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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: quiver]
#6323105 - 11/30/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I dont think the idea of americans not deserving of the benefits of their citizenship really means anything. There are so many attributes people are born with that can help or hurt. From having a literal birth defect, to being born in a time of famine, or under a shittie political system. Somebody gets born near a productive fishery, somebody gets born in a barren desert.
Americans give out lots of citizenship. Its obvious we cant take everyone, and everyone doesnt want to come here. But alot do, and we cant take all of them. As unfortunate as it is that some people arnt born americans ( ) it just happens.
That said, mexicans get a higher percentage of citizenship than any other nation. Thats not fair. To be fair we should grant an equal proportional amount of citizenship to people all around the globe. Plus we maximize our multi-culturalism by diversifying the immigrants.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6323337 - 12/01/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?
The population of the US is already 300 million and rising. Do you really want hundreds of millions more people there?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6323625 - 12/01/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?
If you read my posts so far in this thread, you'll see that I'm in favor of speeding up the immigration process, but you seem to be suggesting opening the borders in a free-for-all. That would harm everyone in the long run, US Citizens and immigrants alike. It's not sustainable to just let anyone in any time they want, and I can't believe you think otherwise.
Furthermore, the US has a historically low unemployment rate. The illegals aren't actually taking any jobs.
But there are SOME unemployed Americans, and the rest are more and more being employed in low-paying service jobs for which they compete directly with immigrants.
I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws
Canada doesn't share a border with a dirt poor country, and it has no proximity to poor areas in the Caribbean. If we allow unrestricted immigration, there would be a stampede across the Mexican border and a flotilla of poor people from Cuba, Haiti, and the other poor islands south of us.
That's an unsustainable policy that would harm everyone more than help.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6323832 - 12/01/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws, you can see the relevant document here: http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/i-2.5/
Alright, I took your advice and read the relevant regulations.
You will notice no quotas or mandatory waiting periods for basic entry and temporary or permanent residency.
Although they don't have quotas or waiting periods, they DO have strict restrictions on WHO can come into the country. In summary, there are three types of Canadian immigration applicant:
1. Economic Class - You fall in this class if you have a work skill like an engineer or doctor, or if you are a business person, meaning you own or are closely associated with a Canadian business.
2. Family Class - You have a close relative who is a Canadian citizen and who will sponsor you.
3. Refugee Class - You are fleeing political (NOT economic) persecution at home and have no other place to go.
You must fall into one of these three classes to be admitted into the country as a resident. Clearly, the majority of Mexicans coming to the US fall into none of these three categories because almost all of them are just dirt poor people looking for a better life. They're ECONOMIC refugees and they don't qualify.
If Canada shared a border with Mexico, their regulations would prevent almost all immigration and so is far more restrictive than US immigration law currently.
Check it out for yourself here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/faq/immigrating-1.html
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6323864 - 12/01/06 09:59 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
Diploid said: You just don't seem to get that they DO have the choice. It requires they apply like everyone else, wait in line like everyone else, then become American citizens, like everyone else.
Why are you so hell-bent on defending people who are butting in line? I don't understand this.
Do you know how long the current line is for many parts of the world?
Why do we force university educated East-Asians and Eastern Europeans to wait in excess of TEN YEARS until we can benefit from their talents?
Could that have something to do with being over run with illegals?
Furthermore, the US has a historically low unemployment rate. The illegals aren't actually taking any jobs. There are many posts in this thread that make this claim, but so long as the unemployment rate is at 4% (compare that to 8% or even 10% during the 1980s and early 1990s) there are simply enough jobs to go around.
No, they are driving wages down, and contributing to the elimination of the middle class.
Personally, I want our economy to benefit from the skill and output of these immigrants, and I think we could benefit a lot more than we currently are if we laxed immigration laws.
What is your agenda, why do you push for something that is so obviously effecting your country negatively?
Quote:
Diploid said: Do you seriously think that instantly allowing the entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country to just come here uncontrolled would do anything but cause far more harm than good?
I mean, seriously, take a step back and look at what you're suggesting!
I think you need to look into the Canadian immigration laws, you can see the relevant document here: http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/i-2.5/
You will notice no quotas or mandatory waiting periods for basic entry and temporary or permanent residency. And yet Canada hasn't been flooded with the "entire impoverished population of Mexico and every other country"
First of all, Canada does not let anyone in. We also would not have the jobs to support them. Last but most least, we do not share a border with a developing nation.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6324307 - 12/01/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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My good friend is an illegal immigrant here in the US, and due to new laws passed he now has to pay out of state tuition. His asshole parents wont pay so he thinking about going to Canada, but they wont take him. Hes a fairly smart guy, a physics major, Im not sure why Canada wont take him. Hes not rich enough I suppose.
Side note: His native Ireland wont let him pay instate tuition either! He is a man without a country.
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bigtee212
Stranger
Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 221
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: DieCommie]
#6324329 - 12/01/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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im not worried about them stealing jobs, but for a country to run correctly we need to be able to at least make sure we can account for who is coming in, as in not mexican prisoners... it needs to be organized is what im saying, i have nothing against anything else aobut it, but if there is not a structered system america could not run like it does. maybe people in their day to day life can just do whatever they want and it works fine, but a government and country cant function like that, at least not an advanced one
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: bigtee212]
#6324381 - 12/01/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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About the jobs issue...
I have seen native Americans (people born here) struggle to compete with Mexicans. At the restaurant I worked as a server, there was an anglo american who was a cook and unfortunately wanst very smart. Not retarded, just not quick maybe like forrest gump, but real nice guy and a hard worker. He had a wife and a child to support. But he just couldn't get along with the Mexican cook staff. They refused to speak or even try english. The kitchen manager would give him the shittiest job. They would blast their music and he could never play his, not even for a short time. The other cooks would mock him constantly. Eventually he got fired, and I dont think he deserved it.
But that was the exception. I have spent over 7 years supporting myself with tips jobs at the restaurant. That was the only time I seen a native American working as a cook.
Of course as a user, I have lots of friends who are addicts, felons, and mal-adjusted characters. They need jobs too, and being a cook at a restaurant is a perfect job for them.
I watch Colbert every night, and the other night he said this... A chicken processing plant got all its illegals kicked out and had to shut down. As you know when he says things its usually sarcastic mocking others by making ridiculous statements. Well, he says mockingly ' Now we can have our homeless and felons process our chicken! ', like thats a bad thing. Its good to kick out the illegals and give their jobs to felons and the homeless. Felons and homeless need jobs too, jobs help keep them from being felons and homeless.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
#6326842 - 12/02/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I spoke too quickly about the Canada thing, sorry, I live in an environment where most of my friends and neighbors are from East-Asia, and I'm frequently blown away by how few of them are are citizens, when all are University Educated. Anyway, a common trick they use to get citizenship faster is to go to Canada first, and because they all have University Degrees, getting citizenship is no problem. Then they immigrate to America as a Canadian (rather than Chinese, Japanese, or South Korean) citizen to get around quotas.
Quote:
Diploid said: It's not sustainable to just let anyone in any time they want, and I can't believe you think otherwise.
I think otherwise because the relevant academic research suggests otherwise.
Since you already looked up one thing I suggested, maybe you'll look up another: http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/253.pdf
It's an academic paper by Prof. David Card at Princeton on the effects of the Mariel Boat Lift on Miami's labor market. (there are also some summaries floating around online if you don't want to read the whole thing)
For those of you who aren't familiar, facing a desperate economic situation in Cuba during 1980, Castro decided to allow everyone who wanted to leave Cuba leave during a one-time-only shot. This resulted in approximately 125,000 people who had litterally nothing arriving in Miami at about the same time.
Anyway, Card looked at the effect on the labor market, and he found that the result was basically non-existant. The sudden massive surge in unskilled workers allowed companies that were going to eliminate jobs in favor of automation instead switch to cheaper, more labor intensive processes. This created more jobs without driving-down labor wages (money that would have been spent on automation went to wages instead) and the total output of Miami increased.
So, if Miami alone could handle a sudden increase of that magnitude without wages collapsing and unemployment going through the roof, I really don't see any merit to the "Immigrants make us all poor" argument. I'm forced to conclude, based upon the Miami experience, that letting people in will actually result in increased output and we'll all be richer instead of poorer.
Edit: In response to the comments by Hank and others, I would really like to challenge the posters in this thread to provide evidence to counter mine, specifically numbers showing that large numbers of immigrants actually have the negative impacts that have been claimed.
Edited by Economist (12/02/06 10:37 AM)
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Conservationist
Stranger
Registered: 12/02/06
Posts: 435
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: RandalFlagg]
#6326967 - 12/02/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: I am annoyed at how some people characterize everybody who is against illegal immigrants as being a racist or a xenophone.
It's just a cheap tactic because they can't out-argue you. The accusation "racist" is so old it's fossil, but most people aren't yet aware of that.
I'm against immigration because multiculturalism doesn't work. It never has in history, and it doesn't currently work in America. The solution is ethnic separation, and I'm certain it will take the rest of them another 20+ years to see that.
If we do it peacefully, we can avoid the tedium of violent white and black nationalist revolutions. And if we're too blind to see that, we get what we deserve.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Conservationist said: I'm against immigration because multiculturalism doesn't work. It never has in history, and it doesn't currently work in America. The solution is ethnic separation, and I'm certain it will take the rest of them another 20+ years to see that.
Uh...
I'm pretty sure the US has lower unemployment and higher economic growth than the European Union, and we're quite a bit more multicultural than they are. (The Bureau of Labor Statistics and the European Central Bank also tend to agree with this if you want to check out their websites)
Do you define "doesn't work" as "does better economically"?
Even when you look at instances like crime or education, the US is still ahead of more homogenous counter-parts.
For example, compare the rate of violent crime in the US to that in the far more homogenous countries of South America like Brazil, Argentina, or god help you, Colombia.
And while our public schools may not do so well compared to their OECD counterparts, the OECD has concluded that American Universities are infact better than their foreign counter parts (source: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/35341210.pdf ), hence why corporate America does so well sitting attop a supposedly "inferior" system.
So, yeah, given that the US does better in basically every single category than more homogenous societies, can you please explain how "multiculturalism doesn't work"?
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Quote:
Conservationist said: It's just a cheap tactic because they can't out-argue you. The accusation "racist" is so old it's fossil, but most people aren't yet aware of that.
I'm against immigration because multiculturalism doesn't work. It never has in history, and it doesn't currently work in America. The solution is ethnic separation, and I'm certain it will take the rest of them another 20+ years to see that.
If we do it peacefully, we can avoid the tedium of violent white and black nationalist revolutions. And if we're too blind to see that, we get what we deserve.
Dude......you are so far away from what Randal was trying to say that I'm not sure where to begin.
He isn't against immigration. He is against illegal immigrants who are here sponging off our society.
If you truly believe that immigration is a downfall for America then you are one of the most delusional people I have talked to today
This country is based on immigration Virtually every person born in America is a mutt. A mixture of several different nationalities and ethnic backgrounds. There is no true American lineage. Americans are a vast cornucopia of races, nationalities and ethnic heritages.
To say that immigration is a hindrance to America.....is ignorance pure and simple. Immigration and multi-cultural-ism is our primary strength
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Illegal Immigration *DELETED* [Re: niteowl]
#6327322 - 12/02/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by DieCommieReason for deletion: .
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: DieCommie]
#6327415 - 12/02/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: DieCommie]
#6327479 - 12/02/06 02:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6327852 - 12/02/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's an academic paper by Prof. David Card at Princeton on the effects of the Mariel Boat Lift on Miami's labor market.
Miami is not representative of the US in general.
I was born in Miami and lived through the Mariel boat-lift. Miami already had a dense population of Latinos before Mariel. And the people who came to Miami at that time all had relatives here who supported them, sometimes for years, until they became documented, found jobs and settled down. They were equivalent to 'Family' class in Canada. Without support from their families, those people would all have been wards of the state, dragging down the state economy.
Put those same Cubans in Boise instead of Miami, without rooted families to support them, and the academic papers would show a different story.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
#6328345 - 12/02/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Miami is not representative of the US in general.
Okay, then let's see some better data.
Quote:
Diploid said: Put those same Cubans in Boise instead of Miami, without rooted families to support them, and you'll the academic papers would all show a different story.
Really, can you provide some examples?
The fact of the matter is that the US immigration policy has done nothing but liberalize since the start of the 20th century, and it has never resulted in an unmanageable flow of immigrants. Furthermore, the surge in illegals happened during the last 20 years or so, the same period which also gave rise to the longest period of low inflation and the lowest ever recorded unemployment rates in the history of America.
I'm hearing a lot of arguments from your end, but I'm not seeing a lot of facts to back them up.
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: niteowl]
#6328618 - 12/02/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
quiver said: don't you claim most of the taxes you pay in earnings back anyway?
If i worked a lot of overtime and ended up paying extra money into the system, then I will be able to get some of that money back at the end of the year.
If I didn't pay enough taxes.....then I will have to pay the government money at the end of the year.
here it used to be if you eaned a dollar you payed 25 cent tax on it and you got it back when you lodged your tax returns every year
nows its all confusing with red tape and crap for tax breaks for the rich and no tax for the poor if you earn under a certain amount like 130 bucks a week or something
welfare pays more
i am on disability and i am allowed to work if i was able too and can earn no more than sixty dollars a week and if i did my rent would double
i dont because id rather have the money than my fucking landlord
i used to pay 20 bucks tax out of my pension everyweek and get it back but dont anymore. i could claim for an extra 200 a week for my wife as a carers pension but dont and i still havent applied for a disability sticker for using the door stop parking facilites everywhere but im going too,fuck them
when i worked we had to becareful with overtime,if you worked to much only your boss got rich after tax
once we worked an all day sunday because we had a crane out for hire on the job and even though it was triple pay i eanred fucking 30 dollars after tax,the boss gave us fucking turkeys and prawns for christmas as a ty for that rippoff so atleast he understood and helped abit but damn i wa spissed at the government and myself for being a blue collar worker
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Economist]
#6329701 - 12/03/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Really, can you provide some examples?
Sure, lemme just look up the details of the last Cuba to Boise boat-lift.
I'm hearing a lot of arguments from your end, but I'm not seeing a lot of facts to back them up.
You're not seeing the data because no country is stupid enough to open its borders for free access to anyone. A study isn't necessary to know what's common sense.
According to your report, Miami was already more than 35% immigrants when Mariel happened, allowing the new immigrants to be absorbed, mainly by family already here. That puts most of the Mariel immigrants in the equivalent of Canada's 'Family' status. It's this familial support that minimizes the impact on the area economy.
Canadians, who have some common sense, would have allowed most of the Mariel immigrants in on a promise from their families to support them. The rest without family in Canada would have been denied entry. More Canadian common sense there. This, in fact, happened in Miami where Mariel immigrants were kept at the Krome Detention Center just west of Miami until their families came to get them.
Your report is not representative of what would happen someplace where the immigrant population is not already a 35% minority. Miami is unique and the skewed economic results represents that.
Instead of picking your data, why don't you take a broader look at the academic studies, not just the ones that back your point. An intellectually honest search will find plenty of support for the idea that, while controlled immigration is a good thing, illegal / uncontrolled immigration is and has been bad for our economy overall.
But since you're hung up on studies, here's one from the Center for Immigration Studies, an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
Summary: This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.
Uncontrolled free immigration of poor people with no job skills, no job, no money, and no place to live is a disaster. This is common sense and most people don't need a study to know this.
But whatever. Believe what you will. I'm just glad your idea of free, open borders will never be tested.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Illegal Immigration [Re: Diploid]
#6330594 - 12/03/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Instead of picking your data, why don't you take a broader look at the academic studies, not just the ones that back your point. An intellectually honest search will find plenty of support for the idea that, while controlled immigration is a good thing, illegal / uncontrolled immigration is and has been bad for our economy overall.
Okay, let's do an "intellectually honest search" and see what we find:
Here'a a paper that was actually peer reviewed, written by two professors at Chapman University: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584#PaperDownload I think the most relevant finding is summarized here: "The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services."
Then we have this paper, a collaboration between professors at UC San Diego, Dartmouth, UMich, and the IMF: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=296108#PaperDownload Their relevant conclusions include: "Despite the geographic concentration of recent immigrants, wages have not fallen perceptibly in the gateway communities in which immigrants settle. ... Despite immigrant use of public assistance, the net fiscal transfer from natives to immigrants appears to be very small at the national level, though it is higher in a few specific states that have both generous welfare benefits and large immigrant populations."
It's also pretty easy to find literature stating that illegal immigrants aren't actually a drain on the US economy, for example this one: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=84UQuGMDN0YC&oi
Quote:
Diploid said: But since you're hung up on studies, here's one from the Center for Immigration Studies, an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization
Ah yes, the good old CIS.
Hey, did you know that the CIS was set up by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a known anti-immigration group?
You can read about it here: http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/tilove042406.html
Quote:
Diploid said: Uncontrolled free immigration of poor people with no job skills, no job, no money, and no place to live is a disaster. This is common sense and most people don't need a study to know this.
Science and statistics exist specifically because so much of what was once called "common sense" has been proven time and time again to be completely wrong.
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