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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Shamanism
    #3170001 - 09/23/04 02:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

their seems to be a prevalent fallacy that shamanic and animistic ways of knowledge and looking at the world are somehow unavailable, or inacessable to modern western man.

Now, the current definition of a shaman is "one who practices the techniques of ecstasy" the definition of ecstasy is "standing apart from normal waking conciousness"

The shaman is one who realizes that their is a world, a vast and incredible world, totally apart from yet intimatly connected with, the world we see with our eyes and feel with our hands.

The shaman realizes that the world consists of a Tonal (everything we have learned to fit into our perceptual schema and describe with language) and a nagual (the infinite realms beyond and outside of our current perceptual schema) (and yes i realize their are other definitions for these words so dont get hung up on that)

Shamanism can be said to be a system of techniques for temporarily cracking open the tonal (the ego) to let in some of that raw information stored in the endless nagual. In addition the shaman learns how to take this new information and put it into a context that is usefull and consistent in his own world.


Shamanic techniques abound, in our modern world. And we are in the unique situation of having acess to plant compounds and drugs that many shamans never even heard of, not to mention a wealth of valuable recorded infromation that they never had.

Basically, for those of us who choose to reclaim our birthright, to regain access to those infinite realms of magnificent experience, the tools and techniques are all around us to be taken advantage of.

I think that the idea that shamanic wisdom is only accesible to remote primitive tribes is foolish. The shamanic experience is simply tapping into the "world beyond" while still living in the "here below" (physical earth) and that world beyond is here, open to ALL of us, modern or primitize, urban or rural or nomadic.

The hero's journey is something that all humans should undertake in their life, it is the ESSENCE of human existance.

I for one plan to get back on the wagon, resume my training education and practice with a renewed vigour, and go way beyond the bare minimum of supernatural experience i have already had.

Maybe some of you would like to go along for the ride?

The world you live in now is like one channel on a tv, one page in a book, one room in a house.

Turn the page, change the channel, open the door... see what weve all been missing.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Offlinebmarley3434
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3170009 - 09/23/04 02:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

beautifully said.. i agree.. archaic revolution =)do you believe you have traveled ?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bmarley3434]
    #3170013 - 09/23/04 02:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

traveld? what do you mean?

ive definetly tapped into other realms from time to time, and had out of body movements...


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3170044 - 09/23/04 03:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree.

Sticking with what's "scared" and "time-honoured" can often times become a barrier for personal development. I mean, we're all experiencing different realities, so how could one method or ideology be expected to be universal?

As for shamanism - while I'm no where near the practices and dedication of shamans of past cultures, I still consider myself a practitioner of it for the reasons you said. I think this attitude of it being unreachable is just one's excuse to themsleves for not practicing it when from within they feel it holds promise.

There's no better time to start than now :smile:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3171071 - 09/23/04 07:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I love Casteneda, but his books were not about shamanism. They were ostensibly about the training of a brujo which is considered a sorcerer type individual. This was defined by old Don Juan himself in Castaneda's books. Moreover, they were fiction, good inspiring fiction, but fiction nevertheless. Mr. Castaneda was familiar with ancient systems of magic and was influenced a great deal by them, but most of the terminology used was invented or ripped from Native American myth and used out of context. The concept of Tonal and Naugal, while not without some merit, was invented by Carlos himself and is not an ancient shamanistic philosophy. Naugal is a Huichol word for a werewolf. Castaneda ripped it completely. Shamanism is about healing alone. It is not about exploring alternate dimensions by shifting the "assemblage point". A shaman is a tribal healer and guidance counselor. I hate seeing people read Castaneda and think it is shamanism, as it is well thought out and adventuresome fantasy.

"Shamanism can be said to be a system of techniques for temporarily cracking open the tonal (the ego) to let in some of that raw information stored in the endless nagual. In addition the shaman learns how to take this new information and put it into a context that is usefull and consistent in his own world."

That is not consistant with any description of any type of shamanism at all...it is Castanedaesque fantasy. Read some of the actual literature on the subject please, or better yet seek out a shaman.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/23/04 07:47 PM)


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3174523 - 09/24/04 12:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i do not agree with your description of tonal and nagual.

tonal is everything remeber!  to get to the nagual you have to crack a whole in everything! :smile:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Shamanism [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3174540 - 09/24/04 12:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

um, i cant agree or disagree with you unless you elaborate on that.

Personally i found don juans description of the tonal and nagual (using the metaphor of the tAble cloth) VERY clear and ingenius.

The tonal is everything we know. The nagual is everything we do not yet know, by cracking a hole in the tonal the nagual is let in thus expanding the tonal...


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Offlinebmarley3434
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3174899 - 09/24/04 02:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

if you are debating over those words go back and reread.. donjuan pulls them out of his ass cus they have no meaning.. it is vibration beyond words.. you can call it the testical and the natittys .. it doesnt matter =)


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Offlinebmarley3434
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bmarley3434]
    #3174911 - 09/24/04 02:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you can just as easily switch those 2 words around and still experience exactly what is being said.. you are both percieving IT.. and that goes beyond any names


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Shamanism [Re: bmarley3434]
    #3175483 - 09/24/04 04:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

rite im not arguing over the words, just trying to explain my understanding of the concepts behind the words


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Offlinebmarley3434
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3175585 - 09/24/04 05:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i just recieved in the mail a book called hallucingens and shamanism by michael j. harner you all should check it out


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3184080 - 09/26/04 11:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Shamanism has nothing to do with invented concepts like "naugal" or "tonal". As a Castaneda fan I find myself in the peculiar position of refuting much of his work. It was NOT a study of shamanism. It was a fictional work about sorcery.

bmarley3434, all of Harner's work is good.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3184111 - 09/26/04 11:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Shamanism has nothing to do with invented concepts like "naugal" or "tonal".

Please name or describe a non-invented concept.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Swami]
    #3184134 - 09/26/04 11:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I must clarify. Invented by a writer of fiction...however good that fiction may be. The concepts are not, nor were they intended to be, an explanation for shamanism which is concerned with healing alone. Thank you for forcing me to think out my responses better.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3184252 - 09/27/04 12:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

great little point their swami  :thumbup:

Huehue, i must disagree with you. THe definition of shamanism that i learned in religious studies at university was : a shaman is someone who practices the techniques of ecstasy. the defintiion of extasy is going outside of/beyond regular waking conciousness.

As i attempted to describe, Regular waking conciousness is the TONAL, our current paradigm/way of looking at the world. The nagual is the infinite realms of experience that lie outside of our current TONAL. Shamanism, therefore, is practicing techniques for breaking open the tonal and exploring the nagual.

I have found nothing in carlos castanedas 'fiction' that is not very much consistent with 'non-fiction' teachers of religion or spirituality. Personally i think carlos castaneda, if he did invent all his stuff out of his own ass (head) was a spiritual genius equal to or surpassing jesus or the buddha.

All of his teachings are consistent with other 'non fiction' religions, and all of them are practically applicable and usefull, which makes them totally valid in my oppinion.

I disagree with you that shamanism is concerned with healing alone. That is not consistent with my own understanding of shamanism nor with the current anthropological definition of it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184272 - 09/27/04 12:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"THe definition of shamanism that i learned in religious studies at university was : a shaman is someone who practices the techniques of ecstasy."

No. That is just one of the tools a Shaman uses to heal. With what you been saying I can tell you don't know shit about it...but that's alright ignorance is bliss they say.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184283 - 09/27/04 12:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Again you may be getting mixed up because i choose to use carlos's terms here, but whatever i choose to call the nagual and tonal (the world beyond and the here and now) the fact remains the same that shamanism involves moving beyond/aside from the latter to access the former.

This definition is indeed consistent with the currently accepted definition of shamanism.

If you prefer i can call this practice sorcery, and my message remains the same, its a worthwhile practice and one that we can all access.

But thats irrelevant because shifting the 'assembalage point' and moving into new realms of perception IS the essence of shamanism.

Now that skill was used for healing purposes, but that is not the sole use or definition of shamanism


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184363 - 09/27/04 12:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)


"No. That is just one of the tools a Shaman uses to heal. With what you been saying I can tell you don't know shit about it...but that's alright ignorance is bliss they say. "

oh comeon hue that was pathetic. I give you the university/anthropological definition of shamanism and you give me "you obviously dont know shit about it"

thats really lame. Excuse me for trusting expert studies and educators over huehue the digital alias.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184377 - 09/27/04 12:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And if shamanism was simply about healing, as you maintain, then western medical doctors and chiropractors could rightly be called shamans

But thats not true. What seperates medical doctors and shamans is that a shaman practices the techniqes of ecstasy. That is what makes him a shaman.

finally, ill point out that the dictionary definition of shamanism is as follows : sha?man ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sh?mn, sh-)
n.
A member of certain tribal societies who acts as a medium between the visible world and an invisible spirit world and who practices magic or sorcery for purposes of healing, divination, and control over natural events.

As you can see , the only thing ALL shamans have in common is being a medium or traveler between the tonal and nagual , the visible and invisible worlds. Weather they use that for healing, divination or plain old magical control of external reality, they are shamans.




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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/27/04 12:40 AM)


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184389 - 09/27/04 12:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

if he did invent all his stuff out of his own ass (head) was a spiritual genius equal to or surpassing jesus or the buddha.

I don't know what made me grimace more.. the above statement or this circular discussion of terminology.


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