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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4792881 -

I do have a problem with someone who states "I know god exists, because he talks to me"... that kind of statement is really a dirty trick, an attempt of one person to claim authority and knowledge of what none of us truly knows...

a person who makes such a claim is doing so because he will not admit that he doesn't know whether god exists or not, like the rest of us... it is an attempt to stifle discussion by claiming to be able to confirm through testimony the existence of god and that he does indeed talk to some of us...

how do you know why he is doing so? you don't. what if he does know?

likewise, people who claim to know what happens to us after death, because they communicate with the dead, or someone who claims to know that extraterrestrials have visited us because they have had conversations with them and are privy to knowledge that the rest of us do not have access to...

nobody truly knows whether god or aliens exist or what happens to us after we die... those who claim to have knowledge of these subjects because of personal communication are liars, pure and simple, who have zero respect for the rest of us who are genuinely interested in exploring these topics...

such people will listen to your beliefs, and then come right out and tell you that you are wrong, because they know and you are just speculating... they don't say 'such and such book says you are wrong' or even 'i believe you are wrong', they say 'you are wrong, because i know the real truth'

your whole post is horrendously illogical and ironic. you attack people who claim they "know" the answer to questions which you think no ones knows and then you do the exact same thing they are doing by saying you know that no one knows. your claim that you know the answer to the question of whether anyone knows is no different then someone elses claim they know the answer to some other question. by your own logic you must concede that you don't know whether anyone knows. all your attacks about their motivations can now be applied to you as well.

people who claim to know that which none of us knows should not be tolerated in a discussion forum devoted to exploring these subjects in an attempt to get at the truth...

as i explained above, you are one of them. are you saying you should not be tolerated here?

Edited by Deviate (10/12/05 03:19 PM)

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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: Deviate]
    #4793032 -

Mike -

i apologize in that my statement was a bit too general ... i wasn't even really personally 'replying' to your original statement as much as just working off what it made me think of ... in any case ...

i do feel that as egotistical it may be to factualize that you've seen god or felt god or whatever it may be, it is just as egotistical to kick a person down who truly believes it ... i feel it is to the discretion of the person who wishes to tell the tale whether they are taken seriously or not, and it is to the discretion of a potential reader whether he wishes to engage in the belief or disproving of such a claim ...

as we cannot 'prove' or 'disprove' that any one of us exists beyond our senses telling us that we do, we cannot sincerely prove that anything can or can't happen ...

truly, i feel that the sole fact that we can experience life is reason enough to believe that anything, truly ANYTHING is possible ... i have felt a truly divine presence at various, important (and sometimes not so important) times of my life ... i am a believer that these things were not figments of my imagination, but i leave myself open to the possibility that in fact it was just my own self lending itself the 'divine' guidance ...

i think that the important thing is that people are free to express themselves wholly and openly without stating anything as fact ... i don't think it's a problem to say 'i met god', but saying it as fact is cause for reasonable doubt ...

regardless, the person should still feel the right to say whatever happened or whatever they believe ... with the understanding that nothing is factual ...

but to say nothing is factual is subjective, too, so we're caught in a big 'ol loop here :wink:

let the people say what they have to say, and choose whether you want to read it or not ... it's YOUR choice to read what they wrote, and it's up to you whether it's a wild story or not, but in any case, it's still all subjective and i still feel it should be their choice to tell the tale ...

more freedom, less censorship, that's what i feel is most beneficial to growth ...


--------------------
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. - Galatians 5:16

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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: HB]
    #4793128 -

there are people who say "I know god exists, because that is the level of my faith, and because i see signs of his wondrous creation everywhere i look"... that is a profession of faith, and i have no problem with it...

but then again there are people, like Pat Robertson, who say "I was driving down the road, and jesus appeared before me, and he was 700 feet tall, and he told me I had to raise 3 million dollars by christmas or else i would die" (yes, Pat Robertson actually said this)

this is an obvious lie, with obvious ulterior motives... i don't need special powers to see that ol Pat was lying to all of us, and he was doing it just to get our money, and perhaps also to elevate himself in the eyes of true believers...

I find it frustrating, as a person who does not believe in god or aliens, that people will resort to fallacy just to prove their point that god or aliens do in fact exist because they themselves have personal knowledge...

you can't continue a discussion with these people because they have totally screwed the discussion with their falsehoods...

for me, it is a matter of faith that god does not exist, that aliens do not visit us, and that no person communicates with the dead... this is my belief system, and it's just as valid as someone's who believes in these things...

invariably, the person who resorts to falsehoods, does so to prove to me that I am wrong... I say that these things are unknowable, and anyone who does claim direct knowledge is, like Pat Robertson, just yanking my chain...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:

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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4793434 -

of course, in the situation their story may appear to be 100% false, but why not let them still share it?  some people really are crazy, you know ... i mean, datura grows all over los angeles, and i don't think such a thing is a coincidence :wink:


--------------------
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. - Galatians 5:16

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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4793461 -

That's very noble of you. Most people I talk to are rather self-righteous when it comes to their beliefs. They think that their beliefs are true and provable, whereas everyone else is just going on faith. What they fail to realize is that any belief any one has goes by faith, even faith in science.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: HB]
    #4793545 -

HB said:
of course, in the situation their story may appear to be 100% false, but why not let them still share it?  some people really are crazy, you know ... i mean, datura grows all over los angeles, and i don't think such a thing is a coincidence :wink:


sharing an experience is one thing, using a falsified experience to trump an argument is another thing entirely...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:

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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4794152 -

show us some expamples of the people here using falsified experiences to trump arguments. i really haven't noticed noticed this to be a problem.

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Re: statements of belief vs. claims of knowledge... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4795134 -

its true many people claim to have spoken with god falsely and for reasons of personal profit, or for their own agendas.

Its also true that many people believe they hear god speak because they are crazy, suffering from mental illness, on drugs, or are misinterpreting a voice or sensation from some other source (which could hypothetically be anything from their own subconcious thoughts to aliens or demons or spirits)

And its also not impossible that in some way, people can and do communicate with god, although perhaps not always in a "verbal" way

personally i believe experience of god and communion with god is possible for all of us.

i dont believe in a god who talks verbally or gives commandments though. i rather see God as an it, a force that creates and sustains all things.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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