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OfflineDoctorJ
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The Alchemist
    #2632479 - 05/03/04 05:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Here is a book which is reknowned by celebrities and former Presidents alike as an "inspirational masterpiece".  It has sold more than twenty million copies and it has been translated into over 56 languages.  This is one of those books that people tell you that "you have to read", like its gonna change your whole outlook on life or something:
The Alchemist: A Fable About Following Your Dream by Paulo Coelho

This book is dumb. 

Its about a shepherd from spain who decides to sell his flock and go to egypt to pursue a treasure from his recurring dreams.  Along the way he meets many interesting people and encounters many hardships and challenges.  But signs and omens keep pointing him to his dream and he has faith in them.  Many of the people he meets on the way help him in his pursuit.  One of them is an Alchemist who teaches him to read signs and omens and "listen to his heart" :rolleyes: 

Eventually, everything works out and the dude gets the treasure.  The main points of this book are as follows:

1.  Follow your dreams
2.  If you want something, the whole world will help you get it
3.  The same hand writes all fates, so everything was "meant to be"
4.  Heed signs and omens; trust gut instincts and your "heart"
5.  The main reason for failure and unhappiness is giving up on your dreams. 

While I happen to metaphysically agree with a lot of the book's ideas, I think that the practical advice it offers is terrible.  90% of the things that happened in this book would not have happened the same way in real life as they did in the story.  The book is optimistic to the point of naivetie.  The book doesnt just promise "inner peace" by following its advice, it actually offers material reward. 

Furhermore, the book promotes bad thinking habits by overemphasizing the importance of subjective "omens" and personal feelings.  In a fairy tale, these things may be accurate predictors of reality, but in real life, we need something a little more objective.  If the scientific method is how intelligent people think naturally, then this book outlines the cognitive strategies which the highly unintelligent are likely to use. 

This book also promotes narcissism, which I find repugnant.  No fucking wonder why madonna liked it so much.  Paulo actually says something in the forward about the virtue of selfishness. 

And i think that that is why this book is successful.  It has given people justification for their self-obsession, their greed, and their lazy, bad cognitive habits.  This affective drivel makes them all squishy inside. 

anyway, if some stoner at a dead concert tells you to read this, my advice is not to waste the hour it will take. 

Anyone who has read the book can disagree, but I thought it was drivel.


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineParabolaChair
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2632507 - 05/03/04 05:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hah, good to know man, thanks.


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OfflineWizdum
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2632844 - 05/03/04 06:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

And i think that that is why this book is successful. It has given people justification for their self-obsession, their greed, and their lazy, bad cognitive habits. This affective drivel makes them all squishy inside.




People are constantly looking for support and validation of their bad habits. It's kind of sad, really. :nonono:


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Invisibleivi
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2633787 - 05/03/04 09:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't like Paulo Coelho either. He's so lame :thumbdown::nonono:

Try this one, DoctorJ. Something tells me You will love it :wink:
It is the Shpongle/GD/BoC of the literature! hehehe...

 

(read more about the book)


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Invisiblebert
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2633805 - 05/03/04 09:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I read The Alchemist as well on the recommendation of a friend. Terrible book, I agree with you totally. It was pretty much just inspirational brain candy for people who also read stuff like Chicken Soup for The Soul and watch Dr. Phil.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: bert]
    #2633975 - 05/03/04 09:43 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

LOL! Right, good analogy.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: ivi]
    #2633985 - 05/03/04 09:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'll check it out. anything that alludes to Faust should be aight.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2634350 - 05/03/04 10:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What made you take such issue with this popular piece of fluff? Is it that you were just disappointed? I mean, it bugs me that someone used the term 'alchemist' in a little book that has nothing to do with alchemy, and everyone thinks that it's profound and buys it - literally and figuratively. I mean, the license plate on my car has said ALCHEMY for the past 12 years. I have a fairly extensive library of real alchemical writings and art, and Sun-Moon art adorns our living room as the symbol of our Alchemical Marriage (the Conjunctio Oppositorum), yet nobody in 12 years has ever discussed this stuff with me besides the Jungian analysts I used to see. Some country girl in a huge pick-up truck, who was apparently homesick for central Florida, saw my license plate and yelled out the window at me in my Miata at a red light in Hollywood, Florida: "ALLEGHENY?! ALLEGHENY COUNTY?!!" I didn't respond 'cause it would have embarrassed her.
One middle school teacher asked me about it last year (I was shocked) and when I met my Lady, she at least knew about the 'turning-base-metals-into-gold' notion that most people hear about. More importantly, she took an interest in spiritual alchemy after learning about it.

Sorry...I guess you hit a nerve. Did you know that in England the title of 'Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone' kept the original title of 'Harry Potter and the Philosophers' Stone' which is the goal of true alchemy? Of course the notion of sorcerer with its overtones of 'power' is much more marketable in the USA than 'philosopher' or the implications of alchemist via 'philosophers' stone.' Anyway...............


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2634465 - 05/03/04 11:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

yeah it just struck me as the type of lame spirituality book that they would sell at Hot Topic in the mall. It was recommended to me by a good friend and I thought it might be good. Boy was I wrong.


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisibleMycomancer
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2635482 - 05/04/04 03:10 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

An interesting coincidence, i just picked this book up at a yard sale about a week ago (50 cents) and I agree, it doesn't live up to the hype. However, if none of the hype existed, it'd just be an adventure story, or a mediocre fable.

I got alot more out of The Way of the Peaceful Warrior, by Dan Millman.

mycomancer


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Invisiblebert
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: Mycomancer]
    #2635504 - 05/04/04 03:19 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

lol...oh man my friend recommended me that book too at the same time. I bought both off of amazon.com Way of the Peaceful Warrior was at least more interesting, I guess.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineLux
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2635591 - 05/04/04 04:02 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Haha, while I've never read this book I suppose I could be classified as highly unintelligent. Ah well, nothing new. :lol:


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2637148 - 05/04/04 04:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It is required reading for seniors in many secondary schools. It is quite sad that this is the kind of literary trash we teach kids today.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: d33p]
    #2637203 - 05/04/04 04:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

that does not surprise me at all. this is the same kind of garbage that they made me read when I was in HS.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2681266 - 05/15/04 05:13 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I read it and I actually thought it was good read.
Of course if you take this read as a serious lesson or teaching of spirituality, it turns out to be disappointing.
I don't think Paulo tried to teach any philosophical ideas through this book, its more of a romantic/fantastic book that serves as entertainment.
And it should be pointed out that the story takes place like a thousand years ago or something. So it goes a thousand years back to the way people were thinking back then.

I agree though that kids shouldn't be reading this at school, it isn't a book to be studied, its kinda like a mushroom trip, its a voyage to another place.

I'm sad people trash this book.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: The Alchemist [Re: exclusive58]
    #2682137 - 05/15/04 02:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I agree.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: exclusive58]
    #2682190 - 05/15/04 02:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"good read"?

the whole thing was just so bloody nice, wasn't it?  everything worked out just right in the end.

I love how the dude just leaves his girl behind because he knows its "true love" and she "will wait for him".  :lol:

and after he spends years having all these adventures, they supposedly get back together.  but the book doesnt say shit about all the other travellers that girl boinked while staying in that oasis. 

anyway, the whole thing is a big fantasy, and there are a lot of other examples of things in that book that would probably not have happened in reality. 

and i really do think that the author intended it as a fable with a moral.  Did you read the forward in the book?


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisibleJenny
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2682237 - 05/15/04 02:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i'm reading it right now. my mom gave it to me so i figured i'd give it a go. its fine..its a book


--------------------

Mindfulness is the aware, balanced acceptance of the present experience.
It isn't more complicated than that.
It is opening to or recieving the present moment, pleasant or unpleasant, just as it is,
without either clinging to it or rejecting it.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: Jenny]
    #2682244 - 05/15/04 02:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

burn it.

if you really need something to read, sweetheart, I can give you about 1,000 recomendations that would be a better use of your time.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2683299 - 05/15/04 07:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, this book is too naive and not real. It shows an idealized and mystical side of life.

But some books are good to be read just as funny digressions, others may offer actually insights into life.
So, as a digression the alchemist was a fine and quick read (I guess a major plus of the book is that anyone may finish it quickly, that's the way to sell 60 million copies worldwide) but nothing more.

But again, maybe I am just too cynical and people without problems in life will love the idealism there.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2685264 - 05/16/04 03:50 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Jenny,
Once you're done, give us your opinion on it!

Doctor J,
"the whole thing is a big fantasy", is exactly my point cuz it is just a big fantasy, and thats why I don't understand why you criticize the fact it contains stuff that can't really happen. Of course the wind can't take you away just because you politely asked for it to in order to save your life!

And its not like you waste your time reading books that don't offer you knowledge.
If there is one moral to it, and i particularly agree with it, its that whatever you do, follow what your heart tells you.

By the way, Alchemy is just a myth, so it would make sense that a story based on a myth would be fantastic rather than realistic.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: exclusive58]
    #2685946 - 05/16/04 11:34 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Alchemy is not a myth - alchemy is a discipline. The transmutation of Lead (Pb - Plumbum) into Gold (Au - Aurum) as pursued by greedy ancients, was (1) a misunderstanding of the Philosophers' Stone (and Hermetic Philosophy), which the crude-minded took for 'vulgar Gold metal' and (2) ironically, Lead can be transmuted into Gold, only not with the methods available hundreds of years ago - not without a Cyclotron. So, their dream was right, but their theory and method were wrong. Not exactly like dreaming of creating winged horses from the earthly variety.

Alchemy is and probably was, a psychospiritual discipline, camoflaged with proto-chemistry symbols to protect the practitioner from accusations of heresy. Creating metallic Gold for its own sake was the dream of the worldly-minded, but transmutation of the elements for the true Hermetic Philosopher meant that one was being transmuted him/herself by the Holy Spirit, because only someone who was spiritually empowered could transmute reality (like Jesus' water-into-wine, or multiplication of loaves and fish). Thus, Gold would result as a sign of the alchemist's own spiritual transmutation. Other alchemists understood all of this to be purely symbolic, as did C.G. Jung.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: exclusive58]
    #2686380 - 05/16/04 02:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If there is one moral to it, and i particularly agree with it, its that whatever you do, follow what your heart tells you.





oh, come on.  What if my heart tells me to rape children and murder people?  What if my heart tells me to take over the world and send millions of people to the gas chamber? 

how many kids in this country dream of being rock stars?  We cant all be rock stars.  You think that the dude flippin burgers at mcdonald's is following his "personal lengend"?  :lol:

Quote:

By the way, Alchemy is just a myth, so it would make sense that a story based on a myth would be fantastic rather than realistic.




actually there is such a thing as alchemy, and this book doesnt do it justice.  I'm pretty sure that the englishman character in this book is a satire of Alester Crowley.  But Crowley actually got a lot of work done as far as gematria is concerned.  He wasn't the deluded fool that the book made him out to be.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2712211 - 05/21/04 06:59 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, after some research on Alchemy, I have come to conclude that saying that it is a discipline is quite an exageration.

If it was, then it would be commonly practiced, because transmuting hydrogen to helium for example, releases a good amount of energy, so that it would become the new source of energy that our planet would use. In 1989, two scientists declared that they have done so by means of cold fusion. Everybody rushed to their labs to try and recreate the same experiment. A couple said they succeeded, the rest failed and called it a fraud. No scientific data was there to proove any succesful experiments. The case was closed.

The scientific community is still widely skeptic about alchemy. Especially physicists, because alchemy goes against the laws of physics. Anyhow the case is re opened today and very serious experiences are being done globally to try and obtain nuclear reaction...at an ambiant temperature. The scientists workin on these experiments prefer to call alchemy "nuclear science of condensed matter", or "low energy nuclear reaction", or even "chemicaly assisted nuclear reactions". The skepticism of scientists leads to alot less research on alchemy than what should be done, because not many people are willing to fund these researches.
Anyways, at least 2 of them are convinced that the phenomenon exists, but there have been no real results yet. They expect to have discovered alot within two yeears from now. A couple theories have been made to xplain the HOW of alchemy, but they remain theories.
Alchemy remains an occult science.

So I take back the fact that I said it was a myth, but it is still kinda like a dream, that is in the process of realizing itself (hopefully). I am skeptic about the spiritual side to alchemy. Calling it a "psychospiritual discipline" is going a bit far. I agree with C.G. Jung, it is purely symbolic.

...:thinks:...

But then again, I am also skeptic about the science of it. Alchemy goes back a very long time in our history. IF the ancient obscure scientists really did fabricate the elixir of long life, or use the powerful Philosopher's Stone to turn lead into gold, then HOW could they have done so without the materials needed for such cold fusion...is there really some kind of spiritual power needed to alchemy?

So maybe we will reach a point in our history when spirituality and science will have sufficiently evolved so that they may "fusion" one with the other, and the link between these two realms would be ALchemy...just an idea.



DOCTOR J,
Yes, I do believe we all have a "personal legend" to live, its just some don't search for it in theirselves and therefore don't find it. And its not because you're flippin burgers at burger king that you're not living your personal legend, you might need to save up money to live it! :wink:

But seriously, "your life is not useless. Your ephemeral life has a sense, a way. It doesn't lead you to a dead end. Everything has a meaning. Get something going! Do something, even if its tiny, but do something of your life before you die! You are not born for nothing.
You have to discover that for what you are born.
What is your infinitesimal mission?
You are not haphazardly born."

-Bernard Werber  :thumbup:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: exclusive58]
    #2712722 - 05/21/04 09:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If you peruse The Anatomy of the Psyche: Alchemical Symbolism and Psychotherapy by Edward F. Edinger, then you will perhaps understand the discipline of alchemy which serves also as a therapeutic metaphor for personal development. The human being, as described in Taoist alchemy and yoga, or in the yoga of Vajrayana Buddhism, illustrate the human psychospiritual anatomy as a veritable alchemical 'alembic' - like the glass vessel of chemical alchemy. Heat is applied to a pear-shaped glass vessel, with a cap and a delivery stem that leads to a receiving flask. These are the Root, Solar Plexus, Head, Throat and Heart Centers. In Taoist alchemy, the 'circulation of the Light' is likened to reflux distillation. In the Buddhist model, it is akin to fractional distillation with different 'densities' (energies) that are fractionated at the different Centers, the most volatile (spiritual) which accumulates at the 'Head' and which descends through the Throat Center to the Heart center.

The various alchemical processes: solution, coagulation, calcination, etc. in Western alchemy as Jung and Jungians like Edinger describe, all illustrate the transformation and individuation of the unconscious person to greater consciousness. This process itself constitutes a spiritual discipline.

You might consider that my attribution of alchemy as a discipline is not my idea. I have adopted it after 30 years of study, eight years of Jungian analysis with three Zurich-trained Jungians, 20 years of psychotherapy practice and the recognition that alchemy in the Orient and the Occident, in both spiritual and material (and magical in-between) goes back at least 2000 years.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinespacegates
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Re: The Alchemist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2714496 - 05/22/04 01:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I think maybe the theme of alchemy in the book might be a metaphor.

Just a thought.


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