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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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A Question For Mystic Heads
#5490549 - 04/07/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all mysticism is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them?
Serious question.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490630 - 04/07/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If that would mean, that mystics will never be right, then I would agree. But because that never will happen, I am not able to think about it hypothetically
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490634 - 04/07/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Show me this evidence, and we'll see.
--------------------
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490652 - 04/07/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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anwser: no!
crop circels have been shown to manmade and are still conciderd othentic.
prayer study fails and beleivers still offen up a bogis exsplanation as too why it failed.
same with ufo hoaxes and so on.
hell, televangelists are exposed as frauds then still go on to make millions.
msytic head = stuck in fantasy and unable to see what is.
Vernon Howard's SECRETS OF LIFE (R) ********************************************************************** "As a healthy exercise, catch yourself indulging in a pointless imagination, and drop the scene."
Vernon Howard's SECRETS OF LIFE (R) ********************************************************************** "Receiving facts that part of us does not want to receive is a sign of cosmic courage."
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490656 - 04/07/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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""mysticism is fantasy""
this is a fact..
you should look in to what fantasy, is! ...
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Silversoul]
#5490658 - 04/07/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Show me this evidence, and we'll see.
If I had the evidence, it wouldn't be a hypothetical question.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/07/06 05:28 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5490674 - 04/07/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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But because that never will happen
So, you don't even acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that you could be wrong.
That is stagnation: the antithesis to spirituality and growth.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Posts: 14,279
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490691 - 04/07/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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One can illustrate physiological and psychological correlates of religious experience, but only the meaning attributed to the subjective factor can be refuted by an external empirical evaluator. For example, materialist and atheist Sigmund Freud attempted to force religious experiences of the mystical variety into his psychosexual framework (granted, psychoanalysis is anything but hard science). Freud insisted that the "oceanic experience" was nothing but a regression in the service of the ego to an intrauterine memory.
Jean-Paul Sartre refuted the transcendental ego in his book The Transcendence of the Ego on Existentialist philosophical grounds. He too, of course, was an atheist, but he recognized the existence of "absolute consciousness" while denying that a 'subject' (ego) participated in it.
I think C. G. Jung said it best:
"That religious experiences exist no longer needs proof. But it will always remain doubtful whether what metaphysics and theology call God and the gods is the real ground of these experiences. The question is idle, actually, and answers itself by reason of the subjectively overwhelming numinosity of the experience. Anyone who has had it is seized by it and therefore not in a position to indulge in fruitless metaphysical speculations."
Further,
"The religious person enjoys a great advantage when it comes to answering the crucial question that hangs over our time like a threat: he has a clear idea of the way his subjective experience is grounded in his relationship to 'God.' I put the word 'God' in quotes in order to indicate that we are dealing with an anthropomorphic idea whose dynamisms are filtered through the medium of the unconscious psyche. Anyone who wants to can at least draw near to the source of such experiences, no matter whether he believes in God or not."
Lastly,
"This is certainly not to say that what we call the unconscious is identical with God or is set up in his place. It is the medium from which the religious experience seems to flow. As to what the further cause of such an experience may be, the answer to this lies beyond the range of human knowledge. Knowledge of God is a transcendental problem."
Now those of us who claim to share in the above-mentioned "knowledge" in some capacity, have secondarily thrown in with those who choose to believe. Like Doubting Thomas, we chose to believe in God following an experience of 'Knowing.' That is to say, like the experience of Ram Dass* that he related in BE HERE NOW, I for one chose to live 'as if' the Experience had its roots in 'God' as certain metaphysical traditions have described It. As for me, the quality of my life began to improve tremendously after assuming this stance, and for reasons which still escape me. I am sustained during situations hard on the ego, not with doctrines and promises, but with Presence - Presence of Mind - which Jung has described (after Rudolph Otto's term) as "Numinous." Dreams and intuitions speak to me with symbols and insistancy that more often than not provide guidance in life. Doubts (your "fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking") concern doctrines, but not the immediacy of one's awareness, especially a Numinous awareness. After Descartes, I might doubt everything and anything, but I do not doubt my awareness, and a Numinous, cosmic, psychedelic awareness shares all the phenomenology with spiritual traditions since time immemorial. So No, there is not, nor can there ever be "concrete, irrefutable evidence" such as that to which you refer. THAT is a fantasy and reminds me only of '1984,' Soviet gulag 'psychiatric hospitals,' and The Mothers of Invention song 'Who are the Brain Police?'
* "...I felt a new kind of calmness - one of profundity never experienced before. I had just found that 'I', that scanning device - that point - that essence - that I was beyond Life and Death. And something else -that 'I' Knew - it really Knew. It was wise rather than just knowledgeable...Now I only need look within to that place where I Knew."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I for one chose to live 'as if' the Experience had its roots in 'God' as certain metaphysical traditions have described It.
So, rather than seeking Truth, you settle for dogma which may or may not be Truth.
Again, I see in this only stagnation, not spirituality and growth. Growth requires one not to set roots in ideas but to remain agile and willing to change in the light of new information.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/07/06 07:12 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490710 - 04/07/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Show me this evidence, and we'll see.
If I had the evidence, it wouldn't be a hypothetical question.
Then I guess we'll never know.
--------------------
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490726 - 04/07/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: But because that never will happen
So, you don't even acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that you could be wrong.
That is stagnation: the antithesis to spirituality and growth.
No, I can absolutely acknowledge that fantasy could be mysticism. But your question did not involve the fact that fantasies may come true, what could be proven historically. So, do you imply that fantasies are always untrue, therefore mystics are always wrong ? Or am I implying too much ?
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
#5490799 - 04/07/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said: Vernon Howard's SECRETS OF LIFE (R)
**********************************************************************
"As a healthy exercise, catch yourself indulging in a pointless imagination, and drop the scene."
Vernon Howard's SECRETS OF LIFE (R)
**********************************************************************
"Receiving facts that part of us does not want to receive is a sign of cosmic courage."
"Real understanding breaks through as we cease to block it with habitual and impulsive thought."
"You must go so far into self-doubt that you begin to doubt that there is a self to be doubtful about."
Your True Self knows the answer to every problem. When we are inwardly quiet, when we are ready to receive, it speaks. It can- not talk while we are talking. Nor can we hear it whenever we are listening to false counsel. Remember, your problem requires your answer. No one else's prefabricated solution will clear your mind. Although you must solve it, be cheered by the truth that you can solve it. It makes no difference whether the difficulty relates to business affairs or the making of a personal decision or what- ever. The True Self, when allowed to speak, tells you what to do."
"God has given you a certain amount of time on this earth to go into union with Him."
All quotes from Vernon Howard.
Never underestimate the power of the Swami. He understood the joker, and maintained the profile needed for this place.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490839 - 04/07/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I reached self-illumination with imagination itself. I began to have fantasies of a cosmic Mystery and its possibilities before She began to reveal Herself through manifestation; making my fantasy a living reality. I can't really answer your question because it's irrational from my point of view (I've seen what I've seen ) It would be the same if I asked you if you would assume a conscious-stance if I presented to you evidence of a unified Mystery. Even with such information, I'd wager unless you didn't obtain that knowledge through the vehicle of imagination and desire, it would be impossible to relate with or identify with. Mystery absorbs people through their personalities.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5490952 - 04/07/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I for one chose to live 'as if' the Experience had its roots in 'God' as certain metaphysical traditions have described It.
So, rather than seeking Truth, you settle for dogma which may or may not be Truth.
Again, I see in this only stagnation, not spirituality and growth. Growth requires one not to set roots in ideas but to remain agile and willing to change in the light of new information.
Dude...Read the post again...slow-w-w-ly. The Experience is Experience - NOT dogma. You are, well, obsessed with the dogma of your own view. Man... you can't even read an honest and well thought out description of someone's own experience. Why do you think I have even taken the time to write this response to you? Huh? To convert you to my perspective? Ridiculous. I am attempting to provide as much clarity and simplicity as I can muster to answer your pseudo serious inquiry. I should have known by your perjorative and condescending call for "Mystic Heads," which I am big enough to overlook, but I will henceforth view all of your pseudo seriousness as little more than baiting. You must be really bored with your life. Certainly you cannot be a happy camper. Fulfilled, self-actualizing (B-Cognizing) individuals do not even think about behaving as you do. You really ought to feel some shame, and I really need to adjust my optimism and waste no more valuable time with the likes of you. And you call Me stagnant?! You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective and you can't even read my response correctly without returning an insult! An insult, when all you are able to do is have a monologue with your own crippled perspective? Pathetic.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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You must be really bored with your life. Certainly you cannot be a happy camper. Fulfilled, self-actualizing (B-Cognizing) individuals do not even think about behaving as you do. You really ought to feel some shame, and I really need to adjust my optimism and waste no more valuable time with the likes of you. And you call Me stagnant?! You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective and you can't even read my response correctly without returning an insult! An insult, when all you are able to do is have a monologue with your own crippled perspective? Pathetic.
One sure sign that your beliefs are wanting is when you find yourself getting upset at them being questioned and launching ad hominems at the questioner. 
You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective
I'm unwilling to acquire a perspective that is founded in fantasy. There's a difference. Substantiate the perspective, and I'll acquire it immediately.
That's the difference between you and me, Markos: I'm willing to say I am wrong and to change my mind if someone shows me more than cheap talk about mysticism.
You, by your own admission, will not even concede any possibility that you may be wrong. That's why I call you stagnant.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/07/06 09:05 PM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5491092 - 04/07/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Huh, you called me stagnant as well. But I overlooked it, and I hopefully made clear, that my answer had nothing to do with that concept at all, unless you will declare your point, that fantasies are utterly BS. I think this would start a new thread
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5491240 - 04/07/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If I was shown concrete irrefutable evidence of anything, it would strike me as foolish not to change my view of reality accordingly.
I'm unwilling to acquire a perspective that is founded in fantasy.
Okay, could you please define what you consider mysticism to be? Because as I know it, it is certainly not founded in fantasy, yet as you know it, it certainly seems to be.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: dblaney]
#5491263 - 04/07/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Merriam-Webster's most apropos definition is: vague speculation : a belief without sound basis
If it can't be detected in any way whatsoever other than in your own mind, I call it mysticism/fantasy/magic/mumbo-jumbo.
Note that I don't say mysticism doesn't exist, but neither do I say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. Both are substantiated by the same quantity and quality of evidence.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5491281 - 04/07/06 10:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If it can't be detected in any way whatsoever other than in your own mind, I call it mysticism/fantasy/magic/mumbo-jumbo.
So then are you rejecting essentially all empirical thought? Tell me how else one can perceive reality if not through your own mind?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: dblaney]
#5491287 - 04/07/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: So then are you rejecting essentially all empirical thought? Tell me how else one can perceive reality if not through your own mind?
I don't think it is a question of the nature of one's perceptions; in fact, it is a question of one's conclusions in regards to one's perceptions. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5491333 - 04/07/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ah, okay.
I view mysticism in this regard: it asks the question Is there an eternal Reality? Many of the answers given by sages and seers follow extremely coherent and logical frameworks that require absolutely no faith or belief in ANYTHING and furthermore invite you to test out what they say for yourself.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5491742 - 04/08/06 01:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dip, do you really want to be calling other peoples growth stagnant, when you have been posting the same mysticism criticisms for years?
How has doing that for years shifted your your personal growth into a higher/deeper understanding that serves you, from out of it's stagnation?
You say you like to play fair so play fair.
Isn't going into hypotheticals going into imagination and fantasy?
Ironic how you have to ask members to use their imagination to prove imagination is fantasy and expect to get a result that isn't pure fantasy. I thought fantasy had no logical or practical value to you so why ask for an answer derived from imagination?
The use of imagination portion of the brain isn't going anywhere. It has a use and constructive purpose for our growth. We use it to visualize ideas before we set them into clay, contemplate possibilities or consequences when making choices, to create life with in essence, figuratively and literally.
The abstract and concrete are two different planes of existence. Neither will validate the other on its own turf. The concrete is only validated by the laws of the concrete and the abstract is only validated by the laws of the abstract.
What you are attempting to do is like taking a Picasso abstract of a human and saying it doesn't match what we can verify humans actually look like in physical reality. So you conclude, it is a fake/false/misleading representation of the truth of concrete reality and just threw a $400,000 painting out of your window. 
The abstract has value and meaning through personal interpretation and subjective personal experience for some, even if it was to be found to be generated from a physical source. Are you ever going to accept that?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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So why is astrology, alchemy, and metaphysics not a course in college? Is it that these have been found to be useless portrayal's of the imagination linked with fantasy, or are the professors too short-sighted?
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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Darkcloud
tiwkcuFtsilihiN


Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 1,331
Loc: USA
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5492011 - 04/08/06 05:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The fact that the "Mysticheads" here can't answer a simple yes or no question kinda makes me think they truly are delusional. You know, without the "half full, hall empty" psuedo answers that are coming out. Not that I'm against mysticism, but I think Diploid just unconsciously proved one of his points.
The question is basically: "Would you give up your mystical beliefs if all mysticism was PROVEN to be false beyond ALL doubt? It doesn't matter if it CAN or CAN'T theoretically be done, it's just asking YES or NO. So...would you?"
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Darkcloud
tiwkcuFtsilihiN


Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 1,331
Loc: USA
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5492015 - 04/08/06 05:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So, my answer would be: Yes.
I am only looking for the truth whether I like what the final answer is or not. If all mysticism were PROVEN false, then I would give up my attachments to it (although I don't have many).
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Darkcloud]
#5492017 - 04/08/06 05:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If it would be proven to be completely false, inaccurate and would not have any informational value in it, I would agree (as I said before). But if you wish me to explain, why that never happens, I will start a new thread.
So why discuss an obviously rational false hypothesis ?
I will turn the question around, to show the paradox:
To all matter-heads: "Would you call mystical beliefs completely true, if there is one (former) mystery, which can be proven (becoming) true (explained in the way of the belief) beyond ALL doubt ?"
Edited by BlueCoyote (04/08/06 06:02 AM)
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Darkcloud]
#5492029 - 04/08/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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To name call and call people "delusional"... what brought that on? I'm just wondering where all this aggression is coming from. You guys even have a slur now. As for the question... it's nothing special. It's just using fastistic hypotheticals to linguistically hold someone up at gun point. It's a cheap, childish debate tactic, and it can be used from virtually any point of view. It's not really original either.
Anyway, this Mystic Head needs to make some sunny side up eggs A happy Om to you
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
Edited by Basilides (04/08/06 06:23 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5492369 - 04/08/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am actually "upset" at myself for responding to you again. You do not have the discernment for interior conditions. You may have your own idiosyncratic understanding about words like "fantasy," or "wish fulfillment," both of which are understood by most people to be Freudian terms, so at least I have a grasp of where your trying to come from. The silly words you use like "mumbo-jumbo" does have an origin in a perjorative mockery of some tribal language (just like the word 'gibberish' derives from ignorant people mocking the Arabic alchemist al Jabir). However, you do not have any real conceptual leg to stand on over and against mysticism. You have neither an academic or an experiential frame of reference that is capable of understanding the nature of mystical religious experience. I do not have the ability to understand advanced mathematical constructs like String Theory, but you won't hear me calling mathematicians crackpots or accusing them of 'gibberish' because I just don't get it. THAT is the difference between you and me.
I can certainly admit that I'm wrong, but I am not 'wrong' when I have been fortunate enough to have had some life-enhancing experiences of a mystical nature, and some non-comprehending individual simply proclaims that 'I' couldn't possibly have such an experience because he doesn't know what it is! MY experiences do not fit into your range of experiences, and because YOU haven't had such an experience, you arrogantly deny that the same exists - as if YOU are the standard by which the range of human experiences are to be measured. You are inflated to an extreme degree because in your limited world view you think that you can accurately assess another individual's inner world. Sorry, but you just don't have any credibility to be discerning the qualitative nature of my Experience. You don't know a Freudian 'construct' (or what he based his concepts on) from the phenomenology of mystical experience - it's all just vague - to YOU.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5492686 - 04/08/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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To all matter-heads:
It's Science Head, not Matter Head. 
"Would you call mystical beliefs completely true, if there is one (former) mystery, which can be proven (becoming) true (explained in the way of the belief) beyond ALL doubt ?"
Yes, in an instant. Prove some mystical thing (telepathy, astral projection, remote viewing, telekinesis, [fill in the blank], and I will change my stance immediately. It would be stagnation and dogma to do otherwise.
Do you not see me here for years asking questions and putting forth my science-head ideas for the very purpose of inviting critique to see if I may be wrong? I'm not here trying to convince anyone. I'm trying to burn away nonsense in the crucible of philosophic discussion to get at the truth, which I will accept, whatever it may be.
I find this a next to impossible task as every time I say something that threatens a mystic head's beliefs, rather than address the holes in their beliefs or answer my simple questions directly and honestly, they attack me with ad hominems that have nothing to do with the thing we're discussing.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/08/06 12:31 PM)
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5492717 - 04/08/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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jest count the number of times a poster sez "you" in there post and then you can tell if they our really responding or atacking.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
#5492719 - 04/08/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said:
prayer study fails and beleivers still offen up a bogis exsplanation as too why it failed.
there are plenty of studies which show that prayer works, though.
without faith you confine yourself to only living one life, this individual life, and you limit yourself to only the fleeting pleasures of the world.
with faith you can live this life, live it as best and as fulfillingly as you can, and then just hopefully our faith and hope payed off. i do not think it foolish for people to believe in things, after the experience i had on DXM last night I see just why exactly we HAVE to believe in things! it's the only way to stay sane.
but ah you must be very sure..... very careful, that what you believe in is the best thing for you, helps you rather than hurts. the Buddha was ascetic for a long while..... starved almost to death..... then realized the simple way of the middle path. The middle path. You live your life. You live it peacefully..... and if you have reason to believe in things then you do.
But you have to try and figure out how to be fulfilled with God/Christ/Buddha Nature RIGHT NOW in THIS LIFETIME it's important to strive for fulfillment, and maybe to the atheist all that means is you find a way to feel HAPPY and peaceful consistently.... but....
to shun all of it as nonsense is nonsense to begin with you know? that's my take.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (04/08/06 12:14 PM)
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: leery11]
#5492724 - 04/08/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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half "show" that it works and half "show" that it duzn't - jest like any chance occurance.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
#5492748 - 04/08/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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but placebos work......... 30-40% of the effects of any given medical drug are believed to be placebo.
so what do we make of this? Of course it doesn't work for everyone! But for those who take it and really want to improve and embrace it fully, the placebo works for them, they take a sugar pill and it cures their headache...........
the issue with prayer is you cannot, necessarily, circumvent your karma, you won't necessarily spontaneously heal from cancer, but that's not to say that you can't. Because it certainly happens. It's not so much "prayer" it's just, healing. Humans are capable of miraculous healing, some people achieve it through prayer, some through meditation or energy channeling, some just say "hey i'm gonna get better!" and they do.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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You have neither an academic or an experiential frame of reference that is capable of understanding the nature of mystical religious experience
This isn't relevant. I don't need a seminary education to ask for a demonstration of something supernatural. I've sought this from books, experimentation, Santeros, Catholics, Satanists, Occultists, Wiccans, and others. Indeed, I've even asked YOU for this, but you refused and summarily dismissed me.
I do not have the ability to understand advanced mathematical constructs like String Theory, but you won't hear me calling mathematicians crackpots or accusing them of 'gibberish' because I just don't get it.
But you can see all around you the benefits of science. You read this message with science. You drive a car invented by science. When you get sick, you go to an applied scientist (a doctor) for help. You use drugs invented by science to heal you.
THAT is why you cannot deny science. You don't have to understand it to see hard, irrefutable evidence of it all around you. Meanwhile, when I look for mysticism, all I see are frauds and charlatans with TV shows and telephone hot lines, every one of which fails miserably when asked for one single simple irrefutable demonstration instead cheap talk, as indeed you did when I asked you.
I can certainly admit that I'm wrong, but I am not 'wrong'
Of course. You can't possibly be wrong.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: psyka]
#5493082 - 04/08/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: So why is astrology, alchemy, and metaphysics not a course in college? Is it that these have been found to be useless portrayal's of the imagination linked with fantasy, or are the professors too short-sighted?
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? This topic is not about college career choices. On a side note, did you notice the topics to be discussed at the science conference on consciousness? Should I bold some of them for you so you can see what science finds worthy of exploring? 
Diploid, how can you possibly call all people with an personal interest in "mysticism" charlatans and frauds in such a negative light? How long have you come to know most of us on -line?
You know I am a stay at home mom and what my parenting values are. I don't run a psychic hot line. I do nothing "mystical" to draw income from people.
You know Markos is employed by the Florida state of education and counsels teen agers. He doesn't run a psychic hot line. He is paid by the government.
You know paradigm, just graduated from college. You know, he doesn't run a psychic hot line.
You know, Blue works in the technology field. Blue doesn't run a psychic hot line.
I think you get my point and thats why many of us, don't understand why you call all people with a personal interest in "mysticism" frauds and charlatans. That's a LIE diploid and the evidence to it being a LIE, has been in front of your scientific head all along here.
None of us make a living fraudulently scamming people out of their money. It's delusional to beleive so.
The way I see it, you are trying to make something appear to be something its not.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493118 - 04/08/06 01:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Isn't going into hypotheticals going into imagination and fantasy?

Quote:
Diploid said: Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all logic is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them?
Serious question.
Same question, same ramifications. I don't understand what the purpose of posing such a question is beyond simple provocation.
If this is this, would you accept that this is this? 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5493172 - 04/08/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If this is this, would you accept that this is this?
exactly how i feel. i really don't know how to respond to this question. i think if any of us here were shown concrete irrefutable evidence of something, we would accept it. that is so obvious that people are responding in a way that attempts to show why this question isn't meaningful or relevant.
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Deviate]
#5493208 - 04/08/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
i think if any of us here were shown concrete irrefutable evidence of something, we would accept it.
really? how many times must mystical observations/claims be proved false? has the lack of a predicted end of the world; planet arriving; hoax exposed; ever changed a beleivers mind? all it engenders is spin and excuse making.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
#5493217 - 04/08/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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really? how many times must mystical observations/claims be proved false? has the lack of a predicted end of the world; planet arriving; hoax exposed; ever changed a beleivers mind? all it engenders is spin and excuse making.
absolutely. assuming anyone here believed the world was going to end at a certain time, i am willing to wager that when it didn't, they accepted the fact that they were wrong. they did not go around proclaiming the world had ended.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493241 - 04/08/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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This link about a coincidence regarding my father's original Polaroid-Land camera, with original film, that I used is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT thing than what we are currently discussing. That event has nothing, repeat, nothing to do with mysticism. If anything at all, it a synchronicity which is what Jung described as a "psychoid" process - one which involves a co-incidence of inner psychic processes and outer material events. There is no empirical evidence for you to observe, and moreover, you are not someone who I would invite into my home, which is the outer manifestation of my inner life. You are careless to reckless with my inner life as reproduced virtually on this website, so why would I want to bring your manifest physical presence into our home? Get real.
Secondly, where the HELL did you ever get the idea that I was somehow opposed to science? That is just plain stupid. I was a young scientist before I ever attended college where I began studies for medicine. I owned a Helium-Neon LASER and a holography lab in 1970 when most people didn't know what a LASER was. I was studying LASERs 3 years after it was invented, reading Scientific American in the 5th grade and trying to get my father to build a working ruby LASER when I was in the 6th grade from plans in a Popular Science Magazine that I still have.
My parents supplied me with a home lab from the 5th grade on which became more and more sophisticated in time.

Here's my lab in the 6th grade and by 12th grade, plus LASER setup.
I'm a bit older now and made discoveries in my psyche much the way ancient alchemists did by wonderment at purely physical phenomena. In 7th grade, while distilling Bromine in a Perfect Brand 250 ml retort into a a small Florence flask receiver (from Sulfuric Acid and Potassium Bromide - see first pic at left), the wonderment of crimson vapors appearing above a clear solution, darkening, rising, reddening, condensing, liquifying, later connected me to some of the psychological processes that the alchemists were projecting into the physical phenomena. Then I read Jung. There was a young person focused exclusively on outer physical phenomenon, then psychedelics brought the focus inward in such a manner as to be able to make the psyche itself an object of observation. This was the point where I left the study of hard science and began a philosophical inquiry that led me to theology and then to psychology proper.
You simply fail to see or refuse to see what I have endeavored to illustrate to you. I am well aware of the empirical which surrounds me. The senses and rational interpretation of sensory data does not require faith. It is the valuation of the physical (hylic) domain as THAT which is Ultimately Real which puts us at odds. My faith is in the spiritual domain, I am not a materialist any more. I understand, with limitations, the domain that Aristotle symbolizes philosophically, but I have become a Platonist, which takes me from the physical, inwardly through the psychic and eventually to the spiritual which is a domain that can only be alluded to. One can't catch many atoms with a fish next, and one cannot catch (comprehend) the spiritual (transrational, transcendental) with the rational mind. That does not mean the transcendental does not exist. You're trying to see atoms with a light microscope.
Lastly, my talk isn't cheap. It's at least $100.00 per 50 minutes, and that's a bargain because it's an avocation rather than a vocation. My fee is bound to go up because my time is valuable. Consider that when you consider how much time I'm taking to show YOU something.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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salary = spiritual worth? what is the relevance besides ego? everyone here contributes freely of their time and as all have roughly the same lifespan than each moment is equally preshus to all.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Deviate]
#5493298 - 04/08/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thats what I was just going to reply! 
Temptress was also trying to make something out to look like something that has basis in objective reality when in fact it doesn't.
Indeed, assuming anyone believed the world was going to end in 2000, certainly doesn't any more if they are still alive. Find one person alive today who believes the world ended in the year 2000.
Some people disillusioned with our governments magically forseeing abilities, "believed" Bush would find WMD in Iraq before the invasion. He didn't find any. Now they know, our government acted on either false evidence or that the reason for invasion was a hoax.
Find ONE human being who believed Bush would find them, that NOW believes they were found.
Thats where your argument is unfounded in an objective reality base.
Now lets look at where its also meaningless.
One person caught selling synthetic fur as real fur, doesn't now mean everyone selling fur is automatically guilty of selling synthetic fur as well.
It makes no rational or logical sense to make such broad assumptions.
Some people believed that if they studied hard in school, they would get a college degree and make a decent living. That belief came to prove true for some and not others.
Was it or was it not, a false belief for everyone to have, because it proved false for a few?
Put on your critical thinking skills cap. 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Temptress]
#5493334 - 04/08/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Did you bother to notice exactly what remark those words were a response to? There is nothing "cheap" about the words that come from me, and the use of a literary device to render the word in a mercenary way was just that - a literary device. I don't like being called a liar because it is an offence against Truth, which is what I endeavor to be conformed to.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5493473 - 04/08/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't understand what the purpose of posing such a question is beyond simple provocation.
Its purpose is to demonstrate how mystic heads are dead-set in their ways and will not allow that mysticism may be a myth, even in principle.
I think it succeeded at that.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/08/06 04:17 PM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493512 - 04/08/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think you are mixing terms here. Existence and truth. Mysticism as a myth ? Mysticism exists, but it has not to be true exclusively, even there are cases, where fantasies hit the nail, especially in cases of speculations, which are part of science, too.
I will keep the term matter-heads
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Deviate]
#5493517 - 04/08/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i am willing to wager that when it didn't, they accepted the fact
Check out how many people still buy into Uri Geller's bullshit despite him having been embarrassingly exposed as a fraud on the Johnny Carson show years ago.
Check out how many people still call psychic hot-lines despite Ms. Cleo being disgraced and exposed as a fraud.
Check out how many millions of dollar Sylvia Brown hauls in year after year despite her refusal to submit to a simple test of her powers that she agreed to back in the 90s.
Check out how many True Believers still attend (and pay for admission) reverend Peter Popoff's prayer meetings by the hundreds of thousands even though he was exposed as a hoax by 'reading minds' using an accomplice with a radio transmitter and a tiny receiver in his ear.
Check out how many people here claim telekinesis, astral projection, telepathy, dawsing for water, and aura seeing, yet none will go beyond cheap talk and submit to a simple test of their claim.
Check out how many mystic heads have predicted the end of the world throughout history and when it didn't happen, not only did they not admit they were wrong but issued another end of the world prediction on another date, and another, and another...
Witness how many are currently bracing for yet another end of the world in 2012, many of them Shroomerites.
--> Clicky <--
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/08/06 04:22 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493519 - 04/08/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Myths can be mystical, but mysticism is not mythical. Reference Joseph Campbell and Evelyn Underhill for mythical and mystical, respectively, for accurate definitions of the words.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
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Fantasy is a suitable proxy for accessing that which is just out of reach.
The only problems with it are keeping context clear of why you are using the proxy, and tehn feeling you need to defend the tenuous link.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493543 - 04/08/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It's purpose is to demonstrate how mystic heads are dead-set in their ways and will not allow that mysticism may be a myth, even in principle.
Well, then, they weren't presented with irrefutable evidence agansit their beliefs, now where they? If it was irrefutable, they would have no choice. 
Within an illogical mind, a refutation does not need to conform to logic in order for it to be a successful refute, within the context of that mind. You didn't provide for them irrefutable evidence if they continue to believe in it. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: redgreenvines]
#5493553 - 04/08/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Check out how many people still buy into Uri Geller's bullshit despite him having been embarrassingly exposed as a fraud on the Johnny Carson show years ago.
Check out how many people still call psychic hot-lines despite Ms. Cleo being disgraced and exposed as a fraud.
Check out how many millions of dollar Sylvia Brown hauls in year after year despite her refusal to submit to a simple test of her powers that she agreed to back in the 90s.
Check out how many True Believers still attend (and pay for admission) reverend Peter Popoff's prayer meetings by the hundreds of thousands even though he was exposed as a hoax by 'reading minds' using an accomplice with a radio transmitter and a tiny receiver in his ear.
Check out how many mystic heads have predicted the end of the world throughout history and when it didn't happen, not only did they not admit they were wrong but issued another end of the world prediction on another date, and another, and another...
Witness how many are currently bracing for yet another end of the world in 2012, many of them Shroomerites.
find me one person here who, when the world did not end according to their prediction, maintained that the world had ended. and wouldn't issuing another world ending prediction necessitate admitting the first one was in error? how could you predict the end of a world that no longer existed?
Edited by Deviate (04/08/06 04:13 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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This link about a coincidence regarding my father's original Polaroid-Land camera, with original film
That's not how you put it forth.
You more-than-implied that the pentagram you drew on the floor could not be photographed despite your repeated attempts. It even struck me as similar to the notion that vampires' reflection in mirrors cannot be seen. You were very matter-of-fact about it.
I asked for a demonstration. A demonstration that would have instantly and forever changed my perspective.
You refused.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/08/06 04:54 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5493628 - 04/08/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, then, they weren't presented with irrefutable evidence agansit their beliefs, now where they?
I never said they were. I asked them to reach out and imagine being presented with that evidence, then state their reaction. It's a hypothetical question. Are you aware that such questions are a basic tool of philosophical discussion?
If it was irrefutable, they would have no choice.
Then why hasn't any mystic head so far in this thread simply said that? Why all the twisting and contorting rather than a straight-up direct answer?
I think it's because mystic heads are not intellectually honest. They go with anything that affirms their belief system, and pooh pooh anything that doesn't. An intellectually honest person has no attachment to their beliefs and changes them on a dime when new information comes along.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/10/06 05:35 PM)
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Quoiyaien
><<<<0>>>><


Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 1,409
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493645 - 04/08/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If evidence was shown to me that contradicted my beliefs, my beliefs would change. However, in a purely experiential context, the experience ramains the same, only the interpretation is altered. I dont really have beliefs, I simpy have experience. I have thoughts, ideas, theories, plans, and interpretations, but they are far from being called beliefs. To me, a belief is something that one takes as "the way it is" limiting all future experinces to be viewed from within the confines of that belief. A born-again christian once told me that all dinosaur bones were placed here by God to test the faith of his followers. Perfect example of beliefs limiting ones world view. She even went on to say that carbon dating is flawed because it didnt fit into her belief system.
If I see red, I believe red. If I see sky, I believe in the sky. Thought I am not falling into that "if I cant see it, I dont believe it camp" because that also falls into the category of a belief system. I simply wont dismiss anything unless it is proven with solid "concrete" evidence that it doesnt exist. I also dont hold any firm convictions about the nature of reality and it constituents, like life, perception, states of being, unexplainable phenomena etc...
Peace
Edited by Quoiyaien (04/08/06 04:52 PM)
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493651 - 04/08/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I for one chose to live 'as if' the Experience had its roots in 'God' as certain metaphysical traditions have described It.
So, rather than seeking Truth, you settle for dogma which may or may not be Truth.
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493658 - 04/08/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Then why hasn't any mystic head so far in this thread simply said that? Why all the twisting and contorting rather than a straight-up direct answer?
they have. if i were presented with proof of something of course i would believe it. i only became a "mystic head" because i was presented with irrefutable evidence to the point where i would be irrational to disreguard it. and like Quoiyaien i'm not talking about proof of any specific interpretation, im talking about being presented with new experiential information.
Edited by Deviate (04/08/06 04:41 PM)
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493666 - 04/08/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is sloppy speculation diploid.
Quote:
Check out how many people still buy into Uri Geller's bullshit despite him having been embarrassingly exposed as a fraud on the Johnny Carson show years ago.
Did you consider that many who may believe in him, have never seen or heard of his expose on that show? Find one who you know for a fact that saw it and still believe.
You also have shown no evidence that people still entertained by him, are so , because they believe what he does is magical and not for entertainment value only. Siegfried and Roy and David Copperfield make a shit-load off of entertaining people with illusions. The people know they are illusions and enjoy the entertainment value anyway.
Quote:
Check out how many people still call psychic hot-lines despite Ms. Cleo being disgraced and exposed as a fraud.
You are misleading readers from the truth diploid. Ms Cleo was brought up on fraud charges for over and double charging peoples phone bills, not for being a bad psychic. She never even answered the phones of her hot line business. Again, her adds clearly state on the bottom, for entertainment only.
You have not shown any evidence that people who call her hot-line are not doing so for entertainment only either.
Quote:
Check out how many millions of dollar Sylvia Brown haul in year after year despite her refusal to submit to a simple test of her powers that she agreed to back in the 90s.
Apparently, her accepting to take some challenge has no relevance to their interest in her. Perhaps they see her as entertainment as well.
Speculation
Quote:
Check out how many True Believers still attend (and pay for admission) reverend Peter Popoff's prayer meetings by the hundreds of thousands even though he was exposed as a hoax by 'reading minds' using an accomplice with a radio transmitter and a tiny receiver in his ear.
Prove they were there because they believed he could read minds in the first place. Some people like to pray in groups and support those who sponsor group prayer for them. Maybe if they did believe, they don't now, forgave him, and just care to keep with the group prayer.
You have no proof that anyone who first believed he was reading minds still holds that belief.
Speculation.
Quote:
Check out how many mystic heads have predicted the end of the world throughout history and when it didn't happen, not only did they not admit they were wrong but issued another end of the world prediction on another date, and another, and another...
My aunt thought it was going to end in 2000. She gladly admitted she was wrong. How do you know all the people who ever believed in a prophecy, to know if they admitted their belief was invalid or not. You have shown zero proof of that.
So people start new ones. So what if people choose to believe in them. Maybes its for entertainment purposes too. They are not invalid until after they pass without event.
I have proof of someone doing that. You once predicted that I would not reply to one of replies in a thread. I did and I proved you wrong and you never admitted it. 
Quote:
Witness how many are currently bracing for yet another end of the world in 2012, many of them Shroomerites.
I've read through most of the 2012 threads since I have been here and never read anyone who thinks the world is going to end. All I have read is people saying, its the end of a calender, or the end of a certain way of life, not life itself.
Dooms dayers are just people who live in fear and clinical depression or love a good drama. Remember the hoax put on here by the staff for April fools. You even got in on that one.
Please do not confuse depressed fear filled dooms dayers with ALL mystic minded people.
I think I can guarantee you that no one who has replied in this thread thinks the world is going to end anytime within the next century nor do they worry about it.
Diploid, all your thread has succeeded in proving is that you yourself use your imagination to speculate on what you want to believe is true of people you know and don't even know.
You yourself believe in your speculative fantasies and maybe you keep posting this stuff as if its the truth, in a subconscious attempt to show your conscious mind how you are stagnating your own growth and development by believing in fantasies.
MS. Cleo was indited for billing fraud, not for being a fake psychic. Her ads ran runners that said the services her hot line business provided were for entertainment purposes only. You have no proof, that ALL current callers are not calling to entertain themselves.
Any belief otherwise is all in your imagination or an attempt to get members here to beleive stuff that isn't true.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Diploid
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Deviate]
#5493699 - 04/08/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Stating that you would accept the evidence, then in the same breath attaching the caveat that such evidence cannot exist says only that you would not accept the evidence in principle.
And we're back where we started: mystics will not uncling themselves from their beliefs no matter what; not even for the purpose of a hypothetical discussion.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Again, her adds clearly state on the bottom, for entertainment only.
You have not shown any evidence that people who call her hot-line are not doing so for entertainment only either.
You sound like a lawyer squirming around with technicalities rather than a seeker of Truth.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493728 - 04/08/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, back to where it started, your asking people to use their imaginations to serve as evidence of something.
Is that what you do when you slip into the fantasy of believing Ms Cleo was indited on psychic claim fraud charges and not the truth of billing fraud regarding her entertainment only business?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Cherk
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493734 - 04/08/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is a lot of hocus pocus misleading garbage out there.
There are also moments when divinity intercedes with our existence. If you have never experienced this I can understand your lack of belief.
I have mixed feelings about posting this on the web, perhaps I shall take it down in a few days.
When I was in kindergarden I made a macaroni art piece of the crucifix on construction paper. After completion I wrote To: God From: Ryan on the art-work. That night I placed the art against a wall in my bedroom and as I layed in bed I said a prayer. Asking god to accept my gift and to take it from me.
I awoke the next morning to discover that the art was no longer.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Posts: 7,469
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493756 - 04/08/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Again, her adds clearly state on the bottom, for entertainment only.
You have not shown any evidence that people who call her hot-line are not doing so for entertainment only either.
You sound like a lawyer squirming around with technicalities rather than a seeker of Truth.
No need to squirm and I am a truth seeker. The facts and truth of Ms Cleos indictment are clear in black and white. She comitted billing fraud plain and simple. The information on it is easy for all to find. I searched for the truth of the matter and accepted it. You are still in denial of it believing what you want to beleive.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Diploid
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Registered: 01/09/03
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Ms. Cleo's psychic powers failed to see the cops coming to arrest her. Funny that, eh?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493769 - 04/08/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I awoke the next morning to discover that the art was no longer.
Lots of my baby teeth vanished in the night and were replaced by a dollar, but I don't believe the Tooth Fairy did it.
There are a million rational explanations for where your art went. Why pick the most highly unlikely one over the others?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493780 - 04/08/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It would be funny if she ever claimed to have legitimate psychic abilities. All of her advertisement ads ran the disclaimer of entertainment only. 
From what I remember reading, the phone companies reimbursed everyone who made complaints about over charges.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Cherk
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493781 - 04/08/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Because I know. My parents did not take it, nor did my sister. No one else lives in our house.
p.s it is not unlikely, it happened for a reason. The event has proven to be a big piece of my spiritual development.
--------------------
I have considered such matters. SIKE
Edited by Smoker For Peace (04/08/06 05:12 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
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It would be funny if she ever claimed to have legitimate psychic abilities. All of her advertisement ads ran the disclaimer of entertainment only.
Yeah, and the Magic Mushroom spores sold by the Shroomery's sponsors are for microscopy educational purposes only.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Quoiyaien
><<<<0>>>><


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493805 - 04/08/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smoker For Peace said: Because I know. My parents did not take it, nor did my sister. No one else lives in our house.
p.s it is not unlikely, it happened for a reason. The event has proven to be a big piece of my spiritual development.
I am just curious, are you keeping yourself open to other possibilities or are you simply accepting it as the way it is? I see no problem with your idea of where it went as it helped in your spiritual quest. But can you admit, that there might be another explanation?
Peace
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Cherk
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Quoiyaien]
#5493820 - 04/08/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are other explantions, but they are not true.
--------------------
I have considered such matters. SIKE
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493828 - 04/08/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It is still hard for us to distinguish between 'valuable' mysticism and dismissible or dangerous mysticism. That is, because there is much subjectivity in 'what is valuable' for oneself. But I, for my perspective, split it like that:
about 25% dangerous bullshit, to rip off and misuse people about 50% what will serve the one and is for no value for the other about 25% what is real value for everyone, or proved occurrence (things which make their way into the 'objectively proved humanoid realm' )
That says, we should have to clear up the question you imposed, that all mysticism is false. That is (of course) not so, and I truly dishonor those people, too, who make mysticism as incredible itself, by intentionally ripping off people with lies, or make use of them in some selfish dishonest ways.
But to not see the truth embedded in the whole, is like cleaning all rubbish away, overseeing the sparkling diamond in it. The goal is, to find the diamond inside the rubbish.
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Quoiyaien
><<<<0>>>><


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493836 - 04/08/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smoker For Peace said: There are other explantions, but they are not true.
Cheers 
I admire your conviction 
Peace
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Temptress
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493846 - 04/08/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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what happened was a rat dragged it off and ate it - sorry
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493848 - 04/08/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I never said they were. I asked them to reach out and imagine being presented with that evidence, then state their reaction. It's a hypothetical question.
Quote:
Diploid said: I'm unwilling to acquire a perspective that is rooted in fantasy.
Its a question that relies on the imagination of a mind to fantasize about a possible situation that is not actually occuring. Based on your own statements, it is not a perspective that one should form, as it is founded in fantasy.
It might be a hypothetical situation, but it is also an extremely vauge question that can be directed towards anything. Imagine irrefutable evidence being presented to you that demonstrates that logic itself is baseless fantasy that is not grounded in reality. Same difference. I stand by my statement that is probably more of a provocation than anything else.
Quote:
Are you aware that such questions are a basic tool of philosophical discussion?
Hypothetical questions? Sure, but not without detailed context. Imagine that God materialized and kicked your dog. Is God behaving in a moral matter?
Imagine the philosophical musings that spring forth! 
Quote:
Then why hasn't any mystic head so far in this thread simply said that? Why all the twisting and contorting rather than a straight-up direct answer?
Which mystic heads are these? Twisting and contorting? I guess a variety of different responses from those who interpret with different perspectives who have employed their imaginations to answer an extremely vauge, undefined question is twisting and contorting, eh?
Do you mean to ask why someone hasn't simply, straight-up, directly replied with the only answer you can accept? You've already constructed your strawman, you might as well burn the fucker down, right?
Quote:
I think it's because mystic heads are not intellectually honest. They go with anything that affirms their belief system, and poo-poo anything that doesn't.
Ahhh, I see you found your lighter and that you were quick to follow through. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
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All of her advertisement ads ran the disclaimer of entertainment only.
That is the disclaimer that all "professional" psychics display in their ads - it's there for legal issues. They certainly need to put bread on their table [be it by telling banal guesses or outright lies to strangers] and don't want to be put out of business for false advertising. Similar to how all those "escorts" found in the yellow-pages are "really" just...escorts. 
I also know from personal experiences; from many a chat long ago in AOL [sidenote: I haven't used AOL in years now] chat rooms titled "Psychic chat" or something along those lines, that most people have a rather agnostic mentality in such matters - while some, are total full-blown believers without shadow of doubt. The agnostics are folks who are in doubt of their own mind and ability to know reality, and tentatively seek easy answers via mysticism - more specifically, psychics. Of course, often it is the case that if the psychic tells them what they want or expect to hear, then the more likely they will suspend their rational and critical judgment and blindly accept the mystic's espousements. Conversely, if they don't like or expect what they are hearing, then well, gee, it can't be true, now can it? So evident in their behavior is the common hit-and-miss agnosticism that plagues many people everywhere.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Diploid
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493863 - 04/08/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are other explantions, but they are not true.
Bingo!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Cherk
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493883 - 04/08/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ultimately we both come to the same conclusion. You believe one explanation while I believe another. Bingo!
--------------------
I have considered such matters. SIKE
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493902 - 04/08/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ultimately we both come to the same conclusion.
Nope. My beliefs are plastic and change in the face of new information. My 'conclusions' are all of the form: "it seems like this is how it is, subject to revision if I find new information".
From your responses, I can only gather that if tomorrow you find your artwork in a rat hole in the back yard half eaten, you'd bury it and continue to believe anyway.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Thats all beside the point Dip was trying to make reguarding people still beleiving in Pychics after being proven to have no ability.
Ms Cleo, never answered her own phone lines in the first place. There was nothing to disprove regarding her ability. The fraud she was indicted on commiting was in phone billing.
Of course there are people that beleive they have pyschic abilities and others beleive some people have them.
Thats not what this thread is about.
Its about, would you accept the truth if it was proven to you with concrete evidence, if it meant changing a beleif. Members were asked to go into their imaginations to answer that question to give diploid concrete evidence.
How did you miss that Skorp? Using imagination to get conrete evidence? How did you miss that?

edit- add on to the end.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/08/06 05:58 PM)
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Cherk
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493957 - 04/08/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Ultimately we both come to the same conclusion.
Nope. My beliefs are plastic and change in the face of new information. My 'conclusions' are all of the form: "it seems like this is how it is, subject to revision if I find new information".
From your responses, I can only gather that if tomorrow you find your artwork in a rat hole in the back yard half eaten, you'd bury it and continue to believe anyway.
But still, you believe one thing while I believe another. The conviction of our beliefs do not change what we currently believe.
--------------------
I have considered such matters. SIKE
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Diploid
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5493960 - 04/08/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Based on your own statements, it is not a perspective that one should form, as it is founded in fantasy.
I didn't ask anyone to accept the hypothetical as truth. I simply asked how they would react if it WAS true. Why is this an invalid question?
Imagine irrefutable evidence being presented to you that demonstrates that logic itself is baseless fantasy that is not grounded in reality
If someone managed to demonstrate that, then I would accept it. How they'd do that without using logic to demonstrate logic is false, I don't know, but not only am I open to the possibility, I would welcome it because it would radically change my world view and make for a very interesting future of contemplation.
Hypothetical questions? Sure, but not without detailed context.
Alright. Well, the way it's supposed to work in philosophical discussion is if I ask a question that is not narrow enough for you to answer simply and directly, you ask me to clarify the points you need narrowed, then you answer the question.
That's not what's happening here. The answers here so far are all some variation of "that evidence cannot exist, not even hypothetically".
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493964 - 04/08/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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But still, you believe one thing while I believe another. The conviction of our beliefs do not change what we currently believe.
So, if YOU DID find your artwork tomorrow half-eaten in a rat hole in the back yard, would you stop believing?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Cherk
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493979 - 04/08/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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My belief in god would remain, but my belief that a divine intercendance has taken place, yes.
--------------------
I have considered such matters. SIKE
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Diploid
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Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493993 - 04/08/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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My belief in god would remain, but my belief that a divine intercendance has taken place, yes.
So, even though the seminal event that caused you to begin to believe turns out to have been false, you continue to believe.
This rigidity of the mystic head mentality is exactly what I've been trying to expose here.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493997 - 04/08/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Smoker, I'm curious - of what religion are your parents of [or closest to]?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494001 - 04/08/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I didn't ask anyone to accept the hypothetical as truth. I simply asked how they would react if it WAS true. Why is this an invalid question?
You didn't say anything about truth, merely that of it not being a perspective that one should form. Creating a hypothetical situation is forming a perspective. 
Its not an invalid question, merely an extremely vauge, limited one. I guess it has effectively served to discover certain illogical conclusions in certain members, however (yourself included). 
Quote:
If someone managed to demonstrate that, then I would accept it. How they'd do that without using logic to demonstrate logic is false, I don't know, but not only am I open to the possibility, I would welcome it because it would radically change my world view and make for a very interesting future of contemplation.

Quote:
Alright. Well, the way it's supposed to work in philosophical discussion is if I ask a question that is not narrow enough for you to answer simply and directly, you ask me to clarify the points you need narrowed, then you answer the question.
In which manner would you clarify your original question? Without the nature of the evidence itself, I don't think it is possible to clarify the question.
Quote:
That's not what's happening here. The answers here so far are all some variation of "that evidence cannot exist, not even hypothetically".
Bullshit. You're only seeing what you want to see. I suggest you re-read these responses with an open mind.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494010 - 04/08/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i wood wership the rat as a manefestation of god - in other words i wood become a
*drum roll pleeze*
A RAT-IONALIST!
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494012 - 04/08/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I didn't ask anyone to accept the hypothetical as truth. I simply asked how they would react if it WAS true. Why is this an invalid question?
You accepted the hypothetical as truth and even made conclusions based on it. Look-
Quote:
FG said: I don't understand what the purpose of posing such a question is beyond simple provocation.
Diploid said:
Its purpose is to demonstrate how mystic heads are dead-set in their ways and will not allow that mysticism may be a myth, even in principle.
I think it succeeded at that.
How can you come to that conclusion based on hypothetical answers?
How they think they would act and how they really would is the difference between fantasy and objective reality. You made a demonstration you felt that was successful based on fantasy evidence, not concrete evidence.
It's meaningless and proves nothing.
Who is deluding themselves and casting illusions here?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Quoiyaien
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494022 - 04/08/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So if two minds believe two different things, which is true? Two sides to the same coin. The picture disappeared.
Heads: God took it Tails: There is a rational explanation, unknown, but rational. Coin: the picture disappeared
There could be an infinite number of possibilities to explain the pictures disappearance. So you could technically equate God with infinity therefore claiming God took the picture.
And what is rational anyway? It seems to me that rational is only what the mind is ready to accept based on a first handed experience of the collective consciousness. This view leaves very little room for intellectual evolution. The mystics view, however far out (whether it be true or not), helps push the boundaries on what is rationally acceptable to the masses by introducing an element of mystery, or open mindedness.
Peace
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Cherk
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somewhere between atheist and agnostic
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
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Diploid
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5494051 - 04/08/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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In which manner would you clarify your original question?
That depends on what part of it you're having trouble with. From my point of view, the question is simple and direct and doesn't need clarification. The request for clarification has to come from you. Tell me exactly what part is vague, and I'll try to address it.
Quote:
That's not what's happening here. The answers here so far are all some variation of "that evidence cannot exist, not even hypothetically".
Bullshit. You're only seeing what you want to see. I suggest you re-read these responses with an open mind.
OK. Here's a sampling:
that never will happen
I guess we'll never know
it would be impossible to relate with or identify with
You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective
using fastistic hypotheticals to linguistically hold someone up at gun point
this question isn't meaningful or relevant
It's a hypothetical question. Why is that so hard?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/08/06 06:28 PM)
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Cherk
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494054 - 04/08/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I never said that this was the event that caused me to start believing. Rather that it is not until recently that I have become aware of the pivotal role this event played in my spiritual path.
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
Edited by Smoker For Peace (04/08/06 06:31 PM)
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Cherk
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I do not want to decieve you though, for a few years my family attended a Presbyterian church because my parents enjoyed the teachings of morality accompanied with that faith. I also attended a program called Awanas at a Baptist church with my neighbor after his parents told my parents what a great program it was. To my best guess we stopped going to church when I reached the age of 7-9.
At the age of 13 I started on my current path of meditation and self realization through eastern thought.
I asked my parents the next day if they had removed the art from my room while I was sleeping and they had not. I should also mention that I did not tell my parents about my prayer until years later.
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
Edited by Smoker For Peace (04/08/06 07:02 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494201 - 04/08/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Stating that you would accept the evidence, then in the same breath attaching the caveat that such evidence cannot exist says only that you would not accept the evidence in principle.
And we're back where we started: mystics will not uncling themselves from their beliefs no matter what; not even for the purpose of a hypothetical discussion.
i never stated that such evidence could not exist and i said if "i were presented with proof of something of course i would believe it." is that what you want to hear? once again, if you were to beyond all reasonable doubt prove me wrong about something, i would change my mind and admit that i was wrong.
the reason i didn't think the question was meaningful is because i dont think there are many people here who would say that if something was proven to them BY THEIR OWN STANDARD OF PROOF (because i'm assuming thats what you mean by concrete irrefutable evidence) that they would continue to deny it. so what do you mean by concrete irrefutable evidence?
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fireworks_god
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494231 - 04/08/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: That depends on what part of it you're having trouble with. From my point of view, the question is simple and direct and doesn't need clarification. The request for clarification has to come from you. Tell me exactly what part is vague, and I'll try to address it.
The question itself is vauge. If you believed in this, and something demonstrated that this was false, would you accept that it was false?
Whoa, that is one detailed, explicit question! 
It isn't that much of a stretch to see this question as being loaded, considering the context in which it is asked. If you don't simply answer the question with a yes, you are contorting! If you answer it with a no, then you are close-minded, such a typical trait of a "mystic head". 
Quote:
It's a hypothetical question. Why is that so hard?
It isn't a simple hypothetical question. The question is being placed within a context and carries with it certain connotations, implied by your references to mysticism. That is what people are responding to.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Basilides
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494618 - 04/08/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Did you answer BlueCayote's question near the start of the thread?
You do realize that you're asking a spin-table question with your hypothetical. Anyone can throw it from any point of view.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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PhanTomCat
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Re: A Question For Someone With a Different Perspective Then I.... [Re: Diploid]
#5494781 - 04/08/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all mysticism is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them? . Serious question.
"""Mysticism is usually understood in a religious context, but as William James (1902) points out, mystical experiences may happen to anyone, regardless of religious training or inclinations. Such experiences can occur unbidden and without preparation at any time, and might not be understood as religious experiences at all. They may be interpreted, perhaps, as artistic, scientific, or other forms of inspiration, or even dismissed as psychological disturbances. """
Questioning if someone would abandon their subjective perspective of experience(s) based on someone else's "hypothetical concrete proof" perspective....?
That's the spirit....! Eeehhhh.... 
To answer your question, YES.... And I wish you good luck in finding evidence that disproves my subjective personal experience(s)....
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Basilides
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494803 - 04/08/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: My belief in god would remain, but my belief that a divine intercendance has taken place, yes.
So, even though the seminal event that caused you to begin to believe turns out to have been false, you continue to believe.
This rigidity of the mystic head mentality is exactly what I've been trying to expose here.
It's difficult to fathom the non-existence of something one has seen and experienced first-hand - and ultimately, has become.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5495247 - 04/09/06 12:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all mysticism is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them?
If someone gave me empiric evidence which was irrefutable, I'd quickly chastise them, lecturing on and on about how their hypothesis was improperly formed. 
I consider nihilist, absurdist, naturalist, empiricist, skeptic, and atheist to all be accurate labels of myself. Yet, I still venture into the 'realm of mysticism' and sometimes even religion (especially Eastern thought). The main difference I see between my perspective of mysticism and the perspective of the majority of those who call themselves 'mystics' is that I don't assume my 'mystical' experiences represent any external truth(s). I'll accept the possibility that these experiences do, in fact, have some divine significance and aren't merely hallucinations, but, unless it somehow is empirically testable, it still remains uncertain. It is neither scientifically refutable nor confirmable. I can only speculate whether mystical experiences represent truth or exactly the opposite (hallucination).
Thusforth, it seems silly to believe in something which I can only speculate about, no matter how truthful and coherent the speculation may seem or feel.
"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths of Spirits and conjurations of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them." -- Aleister Crowley
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: A Question For Someone With a Different Perspective Then I.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5495303 - 04/09/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"""Mysticism is usually understood in a religious context, but as William James (1902) points out, mystical experiences may happen to anyone, regardless of religious training or inclinations. Such experiences can occur unbidden and without preparation at any time, and might not be understood as religious experiences at all. They may be interpreted, perhaps, as artistic, scientific, or other forms of inspiration, or even dismissed as psychological disturbances. """
It is for this reason that it is important we all understand that psychology is not the same thing as philosophy. Psychologically, we have the capacity [for instance] to experience happiness [as well as a myriad of other emotions, as an emotional spectrum is pre-wired in human brains]. Philosophy, however, plays the role in determining what we choose to be happy about - i.e., it is our philosophical premises that dictate what we feel, think and act whereas it is our psychological wiring that supports the objective existence of such experiences.
This is why -regardless of the fact that we all work off of the same emotional spectrum- such an immense plurality of outcomes are possible.
Perhaps an analogy will help. Think of playing an instrument [instruments like a violin or guitar -for example- are pre-wired things], what matters is which strings you strum [and how], how and where you depress strings [a light pressure silences that string], and what pauses you may take in the process - all aimed at the production of beauty. So with the same guitar, I can play vastly different songs - think of the disparity between entire genres of music. Fireworks, I'm certain, can testify to this.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Diploid
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5495623 - 04/09/06 05:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The question itself is vauge. If you believed in this, and something demonstrated that this was false, would you accept that it was false?
I think it's excruciatingly clear, more so since you appear unable to tell me what part needs clarification.
Be that as it may, since you seem to understand what my intention was, how would YOU phrase the question?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Noetical
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5495634 - 04/09/06 05:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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dipppy do dah,
don't waste your time. you arre smart. do something constructive.
the end.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5495966 - 04/09/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You should re-read the entry for yourself. There was no "pentagram" on the floor. There was a magick circle on the floor, upon which was an altar with the magickal tools. The only pentagram was etched on a copper plate - the pentacle representing the Earth element. Actually, the circle had Christian words and symbols in Greek and Latin. No pentagram. Let's be accurate. And yes, I took those two black and white laboratory photos in my other post at the same time. Those came out, but the magic setup simply wouldn't. I thought that most interesting in a synchronistic way, which I mentioned was 'psychoid' and includes inner psychic as well as outer physical elements that produce 'an effect.' As do synchronicities in general, a sense of non-ordinary or paranormal reality is often suggested. I was suggesting the same. Happy to see that my writing can be so convincingly illustrative.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: redgreenvines]
#5495999 - 04/09/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fantasy in my inner life usually has to do with The Barbi Twins or some equally suitable objects. Fantasies for me are usually rooted in Yesod (Kabbalistically speaking) or the Svadhisthana (genital) chakra. Sometimes a third chakra (or a Hod-Netzach) realm of fantasy intrudes, but power motives are rare for me consciously or unconsciously. I DID fantasize about drugging the neighbor's barking dog, so that would be a power center motive.
However, religious experience is not fantasized, dreamed up. It does not take on form, which belongs to lower centers of consciousness that I speak about in terms of ancient Jewish or Hindu systems of psychology (Kabbala and Yoga). Religious experience of a mystical (versus a 'visionary') type arrives in states which do not include more form than perhaps 'sound' or 'light' but not imagery which would have a corresponding conceptual aspect.
Read Evelyn Underhill's works on mysticism, or her contemporaries R.M. Bucke or William James. The late 19th century had some great minds that have yet to be surpassed on the subject.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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more or less form, I don't think we need to legislate how much form constitutes someone else's religious experience. lots of form, and you can tell the formless is present by proxy, some form and perhaps the formless is present and deforming the vessel.
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