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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5609192 - 05/09/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with your solution, and I agree with you on all of your points that aren't pure speculation and personal interpretation. But I don't agree with this:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
5. The opportunity for the most ambitious Mexican and other nationality workers to leave and come to America is a disincentive for them to fix their own fucked up countries. And by their abandonment of those countries they leave only the most timid behind.

They are deserters and traitors to their own people. They take the easy way out and, by so doing, contribute to the continued failure of their own nation.





The whole point of my post is that it is totally ridiciulous, pompous, ignorant and unproductive for everyone to keep bringing all their interpretations of what illegal immigrants are all about to the table. I understand that this is how you interpret their motivation for coming here, and that this is why you think Mexico isn't as stable financially or politically as the US. But you should be able to recognize that your standpoint is totally subjective and really pretty groundless.

Even if you were right about this (which you aren't), I would urge you to base your stance on illegal immigrants (which I happen to agree with) on practicality instead of animosity towards an innaccurate generaliztion of a group of millions of people.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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OfflineEmptySpace
Stranger
Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 69
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5609301 - 05/09/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Show me the link where it says it is a lie. If it is we have a big problem with higher education political science courses.


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We can't stop here - This is bat country.

-Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
Informer
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 208
Loc: Chicago
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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EmptySpace]
    #5609352 - 05/09/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The solution of all of this is to stop the US government from selling cheap crops in Mexico and quit dumping our excess on them. Then mabey they won't be coming over and they will be making money on their own farms if everyone in Mexico buys Mexican products.?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Offlinequillini
one meanmotorscooter
Male

Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EmptySpace]
    #5609363 - 05/09/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It's the O'Reilly Method: that which you cannot argue against, denounce as a lie.

If Mexicans aren't mostly Republican yet (and I believe they are), you know they will be before too long.


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No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...

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Offlinequillini
one meanmotorscooter
Male

Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5609430 - 05/09/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
The solution of all of this is to stop the US government from selling cheap crops in Mexico and quit dumping our excess on them. Then mabey they won't be coming over and they will be making money on their own farms if everyone in Mexico buys Mexican products.?




The US government doesn't sell Mexico crops; private landowners sell crops to agricultural firms, who sell those crops to retail outlets in Mexico, the same retail outlets Mexican farmers would be selling to if they could outbid US ag corporations, which, due to the scale and efficiency of US agriculture, they can't.

This is neoliberal economics, one of many logical conclusions of capitalism, and it's waaaay too late to turn it around now. As a capitalist, I believe this will ultimately result in the greater good. For one thing, multilateral trade agreements create a disincentive for political strife, which means less senseless war.

Think about it: two countries operating as a single economic bloc are too interdependent to go to war with one another. Neither country would stand to benefit. That's part of the reason why I predict the US and China will never go to war over Taiwan. Taiwan holds sentimental value to both countries for bullshit reasons, but it will quickly be overshadowed by the prospect of, say, Walmart and McDonalds being closed in China, and China's cheap manufacturing being cut off from the US. The populations of both countries would have major lifestyle disruptions in the event of war, and the prospect of a war affecting you in a real way tends to make you think real hard about whether "democracy" and "territorial integrity" are really worth the price of giving up modern conveniences.

OK so that was kind of a rant, but in a roundabout way, here's one solution that would improve the situation:

End the drug war. Watch how quickly Mexico's economy takes off. There could be some semblance of law and order, businesses could operate on a stable peso with foreign investors clamoring to throw money at them, because greater political stability means better confidence in your investment.


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: quillini]
    #5609446 - 05/09/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

quillini said:
End the drug war.  Watch how quickly Mexico's economy takes off.  There could be some semblance of law and order, businesses could operate on a stable peso with foreign investors clamoring to throw money at them, because greater political stability means better confidence in your investment.



:thumbup:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EmptySpace]
    #5609449 - 05/09/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EmptySpace said:
Show me the link where it says it is a lie. If it is we have a big problem with higher education political science courses.




Just so everyone knows what he's talking about, I will quote,
Quote:

A side note, Hispanics are typically republican. Peace.




Then he said this,
Quote:

Show me the link where it says it is a lie. If it is we have a big problem with higher education political science courses.





And another knucklehead weighed in with this
Quote:

It's the O'Reilly Method: that which you cannot argue against, denounce as a lie.

If Mexicans aren't mostly Republican yet (and I believe they are), you know they will be before too long.





So, like any intrepid seeker of truth (or well, actually, intrepid debunker of bullshit) I accessed the great god google and googled this, "hispanic voting patterns." Guess what I found.

This will do:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/nadler200412080811.asp
"These 20 states account for 91 percent of the nation’s Hispanic population. Respondents, including 3,586 Hispanics, completed 35,891 short-form surveys. Within this 20-state set, George W. Bush won the votes of 41.28 percent of Hispanic respondents polled, compared to 57.47 for John Kerry. But the NEP sampled battleground states more heavily than non-battleground states. Rebalancing the Hispanic totals for Bush and Kerry state-by-state to reflect the Hispanic population in each relative to the total Hispanic population for the 20-state set, Bush won 38.07 percent of the Hispanic vote, compared to 59.67 for Kerry."

Oh yes, grasshopper, we have a BIG problem with "higher Ed" political science education. Either that or students are getting stupider and can't follow the lesson. I wasn't there so I can't say.


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Offlinequillini
one meanmotorscooter
Male

Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5609481 - 05/09/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Even if they're not Republican yet, Mexicans do tend to be socially conservative and absurdly religious. If Republicans are smart, they'll pick up a huge (and growing) demographic. But if they keep being dumb, who knows? Maybe Democrats will run another Catholic candidate, and then Republicans will be fucked.


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: quillini]
    #5609541 - 05/09/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that Hispanics are an untapped voter pool for Republicans. Note the relevant word here, which is "untapped." Note the word I used earlier, which was "lie," which was a perfectly accurate description of his assertion that Hispanics were mostly Republicans.


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Offlinequillini
one meanmotorscooter
Male

Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5609600 - 05/09/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I agree that Hispanics are an untapped voter pool for Republicans. Note the relevant word here, which is "untapped." Note the word I used earlier, which was "lie," which was a perfectly accurate description of his assertion that Hispanics were mostly Republicans.




Then by the same logic, you'll have to admit Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq.

Sorry, I just had to go there.


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: quillini]
    #5609890 - 05/09/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well that's unfortunate because I was able to find, with a few simple mouse clicks, definitive evidence that Hispanics are not, and do not vote, Republican. Are you such a simple person that you think google is the answer to our national intelligence needs?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5610184 - 05/09/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Imagine if the illegals could vote?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineEmptySpace
Stranger
Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 69
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5610187 - 05/09/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I have heard that hispanics were republican in the past, moreover, it was actually printed in the textbook. Thanks for the info. Just because the voted Kerry does not ultimately mean that they are Democrats; however, it is probably a good basis for your argument.

Peace


--------------------
We can't stop here - This is bat country.

-Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Edited by EmptySpace (05/09/06 08:02 PM)

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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: quillini]
    #5611110 - 05/10/06 12:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

you'll have to admit Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq.




Bush lied about WMDs and you know what else...... illegals dont belong here.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
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Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EmptySpace]
    #5612307 - 05/10/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EmptySpace said:
I have heard that hispanics were republican in the past, moreover, it was actually printed in the textbook.




Perhaps you're thinking of the highly publicized information about Cuban (more specific than Hispanic) voters who just may have been significant enough to swing victory to Bush in Florida in the last election (although I'm pretty sure the margin of voter fraud at the gain of the RNC is greater than the Cuban voting population in Florida). Remember the "Viva Bush" movement? It was all based in the Cuban communities in Florida that happen to very very anti-Castro. Bush was able to win their vote and even benefited from a grassroots Get-Out-The-Vote Campaign within that community based on the notion that Republicans are "harder" on Communism in Cuba.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Offlinequillini
one meanmotorscooter
Male

Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5614355 - 05/10/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well that's unfortunate because I was able to find, with a few simple mouse clicks, definitive evidence that Hispanics are not, and do not vote, Republican. Are you such a simple person that you think google is the answer to our national intelligence needs?




Your evidence is suggestive, but far from definitive. But I already admitted it was valid, so maybe you should quit while you're ahead. Or maybe you should elaborate on your thoughts on google or whatever, and continue to make an ass of yourself.


--------------------
No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility.

Only connect...

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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: quillini]
    #5614808 - 05/10/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I always heard that Mexicans vote democrat and they are Catholic.  :smirk:


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HELP!!!!!!!!!

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: The Immigration Debate [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5617892 - 05/11/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know what you spent on your education but you clearly got a better deal than quillini.


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