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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5491742 -

Dip, do you really want to be calling other peoples growth stagnant, when you have been posting the same mysticism criticisms for years?

How has doing that for years shifted your your personal growth into a higher/deeper understanding that serves you, from out of it's stagnation?

You say you like to play fair so play fair.

Isn't going into hypotheticals going into imagination and fantasy?

Ironic how you have to ask members to use their imagination to prove imagination is fantasy and expect to get a result that isn't pure fantasy. I thought fantasy had no logical or practical value to you so why ask for an answer derived from imagination?

The use of imagination portion of the brain isn't going anywhere. It has a use and constructive purpose for our growth. We use it to visualize ideas before we set them into clay, contemplate possibilities or consequences when making choices, to create life with in essence, figuratively and literally.

The abstract and concrete are two different planes of existence. Neither will validate the other on its own turf. The concrete is only validated by the laws of the concrete and the abstract is only validated by the laws of the abstract.

What you are attempting to do is like taking a Picasso abstract of a human and saying it doesn't match what we can verify humans actually look like in physical reality. So you conclude, it is a fake/false/misleading representation of the truth of concrete reality and just threw a $400,000 painting out of your window.  :confused:

The abstract has value and meaning through personal interpretation and subjective personal experience for some, even if it was to be found to be generated from a physical source.:shrug: Are you ever going to accept that?

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5491883 -

So why is astrology, alchemy, and metaphysics not a course in college? Is it that these have been found to be useless portrayal's of the imagination linked with fantasy, or are the professors too short-sighted?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5492011 -

The fact that the "Mysticheads" here can't answer a simple yes or no question kinda makes me think they truly are delusional. You know, without the "half full, hall empty" psuedo answers that are coming out. Not that I'm against mysticism, but I think Diploid just unconsciously proved one of his points.

The question is basically:
"Would you give up your mystical beliefs if all mysticism was PROVEN to be false beyond ALL doubt? It doesn't matter if it CAN or CAN'T theoretically be done, it's just asking YES or NO. So...would you?"


--------------------
:poison: :poison: :poison:

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5492015 -

So, my answer would be: Yes.

I am only looking for the truth whether I like what the final answer is or not. If all mysticism were PROVEN false, then I would give up my attachments to it (although I don't have many).


--------------------
:poison: :poison: :poison:

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5492017 -

If it would be proven to be completely false, inaccurate and would not have any informational value in it, I would agree (as I said before).
But if you wish me to explain, why that never happens, I will start a new thread.

So why discuss an obviously rational false hypothesis ?

I will turn the question around, to show the paradox:

To all matter-heads:
"Would you call mystical beliefs completely true, if there is one (former) mystery, which can be proven (becoming) true (explained in the way of the belief) beyond ALL doubt ?"

:lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (04/08/06 08:02 AM)

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5492029 -

To name call and call people "delusional"... what brought that on? I'm just wondering where all this aggression is coming from. You guys even have a slur now.  :rolleyes:  As for the question... it's nothing special. It's just using fastistic hypotheticals to linguistically hold someone up at gun point. It's a cheap, childish debate tactic, and it can be used from virtually any point of view. It's not really original either.

Anyway, this Mystic Head needs to make some sunny side up eggs
A happy Om to you


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Edited by Basilides (04/08/06 08:23 AM)

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5492369 -

I am actually "upset" at myself for responding to you again. You do not have the discernment for interior conditions. You may have your own idiosyncratic understanding about words like "fantasy," or "wish fulfillment," both of which are understood by most people to be Freudian terms, so at least I have a grasp of where your trying to come from. The silly words you use like "mumbo-jumbo" does have an origin in a perjorative mockery of some tribal language (just like the word 'gibberish' derives from ignorant people mocking the Arabic alchemist al Jabir). However, you do not have any real conceptual leg to stand on over and against mysticism. You have neither an academic or an experiential frame of reference that is capable of understanding the nature of mystical religious experience. I do not have the ability to understand advanced mathematical constructs like String Theory, but you won't hear me calling mathematicians crackpots or accusing them of 'gibberish' because I just don't get it. THAT is the difference between you and me.

I can certainly admit that I'm wrong, but I am not 'wrong' when I have been fortunate enough to have had some life-enhancing experiences of a mystical nature, and some non-comprehending individual simply proclaims that 'I' couldn't possibly have such an experience because he doesn't know what it is! MY experiences do not fit into your range of experiences, and because YOU haven't had such an experience, you arrogantly deny that the same exists - as if YOU are the standard by which the range of human experiences are to be measured. You are inflated to an extreme degree because in your limited world view you think that you can accurately assess another individual's inner world. Sorry, but you just don't have any credibility to be discerning the qualitative nature of my Experience. You don't know a Freudian 'construct' (or what he based his concepts on) from the phenomenology of mystical experience - it's all just vague - to YOU.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5492686 -

To all matter-heads:

It's Science Head, not Matter Head.  :tongue:

"Would you call mystical beliefs completely true, if there is one (former) mystery, which can be proven (becoming) true (explained in the way of the belief) beyond ALL doubt ?"

Yes, in an instant. Prove some mystical thing (telepathy, astral projection, remote viewing, telekinesis, [fill in the blank], and I will change my stance immediately. It would be stagnation and dogma to do otherwise.

Do you not see me here for years asking questions and putting forth my science-head ideas for the very purpose of inviting critique to see if I may be wrong? I'm not here trying to convince anyone. I'm trying to burn away nonsense in the crucible of philosophic discussion to get at the truth, which I will accept, whatever it may be.

I find this a next to impossible task as every time I say something that threatens a mystic head's beliefs, rather than address the holes in their beliefs or answer my simple questions directly and honestly, they attack me with ad hominems that have nothing to do with the thing we're discussing. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/08/06 02:31 PM)

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5492717 -

jest count the number of times a poster sez "you" in there post and then you can tell if they our really responding or atacking.


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
    #5492719 -

Temptress said:
prayer study fails and beleivers still offen up a bogis exsplanation as too why it failed.




there are plenty of studies which show that prayer works, though.

without faith you confine yourself to only living one life, this individual life, and you limit yourself to only the fleeting pleasures of the world.

with faith you can live this life, live it as best and as fulfillingly as you can, and then just hopefully our faith and hope payed off. i do not think it foolish for people to believe in things, after the experience i had on DXM last night I see just why exactly we HAVE to believe in things! it's the only way to stay sane.

but ah you must be very sure..... very careful, that what you believe in is the best thing for you, helps you rather than hurts. the Buddha was ascetic for a long while..... starved almost to death..... then realized the simple way of the middle path. The middle path. You live your life. You live it peacefully..... and if you have reason to believe in things then you do.

But you have to try and figure out how to be fulfilled with God/Christ/Buddha Nature RIGHT NOW in THIS LIFETIME it's important to strive for fulfillment, and maybe to the atheist all that means is you find a way to feel HAPPY and peaceful consistently.... but....

to shun all of it as nonsense is nonsense to begin with you know? that's my take.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (04/08/06 02:14 PM)

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: leery11]
    #5492724 -

half "show" that it works and half "show" that it duzn't - jest like any chance occurance.


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
    #5492748 -

but placebos work......... 30-40% of the effects of any given medical drug are believed to be placebo.

so what do we make of this? Of course it doesn't work for everyone! But for those who take it and really want to improve and embrace it fully, the placebo works for them, they take a sugar pill and it cures their headache...........

the issue with prayer is you cannot, necessarily, circumvent your karma, you won't necessarily spontaneously heal from cancer, but that's not to say that you can't. Because it certainly happens. It's not so much "prayer" it's just, healing. Humans are capable of miraculous healing, some people achieve it through prayer, some through meditation or energy channeling, some just say "hey i'm gonna get better!" and they do.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5492780 -

You have neither an academic or an experiential frame of reference that is capable of understanding the nature of mystical religious experience

This isn't relevant. I don't need a seminary education to ask for a demonstration of something supernatural. I've sought this from books, experimentation, Santeros, Catholics, Satanists, Occultists, Wiccans, and others. Indeed, I've even asked YOU for this, but you refused and summarily dismissed me.

I do not have the ability to understand advanced mathematical constructs like String Theory, but you won't hear me calling mathematicians crackpots or accusing them of 'gibberish' because I just don't get it.

But you can see all around you the benefits of science. You read this message with science. You drive a car invented by science. When you get sick, you go to an applied scientist (a doctor) for help. You use drugs invented by science to heal you.

THAT is why you cannot deny science. You don't have to understand it to see hard, irrefutable evidence of it all around you. Meanwhile, when I look for mysticism, all I see are frauds and charlatans with TV shows and telephone hot lines, every one of which fails miserably when asked for one single simple irrefutable demonstration instead cheap talk, as indeed you did when I asked you.

I can certainly admit that I'm wrong, but I am not 'wrong'

Of course. You can't possibly be wrong. :smirk:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: psyka]
    #5493082 -

psyka said:
So why is astrology, alchemy, and metaphysics not a course in college? Is it that these have been found to be useless portrayal's of the imagination linked with fantasy, or are the professors too short-sighted?


What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? This topic is not about college career choices. On a side note, did you notice the topics to be discussed at the science conference on consciousness? Should I bold some of them for you so you can see what science finds worthy of exploring? :wink:

Diploid, how can you possibly call all people with an personal interest in "mysticism" charlatans and frauds in such a negative light? How long have you come to know most of us on -line?

You know I am a stay at home mom and what my parenting values are. I don't run a psychic hot line. I do nothing "mystical" to draw income from people.

You know Markos is employed by the Florida state of education and counsels teen agers. He doesn't run a psychic hot line. He is paid by the government.

You know paradigm, just graduated from college. You know, he doesn't run a psychic hot line.

You know, Blue works  in the technology field. Blue doesn't run a psychic hot line.

I think you get my point and thats why many of us, don't understand why you call all people with a personal interest in "mysticism" frauds and charlatans. That's a LIE diploid and the evidence to it being a LIE, has been in front of your scientific head all along here.

None of us make a living fraudulently scamming people out of their money. It's delusional to beleive so.

The way I see it, you are trying to make something appear to be something its not.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5493118 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Isn't going into hypotheticals going into imagination and fantasy?


:lol:

Diploid said:
Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all logic is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them?

Serious question.


Same question, same ramifications. I don't understand what the purpose of posing such a question is beyond simple provocation.

If this is this, would you accept that this is this? :wtf: :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5493172 -

If this is this, would you accept that this is this?

exactly how i feel. i really don't know how to respond to this question. i think if any of us here were shown concrete irrefutable evidence of something, we would accept it. that is so obvious that people are responding in a way that attempts to show why this question isn't meaningful or relevant.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Deviate]
    #5493208 -

Quote:
i think if any of us here were shown concrete irrefutable evidence of something, we would accept it.


really? how many times must mystical observations/claims be proved false? has the lack of a predicted end of the world; planet arriving; hoax exposed; ever changed a beleivers mind? all it engenders is spin and excuse making.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
    #5493217 -


really? how many times must mystical observations/claims be proved false? has the lack of a predicted end of the world; planet arriving; hoax exposed; ever changed a beleivers mind? all it engenders is spin and excuse making.

absolutely. assuming anyone here believed the world was going to end at a certain time, i am willing to wager that when it didn't, they accepted the fact that they were wrong. they did not go around proclaiming the world had ended.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5493241 -

This link about a coincidence regarding my father's original Polaroid-Land camera, with original film, that I used is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT thing than what we are currently discussing. That event has nothing, repeat, nothing to do with mysticism. If anything at all, it a synchronicity which is what Jung described as a "psychoid" process - one which involves a co-incidence of inner psychic processes and outer material events. There is no empirical evidence for you to observe, and moreover, you are not someone who I would invite into my home, which is the outer manifestation of my inner life. You are careless to reckless with my inner life as reproduced virtually on this website, so why would I want to bring your manifest physical presence into our home? Get real.

Secondly, where the HELL did you ever get the idea that I was somehow opposed to science? That is just plain stupid. I was a young scientist before I ever attended college where I began studies for medicine. I owned a Helium-Neon LASER and a holography lab in 1970 when most people didn't know what a LASER was. I was studying LASERs 3 years after it was invented, reading Scientific American in the 5th grade and trying to get my father to build a working ruby LASER when I was in the 6th grade from plans in a Popular Science Magazine that I still have.

My parents supplied me with a home lab from the 5th grade on which became more and more sophisticated in time.



Here's my lab in the 6th grade and by 12th grade, plus LASER setup.

I'm a bit older now and made discoveries in my psyche much the way ancient alchemists did by wonderment at purely physical phenomena. In 7th grade, while distilling Bromine in a Perfect Brand 250 ml retort into a a small Florence flask receiver (from Sulfuric Acid and Potassium Bromide - see first pic at left), the wonderment of crimson vapors appearing above a clear solution, darkening, rising, reddening, condensing, liquifying, later connected me to some of the psychological processes that the alchemists were projecting into the physical phenomena. Then I read Jung. There was a young person focused exclusively on outer physical phenomenon, then psychedelics brought the focus inward in such a manner as to be able to make the psyche itself an object of observation. This was the point where I left the study of hard science and began a philosophical inquiry that led me to theology and then to psychology proper.

You simply fail to see or refuse to see what I have endeavored to illustrate to you. I am well aware of the empirical which surrounds me. The senses and rational interpretation of sensory data does not require faith. It is the valuation of the physical (hylic) domain as THAT which is Ultimately Real which puts us at odds. My faith is in the spiritual domain, I am not a materialist any more. I understand, with limitations, the domain that Aristotle symbolizes philosophically, but I have become a Platonist, which takes me from the physical, inwardly through the psychic and eventually to the spiritual which is a domain that can only be alluded to. One can't catch many atoms with a fish next, and one cannot catch (comprehend) the spiritual (transrational, transcendental) with the rational mind. That does not mean the transcendental does not exist. You're trying to see atoms with a light microscope.

Lastly, my talk isn't cheap. It's at least $100.00 per 50 minutes, and that's a bargain because it's an avocation rather than a vocation. My fee is bound to go up because my time is valuable. Consider that when you consider how much time I'm taking to show YOU something.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5493269 -

salary = spiritual worth? what is the relevance besides ego? everyone here contributes freely of their time and as all have roughly the same lifespan than each moment is equally preshus to all.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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