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Cherk
Fashionable


Registered: 10/25/02
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5493979 - 04/08/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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My belief in god would remain, but my belief that a divine intercendance has taken place, yes.
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493993 - 04/08/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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My belief in god would remain, but my belief that a divine intercendance has taken place, yes.
So, even though the seminal event that caused you to begin to believe turns out to have been false, you continue to believe.
This rigidity of the mystic head mentality is exactly what I've been trying to expose here.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Cherk]
#5493997 - 04/08/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Smoker, I'm curious - of what religion are your parents of [or closest to]?
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494001 - 04/08/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I didn't ask anyone to accept the hypothetical as truth. I simply asked how they would react if it WAS true. Why is this an invalid question?
You didn't say anything about truth, merely that of it not being a perspective that one should form. Creating a hypothetical situation is forming a perspective. 
Its not an invalid question, merely an extremely vauge, limited one. I guess it has effectively served to discover certain illogical conclusions in certain members, however (yourself included). 
Quote:
If someone managed to demonstrate that, then I would accept it. How they'd do that without using logic to demonstrate logic is false, I don't know, but not only am I open to the possibility, I would welcome it because it would radically change my world view and make for a very interesting future of contemplation.

Quote:
Alright. Well, the way it's supposed to work in philosophical discussion is if I ask a question that is not narrow enough for you to answer simply and directly, you ask me to clarify the points you need narrowed, then you answer the question.
In which manner would you clarify your original question? Without the nature of the evidence itself, I don't think it is possible to clarify the question.
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That's not what's happening here. The answers here so far are all some variation of "that evidence cannot exist, not even hypothetically".
Bullshit. You're only seeing what you want to see. I suggest you re-read these responses with an open mind.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494010 - 04/08/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i wood wership the rat as a manefestation of god - in other words i wood become a
*drum roll pleeze*
A RAT-IONALIST!
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494012 - 04/08/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I didn't ask anyone to accept the hypothetical as truth. I simply asked how they would react if it WAS true. Why is this an invalid question?
You accepted the hypothetical as truth and even made conclusions based on it. Look-
Quote:
FG said: I don't understand what the purpose of posing such a question is beyond simple provocation.
Diploid said:
Its purpose is to demonstrate how mystic heads are dead-set in their ways and will not allow that mysticism may be a myth, even in principle.
I think it succeeded at that.
How can you come to that conclusion based on hypothetical answers?
How they think they would act and how they really would is the difference between fantasy and objective reality. You made a demonstration you felt that was successful based on fantasy evidence, not concrete evidence.
It's meaningless and proves nothing.
Who is deluding themselves and casting illusions here?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Quoiyaien
><<<<0>>>><


Registered: 06/08/04
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494022 - 04/08/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So if two minds believe two different things, which is true? Two sides to the same coin. The picture disappeared.
Heads: God took it Tails: There is a rational explanation, unknown, but rational. Coin: the picture disappeared
There could be an infinite number of possibilities to explain the pictures disappearance. So you could technically equate God with infinity therefore claiming God took the picture.
And what is rational anyway? It seems to me that rational is only what the mind is ready to accept based on a first handed experience of the collective consciousness. This view leaves very little room for intellectual evolution. The mystics view, however far out (whether it be true or not), helps push the boundaries on what is rationally acceptable to the masses by introducing an element of mystery, or open mindedness.
Peace
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Cherk
Fashionable


Registered: 10/25/02
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somewhere between atheist and agnostic
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5494051 - 04/08/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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In which manner would you clarify your original question?
That depends on what part of it you're having trouble with. From my point of view, the question is simple and direct and doesn't need clarification. The request for clarification has to come from you. Tell me exactly what part is vague, and I'll try to address it.
Quote:
That's not what's happening here. The answers here so far are all some variation of "that evidence cannot exist, not even hypothetically".
Bullshit. You're only seeing what you want to see. I suggest you re-read these responses with an open mind.
OK. Here's a sampling:
that never will happen
I guess we'll never know
it would be impossible to relate with or identify with
You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective
using fastistic hypotheticals to linguistically hold someone up at gun point
this question isn't meaningful or relevant
It's a hypothetical question. Why is that so hard?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/08/06 06:28 PM)
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Cherk
Fashionable


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494054 - 04/08/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I never said that this was the event that caused me to start believing. Rather that it is not until recently that I have become aware of the pivotal role this event played in my spiritual path.
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
Edited by Smoker For Peace (04/08/06 06:31 PM)
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Cherk
Fashionable


Registered: 10/25/02
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I do not want to decieve you though, for a few years my family attended a Presbyterian church because my parents enjoyed the teachings of morality accompanied with that faith. I also attended a program called Awanas at a Baptist church with my neighbor after his parents told my parents what a great program it was. To my best guess we stopped going to church when I reached the age of 7-9.
At the age of 13 I started on my current path of meditation and self realization through eastern thought.
I asked my parents the next day if they had removed the art from my room while I was sleeping and they had not. I should also mention that I did not tell my parents about my prayer until years later.
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
Edited by Smoker For Peace (04/08/06 07:02 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494201 - 04/08/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Stating that you would accept the evidence, then in the same breath attaching the caveat that such evidence cannot exist says only that you would not accept the evidence in principle.
And we're back where we started: mystics will not uncling themselves from their beliefs no matter what; not even for the purpose of a hypothetical discussion.
i never stated that such evidence could not exist and i said if "i were presented with proof of something of course i would believe it." is that what you want to hear? once again, if you were to beyond all reasonable doubt prove me wrong about something, i would change my mind and admit that i was wrong.
the reason i didn't think the question was meaningful is because i dont think there are many people here who would say that if something was proven to them BY THEIR OWN STANDARD OF PROOF (because i'm assuming thats what you mean by concrete irrefutable evidence) that they would continue to deny it. so what do you mean by concrete irrefutable evidence?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494231 - 04/08/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: That depends on what part of it you're having trouble with. From my point of view, the question is simple and direct and doesn't need clarification. The request for clarification has to come from you. Tell me exactly what part is vague, and I'll try to address it.
The question itself is vauge. If you believed in this, and something demonstrated that this was false, would you accept that it was false?
Whoa, that is one detailed, explicit question! 
It isn't that much of a stretch to see this question as being loaded, considering the context in which it is asked. If you don't simply answer the question with a yes, you are contorting! If you answer it with a no, then you are close-minded, such a typical trait of a "mystic head". 
Quote:
It's a hypothetical question. Why is that so hard?
It isn't a simple hypothetical question. The question is being placed within a context and carries with it certain connotations, implied by your references to mysticism. That is what people are responding to.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494618 - 04/08/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Did you answer BlueCayote's question near the start of the thread?
You do realize that you're asking a spin-table question with your hypothetical. Anyone can throw it from any point of view.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....


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Re: A Question For Someone With a Different Perspective Then I.... [Re: Diploid]
#5494781 - 04/08/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all mysticism is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them? . Serious question.
"""Mysticism is usually understood in a religious context, but as William James (1902) points out, mystical experiences may happen to anyone, regardless of religious training or inclinations. Such experiences can occur unbidden and without preparation at any time, and might not be understood as religious experiences at all. They may be interpreted, perhaps, as artistic, scientific, or other forms of inspiration, or even dismissed as psychological disturbances. """
Questioning if someone would abandon their subjective perspective of experience(s) based on someone else's "hypothetical concrete proof" perspective....?
That's the spirit....! Eeehhhh.... 
To answer your question, YES.... And I wish you good luck in finding evidence that disproves my subjective personal experience(s)....
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5494803 - 04/08/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: My belief in god would remain, but my belief that a divine intercendance has taken place, yes.
So, even though the seminal event that caused you to begin to believe turns out to have been false, you continue to believe.
This rigidity of the mystic head mentality is exactly what I've been trying to expose here.
It's difficult to fathom the non-existence of something one has seen and experienced first-hand - and ultimately, has become.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5495247 - 04/09/06 12:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all mysticism is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them?
If someone gave me empiric evidence which was irrefutable, I'd quickly chastise them, lecturing on and on about how their hypothesis was improperly formed. 
I consider nihilist, absurdist, naturalist, empiricist, skeptic, and atheist to all be accurate labels of myself. Yet, I still venture into the 'realm of mysticism' and sometimes even religion (especially Eastern thought). The main difference I see between my perspective of mysticism and the perspective of the majority of those who call themselves 'mystics' is that I don't assume my 'mystical' experiences represent any external truth(s). I'll accept the possibility that these experiences do, in fact, have some divine significance and aren't merely hallucinations, but, unless it somehow is empirically testable, it still remains uncertain. It is neither scientifically refutable nor confirmable. I can only speculate whether mystical experiences represent truth or exactly the opposite (hallucination).
Thusforth, it seems silly to believe in something which I can only speculate about, no matter how truthful and coherent the speculation may seem or feel.
"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths of Spirits and conjurations of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them." -- Aleister Crowley
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: A Question For Someone With a Different Perspective Then I.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5495303 - 04/09/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"""Mysticism is usually understood in a religious context, but as William James (1902) points out, mystical experiences may happen to anyone, regardless of religious training or inclinations. Such experiences can occur unbidden and without preparation at any time, and might not be understood as religious experiences at all. They may be interpreted, perhaps, as artistic, scientific, or other forms of inspiration, or even dismissed as psychological disturbances. """
It is for this reason that it is important we all understand that psychology is not the same thing as philosophy. Psychologically, we have the capacity [for instance] to experience happiness [as well as a myriad of other emotions, as an emotional spectrum is pre-wired in human brains]. Philosophy, however, plays the role in determining what we choose to be happy about - i.e., it is our philosophical premises that dictate what we feel, think and act whereas it is our psychological wiring that supports the objective existence of such experiences.
This is why -regardless of the fact that we all work off of the same emotional spectrum- such an immense plurality of outcomes are possible.
Perhaps an analogy will help. Think of playing an instrument [instruments like a violin or guitar -for example- are pre-wired things], what matters is which strings you strum [and how], how and where you depress strings [a light pressure silences that string], and what pauses you may take in the process - all aimed at the production of beauty. So with the same guitar, I can play vastly different songs - think of the disparity between entire genres of music. Fireworks, I'm certain, can testify to this.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
#5495623 - 04/09/06 05:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The question itself is vauge. If you believed in this, and something demonstrated that this was false, would you accept that it was false?
I think it's excruciatingly clear, more so since you appear unable to tell me what part needs clarification.
Be that as it may, since you seem to understand what my intention was, how would YOU phrase the question?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Noetical
Flip Horrorshow

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
#5495634 - 04/09/06 05:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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dipppy do dah,
don't waste your time. you arre smart. do something constructive.
the end.
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