country. Reward those that are following the rules and get rid of those that broke the law to get into the country in the first place.

> There shouldn't be a 1-2 year waiting period to acquire citizenship.

Why not? Citizenship is a big deal, not some fly by night whim. One of my employees just got his US citizenship. It took him four years. He has been in the country, legally, during those four years. Do not confuse citizenship with the right to work in the US. People that are legally in the immigration system working on their citizenship do not have to sit at the border waiting. There seems to be a lot of confusion with respect to how this sort of thing works.

> After the year is up begin fining the companies who employ these illegals

Why wait? If a company has knowingly hired illegals, then the company needs to be fined and the people that approved the illegal hires need to be sent to jail. This isn't a consensual crime like drug use or gay sex. The illegals are literally stealing from every single person that pays taxes, is unemployed, or is waiting to legally immigrate into the country.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6320608 - 11/30/06 07:02 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Furthermore, do you really think they wouldn't pay into the system if they had the choice?

You just don't seem to get that they DO have the choice. It requires they apply like everyone else, wait in line like everyone else, then become American citizens, like everyone else.

Why are you so hell-bent on defending people who are butting in line? I don't understand this.

Because, if we let them all become citizens, instead of imposing quotas/restrictions/waiting periods/etc. then they would all start paying taxes NOW. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

Do you seriously think that instantly allowing the entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country to just come here uncontrolled would do anything but cause far more harm than good?

I mean, seriously, take a step back and look at what you're suggesting! :shake:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320615 - 11/30/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There needs to be the ability for the illegals that are currently in the U.S. to apply for citizenship. Give them 12 months to get their paperwork in.

This was already done back in the 90s. Illegals were given amnesty and they took it, butting in front of everyone waiting in the legal immigration line.

Now we have a fresh new batch of illegals. Should we do the amnesty thing again, letting them all butt in line ahead of all those they left back home applying for legal entry?

And what, do it a third time in 10 more years? Give those waiting in line for legal immigration a reason to say 'fuck this waiting shit' and come here illegally knowing they'll eventually get amnesty without waiting in line? Where will it end?

The solution is to kick out the illegals, allow more and faster legal immigration, and tighten the borders.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (11/30/06 07:21 AM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6320784 - 11/30/06 08:58 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think that tightening the border will solve the immigration problem. They would just find other ways to get here.

They have to have the opportunity of being here taken away from them. Make it harder on them to find work once they are here illegally. Mainly by fining the people who hire them. If the government started heavily fining these companies then they will be less likely to hire them in the future. Making it harder for the illegals to find work.

This problem will not go away until the employers of illegal immigrants are punished in some fashion.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6320907 - 11/30/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

They have to have the opportunity of being here taken away from them. Make it harder on them to find work once they are here illegally. Mainly by fining the people who hire them. If the government started heavily fining these companies then they will be less likely to hire them in the future. Making it harder for the illegals to find work.

I don't think this will work. Here's why:

In Miami's Little Havana area, the density of illegals is staggering. They have a tight network of legal family members already living here who will harbor them and find them work under the table. The employers who give them work are all also recent immigrants and their legal co-employees are also recent immigrants. Nobody tells on anybody else.

It's effectively impossible to enforce immigration laws in an environment where the community is almost 100% immigrants who back each other up and cover for each other.

Enforcement works in a place like Iowa where an illegal sticks out like a sore thumb, but in Miami (and LA, and lots of other cities with high concentrations of illegals) enforcing the law isn't practical.

Tightening the border, however, WILL work. If there's an unclimbable fence, no one will get past that. And it will have the added benefit of potentially preventing a terrorist attack originating in Mexico.

How does the saying go? Good fences make good neighbors. That adage is apropos.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #6320922 - 11/30/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think Odiumjunkie raises a valid point. There is no inherent reason why those born in America are more deserving of these benefits than those born in Mexico. I think it should also be said that most of the problems attributed to illegal immigration would be essentially the same if there was a similar increase in population by other means. If we were truly to fair about it, all national borders would be abolished. But we don't want fairness. We want privilege. And illegal immigration does indeed threaten America's privileges.




You sir are an _______.

You can guess at that. I hope you like your country being raped by those who wish to conquer by numbers.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6320933 - 11/30/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I work with about 65 Hispanic people and they ALL have an illegal relative(s) spitting out babies and picking up checks and going to the hospital for free. One who works directly with me has a sister with some major medical problems and has had over $100,000 in medical care but shes an illegal and still the hospital keeps doing more and more for her. Plus the lady gets a check for taking care of her sisters retarded 14yo son.

What's even more fucked up is that there are currently ~50 million hard-working American citizens who can't afford medical insurance. They walk a tightrope every day and risk losing everything they've worked for to a single serious illness.

Meanwhile, illegals bypass their compatriots who've been waiting in line, sometimes for years, to legally immigrate. And once here, they get preferential access to medical services over uninsured Americans plus automatic citizenship and indefinite free medical care if they can manage to pop out one more tick on the human overpopulation counter while in this country.

And all this even as Americans have fewer children themselves for lack of resources to pay for their upbringing.

That sucks.  :thumbdown:




That right there is why America in 100 years will most likely be apart of Mexico. When America is made up of 80% Latinos(and don't say it will never happen, current trends dictate it's a matter of when, not if) who do you think they will vote for, what will be the policies of these people put into power.

Call me an alarmist, what ever you like, but the fact is, if things keep on going the way they are, it's simply a matter of when.

Unless of course, your government gets off their asses and does something.


To the people arguing for illegal immigration, and/or unlimited legal immigration. What do you think would happen if you took 500 million Indian, or Chinease....they are just looking for a better life after all.

You have to draw a line at some point and ask "what is in MY best interest". Yeah, it sounds horrilbe, but the world is a pretty horrible place sometimes.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

Edited by Hank, FTW (11/30/06 10:05 AM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6321069 - 11/30/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Building a fence is not going to stop them from coming here. Tunnels can be built and they can be smuggled into the US.

It will take a combination of government fines for hiring illegals and a different border strategdy.


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Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6321882 - 11/30/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You just don't seem to get that they DO have the choice. It requires they apply like everyone else, wait in line like everyone else, then become American citizens, like everyone else.

Why are you so hell-bent on defending people who are butting in line? I don't understand this.



Do you know how long the current line is for many parts of the world?

Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?

Furthermore, the US has a historically low unemployment rate. The illegals aren't actually taking any jobs. There are many posts in this thread that make this claim, but so long as the unemployment rate is at 4% (compare that to 8% or even 10% during the 1980s and early 1990s) there are simply enough jobs to go around.

Personally, I want our economy to benefit from the skill and output of these immigrants, and I think we could benefit a lot more than we currently are if we laxed immigration laws.

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you seriously think that instantly allowing the entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country to just come here uncontrolled would do anything but cause far more harm than good?

I mean, seriously, take a step back and look at what you're suggesting!



I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws, you can see the relevant document here:
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/i-2.5/

You will notice no quotas or mandatory waiting periods for basic entry and temporary or permanent residency. And yet Canada hasn't been flooded with the "entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country"

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Brainiac]
    #6323013 - 11/30/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i have the freckle gene,neanderthal is my great great great something
you owe me compensation for killing my ancestors,i wont accept blankets btw :stoned:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
    #6323105 - 11/30/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I dont think the idea of americans not deserving of the benefits of their citizenship really means anything.  There are so many attributes people are born with that can help or hurt.  From having a literal birth defect, to being born in a time of famine, or under a shittie political system.  Somebody gets born near a productive fishery, somebody gets born in a barren desert.

Americans give out lots of citizenship.  Its obvious we cant take everyone, and everyone doesnt want to come here.  But alot do, and we cant take all of them.  As unfortunate as it is that some people arnt born americans ( :smile: ) it just happens.

That said, mexicans get a higher percentage of citizenship than any other nation.  Thats not fair.  To be fair we should grant an equal proportional amount of citizenship to people all around the globe.  Plus we maximize our multi-culturalism by diversifying the immigrants.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6323337 - 12/01/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?


The population of the US is already 300 million and rising. Do you really want hundreds of millions more people there?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6323625 - 12/01/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?

If you read my posts so far in this thread, you'll see that I'm in favor of speeding up the immigration process, but you seem to be suggesting opening the borders in a free-for-all. That would harm everyone in the long run, US Citizens and immigrants alike. It's not sustainable to just let anyone in any time they want, and I can't believe you think otherwise.  :confused:

Furthermore, the US has a historically low unemployment rate. The illegals aren't actually taking any jobs.

But there are SOME unemployed Americans, and the rest are more and more being employed in low-paying service jobs for which they compete directly with immigrants.

I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws

Canada doesn't share a border with a dirt poor country, and it has no proximity to poor areas in the Caribbean. If we allow unrestricted immigration, there would be a stampede across the Mexican border and a flotilla of poor people from Cuba, Haiti, and the other poor islands south of us.

That's an unsustainable policy that would harm everyone more than help.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6323832 - 12/01/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws, you can see the relevant document here:
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/i-2.5/


Alright, I took your advice and read the relevant regulations.

You will notice no quotas or mandatory waiting periods for basic entry and temporary or permanent residency.

Although they don't have quotas or waiting periods, they DO have strict restrictions on WHO can come into the country. In summary, there are three types of Canadian immigration applicant:

1. Economic Class - You fall in this class if you have a work skill like an engineer or doctor, or if you are a business person, meaning you own or are closely associated with a Canadian business.

2. Family Class - You have a close relative who is a Canadian citizen and who will sponsor you.

3. Refugee Class - You are fleeing political (NOT economic) persecution at home and have no other place to go.

You must fall into one of these three classes to be admitted into the country as a resident. Clearly, the majority of Mexicans coming to the US fall into none of these three categories because almost all of them are just dirt poor people looking for a better life. They're ECONOMIC refugees and they don't qualify.

If Canada shared a border with Mexico, their regulations would prevent almost all immigration and so is far more restrictive than US immigration law currently.

Check it out for yourself here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/faq/immigrating-1.html


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6323864 - 12/01/06 09:59 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
You just don't seem to get that they DO have the choice. It requires they apply like everyone else, wait in line like everyone else, then become American citizens, like everyone else.

Why are you so hell-bent on defending people who are butting in line? I don't understand this.



Do you know how long the current line is for many parts of the world?

Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?

Could that have something to do with being over run with illegals?

Furthermore, the US has a historically low unemployment rate. The illegals aren't actually taking any jobs. There are many posts in this thread that make this claim, but so long as the unemployment rate is at 4% (compare that to 8% or even 10% during the 1980s and early 1990s) there are simply enough jobs to go around.

No, they are driving wages down, and contributing to the elimination of the middle class.

Personally, I want our economy to benefit from the skill and output of these immigrants, and I think we could benefit a lot more than we currently are if we laxed immigration laws.

What is your agenda, why do you push for something that is so obviously effecting your country negatively?

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you seriously think that instantly allowing the entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country to just come here uncontrolled would do anything but cause far more harm than good?

I mean, seriously, take a step back and look at what you're suggesting!



I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws, you can see the relevant document here:
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/i-2.5/

You will notice no quotas or mandatory waiting periods for basic entry and temporary or permanent residency. And yet Canada hasn't been flooded with the "entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country"




First of all, Canada does not let anyone in. We also would not have the jobs to support them. Last but most least, we do not share a border with a developing nation.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6324307 - 12/01/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

My good friend is an illegal immigrant here in the US, and due to new laws passed he now has to pay out of state tuition. His asshole parents wont pay so he thinking about going to Canada, but they wont take him. Hes a fairly smart guy, a physics major, Im not sure why Canada wont take him. Hes not rich enough I suppose.

Side note: His native Ireland wont let him pay instate tuition either! He is a man without a country.

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Offlinebigtee212
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: DieCommie]
    #6324329 - 12/01/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

im not worried about them stealing jobs, but for a country to run correctly we need to be able to at least make sure we can account for who is coming in, as in not mexican prisoners...
it needs to be organized is what im saying, i have nothing against anything else aobut it, but if there is not a structered system america could not run like it does. maybe people in their day to day life can just do whatever they want and it works fine, but a government and country cant function like that, at least not an advanced one

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Posts: 29,258
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: bigtee212]
    #6324381 - 12/01/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

About the jobs issue...

I have seen native Americans (people born here) struggle to compete with Mexicans. At the restaurant I worked as a server, there was an anglo american who was a cook and unfortunately wanst very smart. Not retarded, just not quick maybe like forrest gump, but real nice guy and a hard worker. He had a wife and a child to support. But he just couldn't get along with the Mexican cook staff. They refused to speak or even try english. The kitchen manager would give him the shittiest job. They would blast their music and he could never play his, not even for a short time. The other cooks would mock him constantly. Eventually he got fired, and I dont think he deserved it.

But that was the exception. I have spent over 7 years supporting myself with tips jobs at the restaurant. That was the only time I seen a native American working as a cook.

Of course as a user, I have lots of friends who are addicts, felons, and mal-adjusted characters. They need jobs too, and being a cook at a restaurant is a perfect job for them.


I watch Colbert every night, and the other night he said this... A chicken processing plant got all its illegals kicked out and had to shut down. As you know when he says things its usually sarcastic mocking others by making ridiculous statements. Well, he says mockingly ' Now we can have our homeless and felons process our chicken! ', like thats a bad thing. Its good to kick out the illegals and give their jobs to felons and the homeless. Felons and homeless need jobs too, jobs help keep them from being felons and homeless.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6326842 - 12/02/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I spoke too quickly about the Canada thing, sorry, I live in an environment where most of my friends and neighbors are from East-Asia, and I'm frequently blown away by how few of them are are citizens, when all are University Educated. Anyway, a common trick they use to get citizenship faster is to go to Canada first, and because they all have University Degrees, getting citizenship is no problem. Then they immigrate to America as a Canadian (rather than Chinese, Japanese, or South Korean) citizen to get around quotas.

Quote:

Diploid said:
It's not sustainable to just let anyone in any time they want, and I can't believe you think otherwise.



I think otherwise because the relevant academic research suggests otherwise.

Since you already looked up one thing I suggested, maybe you'll look up another:
http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/253.pdf

It's an academic paper by Prof. David Card at Princeton on the effects of the Mariel Boat Lift on Miami's labor market. (there are also some summaries floating around online if you don't want to read the whole thing)

For those of you who aren't familiar, facing a desperate economic situation in Cuba during 1980, Castro decided to allow everyone who wanted to leave Cuba leave during a one-time-only shot. This resulted in approximately 125,000 people who had litterally nothing arriving in Miami at about the same time.

Anyway, Card looked at the effect on the labor market, and he found that the result was basically non-existant. The sudden massive surge in unskilled workers allowed companies that were going to eliminate jobs in favor of automation instead switch to cheaper, more labor intensive processes. This created more jobs without driving-down labor wages (money that would have been spent on automation went to wages instead) and the total output of Miami increased.

So, if Miami alone could handle a sudden increase of that magnitude without wages collapsing and unemployment going through the roof, I really don't see any merit to the "Immigrants make us all poor" argument. I'm forced to conclude, based upon the Miami experience, that letting people in will actually result in increased output and we'll all be richer instead of poorer.

Edit: In response to the comments by Hank and others, I would really like to challenge the posters in this thread to provide evidence to counter mine, specifically numbers showing that large numbers of immigrants actually have the negative impacts that have been claimed.

Edited by Economist (12/02/06 10:37 AM)

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InvisibleConservationist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #6326967 - 12/02/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
I am annoyed at how some people characterize everybody who is against illegal immigrants as being a racist or a xenophone.




It's just a cheap tactic because they can't out-argue you. The accusation "racist" is so old it's fossil, but most people aren't yet aware of that.

I'm against immigration because multiculturalism doesn't work. It never has in history, and it doesn't currently work in America. The solution is ethnic separation, and I'm certain it will take the rest of them another 20+ years to see that.

If we do it peacefully, we can avoid the tedium of violent white and black nationalist revolutions. And if we're too blind to see that, we get what we deserve.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Conservationist]
    #6327014 - 12/02/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Conservationist said:
I'm against immigration because multiculturalism doesn't work. It never has in history, and it doesn't currently work in America. The solution is ethnic separation, and I'm certain it will take the rest of them another 20+ years to see that.



Uh...

I'm pretty sure the US has lower unemployment and higher economic growth than the European Union, and we're quite a bit more multicultural than they are. (The Bureau of Labor Statistics and the European Central Bank also tend to agree with this if you want to check out their websites)

Do you define "doesn't work" as "does better economically"?

Even when you look at instances like crime or education, the US is still ahead of more homogenous counter-parts.

For example, compare the rate of violent crime in the US to that in the far more homogenous countries of South America like Brazil, Argentina, or god help you, Colombia.

And while our public schools may not do so well compared to their OECD counterparts, the OECD has concluded that American Universities are infact better than their foreign counter parts (source: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/35341210.pdf ), hence why corporate America does so well sitting attop a supposedly "inferior" system.

So, yeah, given that the US does better in basically every single category than more homogenous societies, can you please explain how "multiculturalism doesn't work"?

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Conservationist]
    #6327169 - 12/02/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Conservationist said:
It's just a cheap tactic because they can't out-argue you. The accusation "racist" is so old it's fossil, but most people aren't yet aware of that.

I'm against immigration because multiculturalism doesn't work. It never has in history, and it doesn't currently work in America. The solution is ethnic separation, and I'm certain it will take the rest of them another 20+ years to see that.

If we do it peacefully, we can avoid the tedium of violent white and black nationalist revolutions. And if we're too blind to see that, we get what we deserve.




Dude......you are so far away from what Randal was trying to say that I'm not sure where to begin.

He isn't against immigration.
He is against illegal immigrants who are here sponging off our society.

If you truly believe that immigration is a downfall for America then you are one of the most delusional people I have talked to today

This country is based on immigration
Virtually every person born in America is a mutt. A mixture of several different nationalities and ethnic backgrounds.
There is no true American lineage.
Americans are a vast cornucopia of races, nationalities and ethnic heritages.

To say that immigration is a hindrance to America.....is ignorance pure and simple.
Immigration and multi-cultural-ism is our primary strength


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Illegal Immigration *DELETED* [Re: niteowl]
    #6327322 - 12/02/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by DieCommie

Reason for deletion: .


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: DieCommie]
    #6327415 - 12/02/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: DieCommie]
    #6327479 - 12/02/06 02:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

:congrats:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6327852 - 12/02/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It's an academic paper by Prof. David Card at Princeton on the effects of the Mariel Boat Lift on Miami's labor market.

Miami is not representative of the US in general.

I was born in Miami and lived through the Mariel boat-lift. Miami already had a dense population of Latinos before Mariel. And the people who came to Miami at that time all had relatives here who supported them, sometimes for years, until they became documented, found jobs and settled down. They were equivalent to 'Family' class in Canada. Without support from their families, those people would all have been wards of the state, dragging down the state economy.

Put those same Cubans in Boise instead of Miami, without rooted families to support them, and the academic papers would show a different story.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6328345 - 12/02/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Miami is not representative of the US in general.



Okay, then let's see some better data.

Quote:

Diploid said:
Put those same Cubans in Boise instead of Miami, without rooted families to support them, and you'll the academic papers would all show a different story.



Really, can you provide some examples?

The fact of the matter is that the US immigration policy has done nothing but liberalize since the start of the 20th century, and it has never resulted in an unmanageable flow of immigrants. Furthermore, the surge in illegals happened during the last 20 years or so, the same period which also gave rise to the longest period of low inflation and the lowest ever recorded unemployment rates in the history of America.

I'm hearing a lot of arguments from your end, but I'm not seeing a lot of facts to back them up.

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6328618 - 12/02/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

quiver said:
don't you claim most of the taxes you pay in earnings back anyway?




If i worked a lot of overtime and ended up paying extra money into the system, then I will be able to get some of that money back at the end of the year.

If I didn't pay enough taxes.....then I will have to pay the government money at the end of the year.




here it used to be if you eaned a dollar you payed 25 cent tax on it and you got it back when you lodged your tax returns every year

nows its all confusing with red tape and crap for tax breaks for the rich and no tax for the poor if you earn under a certain amount like 130 bucks a week or something

welfare pays more

i am on disability and i am allowed to work if i was able too and can earn no more than sixty dollars a week and if i did my rent would double

i dont because id rather have the money than my fucking landlord :thumbdown:

i used to pay 20 bucks tax out of my pension everyweek and get it back but dont anymore.
i could claim for an extra 200 a week for my wife as a carers pension but dont and i still havent applied for a disability sticker for using the door stop parking facilites everywhere but im going too,fuck them

when i worked we had to becareful with overtime,if you worked to much only your boss got rich after tax

once we worked an all day sunday because we had a crane out for hire on the job and even though it was triple pay i eanred fucking 30 dollars after tax,the boss gave us fucking turkeys and prawns for christmas as a ty for that rippoff so atleast he understood and helped abit but damn i wa spissed at the government and myself for being a blue collar worker


--------------------

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6329701 - 12/03/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Really, can you provide some examples?

Sure, lemme just look up the details of the last Cuba to Boise boat-lift.  :tongue:

I'm hearing a lot of arguments from your end, but I'm not seeing a lot of facts to back them up.

You're not seeing the data because no country is stupid enough to open its borders for free access to anyone. A study isn't necessary to know what's common sense.

According to your report, Miami was already more than 35% immigrants when Mariel happened, allowing the new immigrants to be absorbed, mainly by family already here. That puts most of the Mariel immigrants in the equivalent of Canada's 'Family' status. It's this familial support that minimizes the impact on the area economy.

Canadians, who have some common sense, would have allowed most of the Mariel immigrants in on a promise from their families to support them. The rest without family in Canada would have been denied entry. More Canadian common sense there. This, in fact, happened in Miami where Mariel immigrants were kept at the Krome Detention Center just west of Miami until their families came to get them.

Your report is not representative of what would happen someplace where the immigrant population is not already a 35% minority. Miami is unique and the skewed economic results represents that.

Instead of picking your data, why don't you take a broader look at the academic studies, not just the ones that back your point. An intellectually honest search will find plenty of support for the idea that, while controlled immigration is a good thing, illegal / uncontrolled immigration is and has been bad for our economy overall.

But since you're hung up on studies, here's one from the Center for Immigration Studies, an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Summary: This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Uncontrolled free immigration of poor people with no job skills, no job, no money, and no place to live is a disaster. This is common sense and most people don't need a study to know this.

But whatever. Believe what you will. I'm just glad your idea of free, open borders will never be tested.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
    #6330594 - 12/03/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Instead of picking your data, why don't you take a broader look at the academic studies, not just the ones that back your point. An intellectually honest search will find plenty of support for the idea that, while controlled immigration is a good thing, illegal / uncontrolled immigration is and has been bad for our economy overall.



Okay, let's do an "intellectually honest search" and see what we find:

Here'a a paper that was actually peer reviewed, written by two professors at Chapman University:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584#PaperDownload
I think the most relevant finding is summarized here:
"The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services."

Then we have this paper, a collaboration between professors at UC San Diego, Dartmouth, UMich, and the IMF:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=296108#PaperDownload
Their relevant conclusions include:
"Despite the geographic concentration of recent immigrants, wages have not fallen perceptibly in the gateway communities in which immigrants settle.
...
Despite immigrant use of public assistance, the net fiscal transfer from natives to immigrants appears to be very small at the national level, though it is higher in a few specific states that have both generous welfare benefits and large immigrant populations."

It's also pretty easy to find literature stating that illegal immigrants aren't actually a drain on the US economy, for example this one:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=84UQuGMDN0YC&oi

Quote:

Diploid said:
But since you're hung up on studies, here's one from the Center for Immigration Studies, an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization



Ah yes, the good old CIS.

Hey, did you know that the CIS was set up by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a known anti-immigration group?

You can read about it here: http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/tilove042406.html

Quote:

Diploid said:
Uncontrolled free immigration of poor people with no job skills, no job, no money, and no place to live is a disaster. This is common sense and most people don't need a study to know this.



Science and statistics exist specifically because so much of what was once called "common sense" has been proven time and time again to be completely wrong.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6332065 - 12/04/06 03:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

He isn't against immigration.
He is against illegal immigrants who are here sponging off our society.




This brings up a good point? When did "illegal aliens" turn into "illegal immigrants"? In my book, an immigrant is legal by definition while an alien is illegal by definition. It is a lot smaller of a step from illegal immigrant to legal immigrant than it is from illegal alien to legal immigrant.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6333139 - 12/04/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I guess you havent heard the newest one.

"undocumented citizen"

:puke:

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6333148 - 12/04/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I heard some lady on Lou Dobbs say something along the lines of, "Stop calling them illegal aliens, they're not from another planet or something. They're human beings." I literally laughed for about ten minutes.

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6333580 - 12/04/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I saw that, that woman could not make any decent arguments, so she was spouting nonsense. They always scream racist when they are out of arguments.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6333837 - 12/04/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

What do we do about all of the Diseases that they carry into the USA.The ones that where gone ,that are comeing back now.


--------------------
:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:

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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Brainiac]
    #6333843 - 12/04/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Immigration and Disease: It's Enough to Make You Sick
Written by Robert Klein Engler
Friday, November 21, 2003


Uncontrolled and illegal immigration to the United States causes many problems for the nation. Just the tax revenues spent on welfare programs, education, health care, and housing for illegal immigrants is enough to make one question our immigration policies. Now, we can add another problem and cost associated with illegal immigration: illegal immigrants can make you sick.

According to an article at newsobserver.com and other news sources, a deadly Pennsylvania hepatitis outbreak has spread panic among many residents of the area. ''More than 500 people got sick and three have died from this hepatitis outbreak.'' Charles Sheehan, writing for the Associated Press, claims that ''The nation's biggest known outbreak of hepatitis A is causing such a panic that people are lining up by the thousands for antibody shots and no longer eating out.''

Health investigators are looking into whether contaminated produce--perhaps scallions from Mexico--may have caused the outbreak at the Chi Chi's restaurant in the Beaver Valley Mall, about 25 miles northwest of Pittsburgh. ''We're very concerned. It's very serious and we've sent a team of people out there to assist,'' said CDC spokesman David Daigle.

According to yet another article on station WPIX Pittsburgh's web site, ''In light of the hepatitis A outbreak from a Center Township restaurant, Chi-Chi's has pulled green onions from its menu nationwide as a precaution. As far as the investigation into the Chi-Chi's outbreak, the virus has been identified as the 'Mexican Strain.' '' Health officials reported, ''Workers may have contaminated food by failure to follow basic hygiene in cleaning hands after using the bathroom.''

The U. S. is not alone in its fight against illegal immigration and disease. Illegal Chinese immigrants to Europe are bringing to that continent malaria. Even Thailand has problems with diseases brought in with immigrants from Burma. The biological clock is ticking and a world health crisis is looming. Because the U. S. suffers more immigration than any country in the world, our health problems are growing faster. Certainly, the potential for biological disaster has come to the notice of terrorists and Al Qaeda.

Although the out break of Hepatitis A in Pennsylvania is the largest in U. S. history, it is just the tip of the iceberg in so far as disease and immigration is concerned. Frosty Wooldridge in his many articles reports that, ''Thousands carry head lice, leprosy, tuberculosis, and hepatitis A, B, and C into the U. S. Tuberculosis, five years ago, was almost nonexistent in the USA. A school in Sebewaing, Michigan, reported 30 children and four teachers had tested positive for tuberculosis infections.''

Wooldridge goes on to add, ''In the past four years, 16,000 cases of multi drug resistant (MDR) TB, which was formerly endemic ONLY to Mexico, crossed over the borders inside the bodies of illegal aliens. These adults and their children have spread out across the country to work in fast foods and harvesting. Another outbreak occurred in Austin, Minnesota, where eight police officers tested positive for tuberculosis.'' A similar outbreak reportedly occurred in Portland, Maine where 28 tested positive for tuberculosis.

And the list gets even longer: ''Leprosy totaled 900 cases in the USA in the past 40 years. In the past three years, according to a report from the New York Times in February, 2003, leprosy has infected over 7,000 people in the United States. It was brought in by illegal immigrants from India, Brazil, Mexico, and the Caribbean. Leprosy spreads by infected illegal aliens working in fast food, dish washing and hotels."

Then there is Chagas Disease. This disease ''is brought directly from Mexico and Latin America where it has infected over 18,000,000 people. One can contract it by eating uncooked food contaminated with infected feces of the Vinchuca Bug. It crosses over the border in the bodies of an average of 2,200 illegal aliens daily.''

Disease transmission by immigration is not limited to just the states that border Mexico. As far north as Kentucky and Illinois, problems of disease and immigrants are to be found. A Kentucky state legislator blamed illegal Hispanic immigrants for spreading disease in Kentucky and draining the shelves of local food charities. Illegal immigrants whom Kentucky State Representative Fred Nesler described as ''mostly your Mexicans'' have caused problems in his Western Kentucky district. He said, ''Whenever they come into a community, those people bring quite a bit of disease with them.''

In northern Virginia, state health authorities announced that ''tuberculosis continues to rise'' and that ''immigration is fueling the spread.'' According to the Washington Post, this strain of TB is the drug resistant strain (Washington Post, March 18, 2002). The state Health Department released figures showing an increase of nearly 5 percent in TB cases in the state between 2000 and 2001, and 57 percent of the increase occurred in northern Virginia itself.

As the Washington Post explained, ''Health officials say the rise of TB ... is largely a consequence of the migration of people from parts of the world where the disease is common. It is thought that two-thirds of the cases of TB brought into the United States originated in just three countries: Mexico, the Philippines, and Vietnam.''

A study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform in the St. Louis Business Journal (August 20, 2003) reports that Missouri spends about $21.4 million a year and Illinois spends $484 million a year to educate school-aged illegal immigrants. The report goes on to state that, ''The money spent in Illinois is enough to supply healthcare to every person under the poverty line for two years or to supply financial aid to the nearly 34,000 college students denied it.''' Clearly, illegal immigration is lowering the standard of living of all American citizens.

Writing in the National Review, James R. Edwards cites the dramatic increase in diseases immigrants bring to the United States. He states, ''TB is especially prevalent in Mexicans....Mexican immigrants have an infection rate of 35.5 cases per 100,000, far above the native-born rate.'' Edwards then goes on to ask, ''Does America have the resolve to safeguard public health first, even at the risk of being politically incorrect? Do American taxpayers willingly accept the additional burden of the costs mass immigration places on the nation's healthcare system?''

The answer to Edwards' question is, ''No.'' It is obvious there is no desire or resolve to safeguard public health in either political party. Nor do the politicians want to do anything about illegal immigration, especially illegal immigration from Mexico. What is lacking here is a long term vision of what is good for the U. S. Instead, everyone is looking at short term political or economic gains.

A solution to the problems of illegal immigration probably will hurt some people in the short run. That is the pain that precedes a cure. Some families may be broken up and some decent, hardworking people sent back to a country that has no jobs for them. Nevertheless, in the long run, policies that deport illegal immigrants will benefit the U. S. These policies may even force Mexico, among other nations, to get their house in order. But because there is short term pain for a long term benefit, politicians will stay away from doing anything to solve the immigration mess and its attending public health problems. The problem of illegal immigration and disease will just grow worse. It's enough to make you sick!


Robert Klein Engler lives in Chicago, and teaches at Roosevelt University. His book, A WINTER OF WORDS, about the ethnic cleansing at Daley College, is available from amazon.com.


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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Brainiac]
    #6334607 - 12/04/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

we were at the chemist/drugstore yesterday picking up some worming pills for our fams and the chemist was telling us that we have tuberculosis again,she was saying we were rid of the disease since the 40's but not now and thats from LEGAL immigration let alone illegal aliens

its the same with personal hygiene and illness

we are forever buying headlice lotion and one year,one of my kids caught a skin virus call foot and mouth from their school.
our chemist said shes heard of a few people getting that too

then she told us that one of the local school principles was so fed up with headlice at his school he bought a shitload of headlice lotion out of his own pocket and did the whole school himself

forget them taking jobs for the moment,its the diseases theyre bringing in i'm worried about,these people use school as childcare so they can operate their little shops while their kids are sick,'screw their kids' must be their mantra

then theres the five thousand bodybags our government has ordered for the impending bird flu outbreak we're just waiting to get...


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6335030 - 12/05/06 12:46 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So is it your argument that the US should just open its borders and let any person come to this country?

Are you saying that the US would be better off if your "policy" of unlimited illegal immigrants were enacted?


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6335050 - 12/05/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
So is it your argument that the US should just open its borders and let any person come to this country?

Are you saying that the US would be better off if your "policy" of unlimited illegal immigrants were enacted?



Well, I can't say for certain until such time as the policy is enacted, but yes.

From all the well-researched peer-reviewed evidence available, it seems that an unflux of immigrants helps the economy and doesn't actually reduce employment or wages. The fact that wages and employment as a % of the workforce have both grown from 2001 to 2006, the same period where illegal immigration increased, also provides evidence in support of this viewpoint.

I understand how seductive the reasoning behind policies to limit immigration is, but the numbers just don't support it.

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6335252 - 12/05/06 02:18 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

what youre saying is as long as immigrants enter our countries regardless of whether they work or collect welfare,the bottom line is the rich that own everything will always have someone else with a dollar they can take,they need it

screw us
i know we need immigration to a point of skilled workers but when they start bringing their great grandmothers here because theyre 'lonely' the only people who win is the government and multinational companies


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Edited by quiver (12/05/06 02:33 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
    #6335303 - 12/05/06 03:07 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> i know we need immigration to a point of skilled workers but when they start bringing their great grandmothers

I would claim the opposite. The harm comes when people become "illegal/legal guest workers" rather than immigrants. Immigration implies acceptance of a new country as home. As such, true immigrants (including their families) become part of the system rather than a parasite feeding from the system.

> I understand how seductive the reasoning behind policies to limit immigration is, but the numbers just don't support it.

I have no problem with immigration, but I have a huge problem with illegal aliens. The illegal aliens are parasites that take from everybody else and return nothing in exchange. (They use hospitals, schools, roads, welfare for free, pay no taxes what-so-ever, and then send all the cash they make under the table back to their own country, thus rubbing salt in the wound.) To me, these are the people that have no desire to build a new home, they simply want the benefits of a job. I am more than willing to help an immigrant become my neighbor, but I will fight to my last breath to stop the illegal aliens that simply want to take from all of us to better their life. I have no sympathy for greed.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6335436 - 12/05/06 05:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

:congrats:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6335460 - 12/05/06 06:01 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

In this fantasy world of yours.

Would a citizen of the US be able to "work a deal" with his employer for "cash under the table" and aoid paying any form of federal or state taxes. The employer therfore gets to drop any insurance on me. Everyone saving money in the long run and screwing our government in the process??????

:strokebeard:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6335670 - 12/05/06 08:39 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> Would a citizen of the US be able to "work a deal" with his employer for "cash under the table"

I hate to speak for Economist, but I assume his point is that by making it legal for everybody without limits to work (regardless of where they are from), then there would be no more "under the table" deals, thus the tax base would increase, etc, etc...


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Seuss]
    #6335877 - 12/05/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I am more than willing to help an immigrant become my neighbor, but I will fight to my last breath to stop the illegal aliens that simply want to take from all of us to better their life. I have no sympathy for greed.



I don't disagree with you, but this sounds to me like a problem of welfare reform, and not a problem of immigration. In one of the studies I linked to on the previous page of this thread it explicitly states that citizens who don't seek employment are a much larger drain on our welfare and medicare rolls than illegal aliens.

I don't think we should keep people out on the off chance that they're showing up to take government benefits without paying into the system. (and, again, one of the studies I linked on the previous page states that this is indeed an off chance, the vast majority of immigrants want to build a life here)

I do think we should reform the welfare system such that anyone, regardless of where they are born, cannot take out of the system if they don't ever plan to pay back into it.

Also,

Seuss, you can speak for me whenever you want, your comments are upstanding, plus you were spot on with what I would have said. +5 shrooms for you (not that you need more ratings!)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6335953 - 12/05/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

In one of the studies I linked to on the previous page of this thread it explicitly states that citizens who don't seek employment are a much larger drain on our welfare and medicare rolls than illegal aliens.




Again, I don't mind taking care of my own problems (the citizens that don't seek employment), but I don't see why I have to take care of other countries problems (illegal aliens) as well. I don't mind legal immigration, it is illegal aliens that I have a problem with. If immigrtion quotas were to go away, so would my complaints about illegal aliens.

Quote:

but this sounds to me like a problem of welfare reform




Probably a bit of both. Welfare is another issue I have problems with, but I don't want to derail this thread.


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6339865 - 12/06/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
So is it your argument that the US should just open its borders and let any person come to this country?

Are you saying that the US would be better off if your "policy" of unlimited illegal immigrants were enacted?



Well, I can't say for certain until such time as the policy is enacted, but yes.

From all the well-researched peer-reviewed evidence available, it seems that an unflux of immigrants helps the economy and doesn't actually reduce employment or wages. The fact that wages and employment as a % of the workforce have both grown from 2001 to 2006, the same period where illegal immigration increased, also provides evidence in support of this viewpoint.

I understand how seductive the reasoning behind policies to limit immigration is, but the numbers just don't support it.




Yeah, have 1 billion people come to America, that would be good for your country.

I am concerned about people with the views you have, because if things go your way, it's only a matter of time before my country is raped, after yours falls.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6339880 - 12/06/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Hank, FTW said:
I am concerned about people with the views you have, because if things go your way, it's only a matter of time before my country is raped, after yours falls.



That's funny, because I'm concerned about people who don't base their views on actual research.

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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6339940 - 12/06/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Come on, if there was unlimited immigration, and people could just enter the country and not have to leave, what do you think would happen? I would be willing to bet everything I have that your population would double with in a year.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6339953 - 12/06/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sure doing so would work wonders for this country's stability. :smirk:


--------------------
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6339971 - 12/06/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Even if every single man, woman, and child in the nation of Mexico up and moved to the US, that would result in a 50% increase in the population, not a doubling.

It's also highly unlikely.

Even if they took the rest of Central America with them, that's still only about 200 million people compared to the 300 million living in the US.

The population of South America is around 370 million, so in order for the population of the US to double within 1 year, more than 1 out of ever 2 people living in South and Central America would have to move to the United States. This clearly isn't going to happen.

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6339980 - 12/06/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Heh, that was sweet. :cool:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6340018 - 12/06/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I was unaware that immigrants only came from central America and South America. What about China, India, the Mid East, Eastern Europe, Africa and every other place on the planet that is poor? I am sure there would be many "charity" groups out there willing to pay their fare.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

Edited by Hank, FTW (12/06/06 10:28 AM)

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6345179 - 12/07/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Go to the department of homeland security's website and look at the illegal immigration figures from China and India (people get antsy when I post links to the Homeland Security website on this board, can't say I blame them), the totals for both nations are just above 200,000 people.

Meaning that the legal immigration rate, assuming we let everyone in, would have to balloon to over 1000x the current illegal rate for the US population to double due to immigration from either of those nations.

As for Eastern Europe, the same math as South America applies, there are a sum total of fewer than 100 million people living in Eastern Europe, so almost 1 out of every two people living in Eastern Europe and Latin America (central and south) COMBINED would have to move to the US in order to double the population.

I'm sorry, but the likelihood of the US population doubling in 1 year due to unlimited immigration seems INCREDIBLY small given the total population of regions with likely high immigration rates (Latin America, Eastern Europe) and the low immigration rates from countries that could overwhelm the US (India, China).

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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
    #6347566 - 12/08/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The reason the immigration rates are low from those countries could be due to the fact that they ARE NOT LET IN!


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6348527 - 12/08/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Dude, no offense, but did you even read my post? Those are the numbers of illegal immigrants from China and India, not the number allowed in under the current quota system...

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InvisibleConservationist
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: DieCommie]
    #6349412 - 12/08/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

All I'm doing is pointing out that multiculturalism and immigration-based societies do not work.

That's historical fact.

If that upsets you, move to another universe where it isn't true. In the meantime, I prefer reality.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Conservationist]
    #6349877 - 12/09/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Conservationist said:
All I'm doing is pointing out that multiculturalism and immigration-based societies do not work.




Have you ever been to the U.S.? I don't see how you can make this statement, seeing the success that the U.S. has had with multiculturalism, and immigration.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6350557 - 12/09/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The success of the US is far more a result of assimilation, which was the norm for immigrants until rather recently. There was no requirement that notices be printed in any language other than English and the expectation was that immigrants were to embrace America and leave their old ways behind. Pretty much all that remained were cuisine and a few religious festivals. This is not the case for the current influx of Hispanics.

I'm not attempting to make any value judgements here, that's for another post. I'm merely trying to point out that the success of the US is not an example of the positive effects of multi-culturalism as it was not practiced here until recently, having it's roots in the Civil Rights movement of the 60s.


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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6350604 - 12/09/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Many of the large cities have distinct ethnic areas. Making America one of the few nations that embrace different cultures rather than try to remove their ethnic "flavor" from our country.

Every State you visit in America has its own sub-culture. The "American culture" is more and more becoming a "Capitalistic culture" as more and more countries embrace a free market and a global economy.

People who come to America (or any nation) "under the radar" so to speak. Are not contributing to our nation, they are sponging off of it. It is more beneficial (for America) for these people to become legal citizens of our country rather than steal our wealth and send it back to their home countries.

Should we give them temporary legal status through a workers permit......sure. At least that way they will still pay state and federal income tax like the rest of us.

The benefit to an employer in hiring illegal aliens is that they don't have to pay any kind of tax or insurance on them. An immigrant with a workers permit will have to give the government the name of the person/company they are working for.......therefore taking away the employers benefit of hiring an illegal.

May as well hire a local if your gonna have to pay tax on them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #6350657 - 12/09/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I grew up in NYC in the 60s. Although there were certainly ethnic neighborhoods they existed as subsets within the greater notion of "America" and the people in them were expected to adapt to the "American Way of LIfe" not import their culture to impose on America and force other Americans to adapt to them. That is the multiculturalist position, that Americans need to accept the foibles of and accomodate the immigrants. I just read recently about this Saudi asshole in Colorado who kept a woman prisoner and beat her and used her as a sex slave and withheld her pay and passport. He whined at his sentencing that those were the customs of his country, as if we should give a fuck. We have customs too. One of them is that if you think you're going to do that shit here you will be "customarily" incarcerated for many years.


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OfflinePsilly Billy
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14064303 - 03/04/11 01:19 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I grew up in NYC in the 60s.  Although there were certainly ethnic neighborhoods they existed as subsets within the greater notion of "America" and the people in them were expected to adapt to the "American Way of LIfe"  not import their culture to impose on America and force other Americans to adapt to them. 



As opposed to what? Just importing the people, and forcing them to adapt to American "Ways"?

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14064315 - 03/04/11 01:24 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I grew up in NYC in the 60s.  Although there were certainly ethnic neighborhoods they existed as subsets within the greater notion of "America" and the people in them were expected to adapt to the "American Way of LIfe"  not import their culture to impose on America and force other Americans to adapt to them.  That is the multiculturalist position, that Americans need to accept the foibles of and accomodate the immigrants.  I just read recently about this Saudi asshole in Colorado who kept a woman prisoner and beat her and used her as a sex slave and withheld her pay and passport.  He whined at his sentencing that those were the customs of his country, as if we should give a fuck.  We have customs too.  One of them is that if you think you're going to do that shit here you will be "customarily" incarcerated for many years.




DAMN STRAIGHT!  I couldn't agree more.  You're a smart guy, Zappa.  Don't let all these commies tell you otherwise.

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OfflinePsilly Billy
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
    #14064364 - 03/04/11 01:43 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think Odiumjunkie raises a valid point.  There is no inherent reason why those born in America are more deserving of these benefits than those born in Mexico.




What? How can you honestly say that a person who uses the system but never pays into the system is OK.

No one here ever said that being a citizen of the US was some great reward that should be kept only to Americans. What we are trying to say is........

"Come to our country and become a citizen. We want more tax paying citizens in our country. We don't want free loaders coming here and stealing our social/economic benefits."

Quote:

I think it should also be said that most of the problems attributed to illegal immigration would be essentially the same if there was a similar increase in population by other means.




If Americans have more children and raise our population....then these children will be a part of the system and will always pay into the system.

Illegal immigrants never pay into the system.

Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp.

No one wants to prevent Mexicans from becoming American citizens.

We want them to come here and pay taxes but they can make more money by being here illegally.



Everybody makes more money when there is an illegal workforce to be exploited. The illegals, the employers, the govt, the illegal's home govt, the retail outlets, the landlords, the prison system, everyone.
And it's all carefully orchestrated from the top levels of Government.
Including the myth that illegals are "stealing Tax Dollars". In point of fact, they are propping the economy up if anything.

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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Psilly Billy]
    #14064896 - 03/04/11 07:02 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Psilly Billy said:
Everybody makes more money when there is an illegal workforce to be exploited. The illegals, the employers, the govt, the illegal's home govt, the retail outlets, the landlords, the prison system, everyone.





what about the landscapers and construction workers that are in direct
competition with these illegals and the companies hiring illegals. how
does a residential contractor that hires US citizens or legal immigrants
make more when they have to compete with companies that employ illegals for
labor? how do I as a farmer make more when my competitors can bring a crop to
market under the price that I can because they choose to violate federal law
on hiring illegal aliens while I choose to obey the laws?

seems the only ones really making more are those that violate the laws

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OfflineLord Amok
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14065005 - 03/04/11 07:53 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I grew up in NYC in the 60s.  Although there were certainly ethnic neighborhoods they existed as subsets within the greater notion of "America" and the people in them were expected to adapt to the "American Way of LIfe"  not import their culture to impose on America and force other Americans to adapt to them.  That is the multiculturalist position, that Americans need to accept the foibles of and accomodate the immigrants.  I just read recently about this Saudi asshole in Colorado who kept a woman prisoner and beat her and used her as a sex slave and withheld her pay and passport.  He whined at his sentencing that those were the customs of his country, as if we should give a fuck.  We have customs too.  One of them is that if you think you're going to do that shit here you will be "customarily" incarcerated for many years.




I don't think you understand what multiculturalism is.


--------------------
Viva las Vegas.

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OfflineZenarchist23
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Lord Amok]
    #14065438 - 03/04/11 09:58 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Lord Amok said:
I don't think he understand what multiculturalism is.




+1

Edited by Zenarchist23 (03/04/11 10:00 AM)

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OfflineTheThinker
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Zenarchist23]
    #14065527 - 03/04/11 10:25 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

ni-hi  ga-nv-wo-i  hi-ne-gv  hi-a  ga-wo-ni-s-di  hi-a  a-ni-yv-wi-ya  hi-ne-gv  (ha-wi-(na)di-tlv  hi-ya  ga-do-hi.

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OfflineChelleLaBelle
Wicked Witch of the Midwest
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: TheThinker]
    #14067659 - 03/04/11 06:27 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

TheThinker said:
ni-hi  ga-nv-wo-i  hi-ne-gv  hi-a  ga-wo-ni-s-di  hi-a  a-ni-yv-wi-ya  hi-ne-gv  (ha-wi-(na)di-tlv  hi-ya  ga-do-hi.





u-wo-du-hi  :thumbup:

wa-do o-gi-na-li


--------------------
If this were a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?

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OfflinePsilly Billy
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: ChelleLaBelle]
    #14068179 - 03/04/11 08:30 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Wow. What does that mean?

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OfflineZenarchist23
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Psilly Billy]
    #14068258 - 03/04/11 08:55 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

TheThinker said:
ni-hi  ga-nv-wo-i  hi-ne-gv  hi-a  ga-wo-ni-s-di  hi-a  a-ni-yv-wi-ya  hi-ne-gv  (ha-wi-(na)di-tlv  hi-ya  ga-do-hi.





I'm pretty sure it's Cherokee, but I can only pick out the word for People.

Edited by Zenarchist23 (03/04/11 08:56 PM)

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OfflineChelleLaBelle
Wicked Witch of the Midwest
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Psilly Billy]
    #14068320 - 03/04/11 09:13 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Psilly Billy said:
Wow. What does that mean?




Mine is Thank you, my friend.


--------------------
If this were a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?

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OfflinePsilly Billy
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Zenarchist23]
    #14068370 - 03/04/11 09:22 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

That's so awesome. Lots of little syllables.

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OfflineChelleLaBelle
Wicked Witch of the Midwest
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Psilly Billy]
    #14068465 - 03/04/11 09:43 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Psilly Billy said:
That's so awesome. Lots of little syllables.




yes, yes there are.... :grin:


--------------------
If this were a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?

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OfflineTheThinker
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Psilly Billy]
    #14069922 - 03/05/11 08:09 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Psilly Billy said:
Wow. What does that mean?




You should speak the language the People speak in this land.



I really get tired of English only whiners.

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: TheThinker]
    #14072669 - 03/05/11 08:06 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

If the Good Lord didn't want us to have THIS land, He would have helped THEM.  But He didn't.  He BACKED US.  So they need to STOP CRYING like they've seen a bunch of litter.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14072950 - 03/05/11 09:21 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Can you give any reasonable evidence that there is a God?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073414 - 03/05/11 11:00 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Can you give any reasonable evidence that there is a God?




Oh my Lord, what a shock!  A COMMIE who is an ATHIEST! Consider my mind blown! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go confirm reports that there's a FISH who loves to SWIM.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073427 - 03/05/11 11:03 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

You have a mind? I see no evidence?

You have no evidence of a god and believe in fairy tales.

Gee a FAIRY. What a surprise.:haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073435 - 03/05/11 11:05 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You have a mind? I see no evidence?




Sure.  Need to borrow one?

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073458 - 03/05/11 11:08 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

No evidence just :ass::holyshit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073465 - 03/05/11 11:12 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Here's your evidence.  BECAUSE THEY BIBLE SAYS SO.  Ever heard of it, commie?  I suggest READING IT.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073476 - 03/05/11 11:15 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

May your shit come to life and kiss you on the face. -Frank Zappa


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073498 - 03/05/11 11:22 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Who am I?  Tipper Gore?

I can out-Zappa you, commie!

"The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions." -Frank Zappa

You should take that advice to heart, commie.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073518 - 03/05/11 11:26 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Nobody looks good with brown lipstick on.
-- Frank Zappa,


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073524 - 03/05/11 11:28 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff.
-Frank Zappa

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073528 - 03/05/11 11:30 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

If your children ever find out how lame you really are, they'll gonna murder you in your sleep.
-- Frank Zappa,


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073536 - 03/05/11 11:32 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Haha.  THAT'S actually a pretty good one.

Tobacco is my favorite vegetable.
-Frank Zappa

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073557 - 03/05/11 11:36 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Obvious troll is obvious.


--------------------

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #14073595 - 03/05/11 11:44 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Obvious troll is obvious.





And yet YOU keep on posting, commie.  INTERESTING.

I've been called fake or a troll or whatever AT LEAST THREE TIMES.  And do you know what's funny?  It happens EVERY TIME someone I'm talking to finds himself DEFENDING AN INDEFENSIBLE POSITION.  Isn't that interesting?  It's almost like the people here are INCAPABLE of ADMITTING WHEN THEY'RE WRONG.  You'd think drug-fueled hippies would be more OPEN-MINDED.  I guess that myth is FALSE.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073601 - 03/05/11 11:46 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

What evidence do you have that I'm a commie?  If you provide no evidence for such insinuations, then the troll accusation stands.


--------------------

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #14073654 - 03/05/11 11:57 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

What evidence do you have that I'm a troll, commie?  EXACTLY.  Just because YOU don't agree with ME, all of a sudden I'm a troll.  Appearently it's against the forum rules to HAVE AN OPINION around here.  Maybe I should just delete all my posts, and then rewrite them ALL talking about how much I love obama and hate our military.  I PROMISE YOU I wouldn't get a SINGLE accusation of being fake.  And yet, I'M the fake one.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073668 - 03/06/11 12:01 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

And yet, I'M the fake one.

Well at least you admit it.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073670 - 03/06/11 12:02 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Screaming Eagle said:
What evidence do you have that I'm a troll, commie?



The fact that you call people commies for disagreeing with you, all the while projecting that same infantile behavior onto them.  This is what's known as "trolling."


--------------------

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073690 - 03/06/11 12:08 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And yet, I'M the fake one.

Well at least you admit it.:thumbup:




Isolating a SMALL FRACTION of my overall post and TWISTING IT to make me sound wrong.  Boy, I didn't see THAT coming.  That must be part of the shroomery.org forum handbook because the ONLY person I've seen who DOESN'T do that is Zappaisgod.  Or maybe the fact that he's the MOST INTELLIGENT poster here has something to do with it.

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #14073706 - 03/06/11 12:12 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Screaming Eagle said:
What evidence do you have that I'm a troll, commie?



The fact that you call people commies for disagreeing with you, all the while projecting that same infantile behavior onto them.  This is what's known as "trolling."





I don't "call people commies for disagreeing with me."  I call commies commies.  Leftists.  Socialists.  Liberals.  Whatever they go by these days, a commie is a commie.  And infantile behavior?  You must have me confused with someone else.  We're only human.  We make mistakes.  I'll forgive you for that.

I do apologize though for calling you a commie if you're not one.  I just assumed you were since the only time I've EVER interacted with you, it involved YOU being hostile towards ME.  I don't mean to hurt feelings, but if you come out with guns a'blazing, don't be surprised when I return fire.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073708 - 03/06/11 12:12 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Don't forget to apologise to me too.

I'm sure Zap is proud to have you for a comrade.

:curbyourenthusiasm::haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073720 - 03/06/11 12:16 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Don't forget to apologise to me too.

:curbyourenthusiasm::haha:





For WHAT?  Being a commie?  And yet, I'M the infantile one.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073727 - 03/06/11 12:18 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

You're trolling again comrade.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Icelander]
    #14073740 - 03/06/11 12:22 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You're trolling again comrade.:nono:




If THAT constitutes trolling then I have YET to see a post where you HAVEN'T been trolling.  So I believe I'll fit right in with the rest of you.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Screaming Eagle]
    #14073752 - 03/06/11 12:28 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Screaming Eagle said:
I don't "call people commies for disagreeing with me."  I call commies commies.



And where's your evidence that Icelander is a commie?

Quote:

Leftists.



Broad category.  Includes many non-communists.

Quote:

Socialists.



Again, includes communists, but not exclusive to them.

Quote:

Liberals.



Not communist.

Quote:

Whatever they go by these days, a commie is a commie.



And you wouldn't recognize one if they were staring you in the face.

Quote:

And infantile behavior?  You must have me confused with someone else.



So you weren't the one that wrote:

"Oh my Lord, what a shock!  A COMMIE who is an ATHIEST! Consider my mind blown! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go confirm reports that there's a FISH who loves to SWIM."

Quote:

We're only human.  We make mistakes.



That's okay.  I forgive you.

Quote:

I do apologize though for calling you a commie if you're not one.  I just assumed you were since the only time I've EVER interacted with you, it involved YOU being hostile towards ME.  I don't mean to hurt feelings, but if you come out with guns a'blazing, don't be surprised when I return fire.



All I ask is that before you go firing, you know what you're shooting at.


--------------------

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OfflineZenarchist23
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Silversoul]
    #14073818 - 03/06/11 12:53 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheThinker said:
Quote:

Psilly Billy said:
Wow. What does that mean?




You should speak the language the People speak in this land.



I really get tired of English only whiners.




Sweet Bastet's Ta-Tas, that was EPIC.


Just look at the two pages of wank and avoidance it spawned.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #14074542 - 03/06/11 12:53 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Cut out this infantile crap. Address the topic of the thread or don't bother posting. I'm not going to overreact to the occasional zinger - those will always pop up from time to time on a political discussion board - but pages and pages of sniping back and forth is puerile. Move on, all of you.

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