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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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A Question For Mystic Heads
    #5490549 -

Hypothetically, if you were shown concrete, irrefutable evidence that all mysticism is fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking, would you accept and admit that your beliefs are, and have always been, wrong and would you abandon them?

Serious question.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490630 -

If that would mean, that mystics will never be right, then I would agree.
But because that never will happen, I am not able to think about it hypothetically :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490634 -

Show me this evidence, and we'll see.


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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490652 -

anwser: no!

crop circels have been shown to manmade and are still conciderd othentic.

prayer study fails and beleivers still offen up a bogis exsplanation as too why it failed.

same with ufo hoaxes and so on.

hell, televangelists are exposed as frauds then still go on to make millions.

msytic head = stuck in fantasy and unable to see what is.

Vernon Howard's
SECRETS OF LIFE (R)

**********************************************************************

"As a healthy exercise, catch yourself indulging in a pointless
imagination, and drop the scene."


Vernon Howard's
SECRETS OF LIFE (R)

**********************************************************************

"Receiving facts that part of us does not want to receive is
a sign of cosmic courage."


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490656 -

""mysticism is fantasy""

this is a fact..



you should look in to what fantasy, is! ...

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Silversoul]
    #5490658 -

Show me this evidence, and we'll see.

If I had the evidence, it wouldn't be a hypothetical question.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/07/06 07:28 PM)

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5490674 -

But because that never will happen

So, you don't even acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that you could be wrong.

That is stagnation: the antithesis to spirituality and growth.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490691 -

One can illustrate physiological and psychological correlates of religious experience, but only the meaning attributed to the subjective factor can be refuted by an external empirical evaluator. For example, materialist and atheist Sigmund Freud attempted to force religious experiences of the mystical variety into his psychosexual framework (granted, psychoanalysis is anything but hard science). Freud insisted that the "oceanic experience" was nothing but a regression in the service of the ego to an intrauterine memory.

Jean-Paul Sartre refuted the transcendental ego in his book The Transcendence of the Ego on Existentialist philosophical grounds. He too, of course, was an atheist, but he recognized the existence of "absolute consciousness" while denying that a 'subject' (ego) participated in it.

I think C. G. Jung said it best:

"That religious experiences exist no longer needs proof. But it will always remain doubtful whether what metaphysics and theology call God and the gods is the real ground of these experiences. The question is idle, actually, and answers itself by reason of the subjectively overwhelming numinosity of the experience. Anyone who has had it is seized by it and therefore not in a position to indulge in fruitless metaphysical speculations."

Further,

"The religious person enjoys a great advantage when it comes to answering the crucial question that hangs over our time like a threat: he has a clear idea of the way his subjective experience is grounded in his relationship to 'God.' I put the word 'God' in quotes in order to indicate that we are dealing with an anthropomorphic idea whose dynamisms are filtered through the medium of the unconscious psyche. Anyone who wants to can at least draw near to the source of such experiences, no matter whether he believes in God or not."

Lastly,

"This is certainly not to say that what we call the unconscious is identical with God or is set up in his place. It is the medium from which the religious experience seems to flow. As to what the further cause of such an experience may be, the answer to this lies beyond the range of human knowledge. Knowledge of God is a transcendental problem."

Now those of us who claim to share in the above-mentioned "knowledge" in some capacity, have secondarily thrown in with those who choose to believe. Like Doubting Thomas, we chose to believe in God following an experience of 'Knowing.' That is to say, like the experience of Ram Dass* that he related in BE HERE NOW, I for one chose to live 'as if' the Experience had its roots in 'God' as certain metaphysical traditions have described It. As for me, the quality of my life began to improve tremendously after assuming this stance, and for reasons which still escape me. I am sustained during situations hard on the ego, not with doctrines and promises, but with Presence - Presence of Mind - which Jung has described (after Rudolph Otto's term) as "Numinous." Dreams and intuitions speak to me with symbols and insistancy that more often than not provide guidance in life. Doubts (your "fantasy, self-deception, and wishful thinking") concern doctrines, but not the immediacy of one's awareness, especially a Numinous awareness. After Descartes, I might doubt everything and anything, but I do not doubt my awareness, and a Numinous, cosmic, psychedelic awareness shares all the phenomenology with spiritual traditions since time immemorial. So No, there is not, nor can there ever be "concrete, irrefutable evidence" such as that to which you refer. THAT is a fantasy and reminds me only of '1984,' Soviet gulag 'psychiatric hospitals,' and The Mothers of Invention song 'Who are the Brain Police?'

* "...I felt a new kind of calmness - one of profundity never experienced before. I had just found that 'I', that scanning device - that point - that essence - that I was beyond Life and Death. And something else -that 'I' Knew - it really Knew. It was wise rather than just knowledgeable...Now I only need look within to that place where I Knew."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5490708 -

I for one chose to live 'as if' the Experience had its roots in 'God' as certain metaphysical traditions have described It.

So, rather than seeking Truth, you settle for dogma which may or may not be Truth.

Again, I see in this only stagnation, not spirituality and growth. Growth requires one not to set roots in ideas but to remain agile and willing to change in the light of new information.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/07/06 09:12 PM)

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490710 -

Diploid said:
Show me this evidence, and we'll see.

If I had the evidence, it wouldn't be a hypothetical question.


Then I guess we'll never know. :shrug:


--------------------

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490726 -

Diploid said:
But because that never will happen

So, you don't even acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that you could be wrong.

That is stagnation: the antithesis to spirituality and growth.


No, I can absolutely acknowledge that fantasy could be mysticism. But your question did not involve the fact that fantasies may come true, what could be proven historically.
So, do you imply that fantasies are always untrue, therefore mystics are always wrong ? Or am I implying too much ? :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490839 -

I reached self-illumination with imagination itself. I began to have fantasies of a cosmic Mystery and its possibilities before She began to reveal Herself through manifestation; making my fantasy a living reality. I can't really answer your question because it's irrational from my point of view (I've seen what I've seen :shrug:) It would be the same if I asked you if you would assume a conscious-stance if I presented to you evidence of a unified Mystery. Even with such information, I'd wager unless you didn't obtain that knowledge through the vehicle of imagination and desire, it would be impossible to relate with or identify with. Mystery absorbs people through their personalities.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5490952 -

Diploid said:
I for one chose to live 'as if' the Experience had its roots in 'God' as certain metaphysical traditions have described It.

So, rather than seeking Truth, you settle for dogma which may or may not be Truth.

Again, I see in this only stagnation, not spirituality and growth. Growth requires one not to set roots in ideas but to remain agile and willing to change in the light of new information.


Dude...Read the post again...slow-w-w-ly. The Experience is Experience - NOT dogma. You are, well, obsessed with the dogma of your own view. Man... you can't even read an honest and well thought out description of someone's own experience. Why do you think I have even taken the time to write this response to you? Huh? To convert you to my perspective? Ridiculous. I am attempting to provide as much clarity and simplicity as I can muster to answer your pseudo serious inquiry. I should have known by your perjorative and condescending call for "Mystic Heads," which I am big enough to overlook, but I will henceforth view all of your pseudo seriousness as little more than baiting. You must be really bored with your life. Certainly you cannot be a happy camper. Fulfilled, self-actualizing (B-Cognizing) individuals do not even think about behaving as you do. You really ought to feel some shame, and I really need to adjust my optimism and waste no more valuable time with the likes of you. And you call Me stagnant?! You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective and you can't even read my response correctly without returning an insult! An insult, when all you are able to do is have a monologue with your own crippled perspective? Pathetic.

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5491014 -

You must be really bored with your life. Certainly you cannot be a happy camper. Fulfilled, self-actualizing (B-Cognizing) individuals do not even think about behaving as you do. You really ought to feel some shame, and I really need to adjust my optimism and waste no more valuable time with the likes of you. And you call Me stagnant?! You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective and you can't even read my response correctly without returning an insult! An insult, when all you are able to do is have a monologue with your own crippled perspective? Pathetic.

One sure sign that your beliefs are wanting is when you find yourself getting upset at them being questioned and launching ad hominems at the questioner. :shrug:

You're incapable of acquiring a new perspective

I'm unwilling to acquire a perspective that is founded in fantasy. There's a difference. Substantiate the perspective, and I'll acquire it immediately.

That's the difference between you and me, Markos: I'm willing to say I am wrong and to change my mind if someone shows me more than cheap talk about mysticism.

You, by your own admission, will not even concede any possibility that you may be wrong. That's why I call you stagnant.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/07/06 11:05 PM)

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5491092 -

Huh, you called me stagnant as well. But I overlooked it, and I hopefully made clear, that my answer had nothing to do with that concept at all, unless you will declare your point, that fantasies are utterly BS. I think this would start a new thread :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5491240 -

If I was shown concrete irrefutable evidence of anything, it would strike me as foolish not to change my view of reality accordingly.

I'm unwilling to acquire a perspective that is founded in fantasy.

Okay, could you please define what you consider mysticism to be? Because as I know it, it is certainly not founded in fantasy, yet as you know it, it certainly seems to be.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: dblaney]
    #5491263 -

Merriam-Webster's most apropos definition is: vague speculation : a belief without sound basis

If it can't be detected in any way whatsoever other than in your own mind, I call it mysticism/fantasy/magic/mumbo-jumbo.

Note that I don't say mysticism doesn't exist, but neither do I say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. Both are substantiated by the same quantity and quality of evidence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: Diploid]
    #5491281 -

If it can't be detected in any way whatsoever other than in your own mind, I call it mysticism/fantasy/magic/mumbo-jumbo.

So then are you rejecting essentially all empirical thought? Tell me how else one can perceive reality if not through your own mind?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: dblaney]
    #5491287 -

dblaney said:
So then are you rejecting essentially all empirical thought? Tell me how else one can perceive reality if not through your own mind?


I don't think it is a question of the nature of one's perceptions; in fact, it is a question of one's conclusions in regards to one's perceptions. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Question For Mystic Heads [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5491333 -

Ah, okay.

I view mysticism in this regard: it asks the question Is there an eternal Reality? Many of the answers given by sages and seers follow extremely coherent and logical frameworks that require absolutely no faith or belief in ANYTHING and furthermore invite you to test out what they say for yourself.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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