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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Shamanism
#3170001 - 09/23/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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their seems to be a prevalent fallacy that shamanic and animistic ways of knowledge and looking at the world are somehow unavailable, or inacessable to modern western man.
Now, the current definition of a shaman is "one who practices the techniques of ecstasy" the definition of ecstasy is "standing apart from normal waking conciousness"
The shaman is one who realizes that their is a world, a vast and incredible world, totally apart from yet intimatly connected with, the world we see with our eyes and feel with our hands.
The shaman realizes that the world consists of a Tonal (everything we have learned to fit into our perceptual schema and describe with language) and a nagual (the infinite realms beyond and outside of our current perceptual schema) (and yes i realize their are other definitions for these words so dont get hung up on that)
Shamanism can be said to be a system of techniques for temporarily cracking open the tonal (the ego) to let in some of that raw information stored in the endless nagual. In addition the shaman learns how to take this new information and put it into a context that is usefull and consistent in his own world.
Shamanic techniques abound, in our modern world. And we are in the unique situation of having acess to plant compounds and drugs that many shamans never even heard of, not to mention a wealth of valuable recorded infromation that they never had.
Basically, for those of us who choose to reclaim our birthright, to regain access to those infinite realms of magnificent experience, the tools and techniques are all around us to be taken advantage of.
I think that the idea that shamanic wisdom is only accesible to remote primitive tribes is foolish. The shamanic experience is simply tapping into the "world beyond" while still living in the "here below" (physical earth) and that world beyond is here, open to ALL of us, modern or primitize, urban or rural or nomadic.
The hero's journey is something that all humans should undertake in their life, it is the ESSENCE of human existance.
I for one plan to get back on the wagon, resume my training education and practice with a renewed vigour, and go way beyond the bare minimum of supernatural experience i have already had.
Maybe some of you would like to go along for the ride?
The world you live in now is like one channel on a tv, one page in a book, one room in a house.
Turn the page, change the channel, open the door... see what weve all been missing.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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bmarley3434
wildwalker


Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 1,162
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3170009 - 09/23/04 12:56 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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beautifully said.. i agree.. archaic revolution =)do you believe you have traveled ?
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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traveld? what do you mean?
ive definetly tapped into other realms from time to time, and had out of body movements...
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Everything I post is fiction.
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deff
just love everyone


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3170044 - 09/23/04 01:06 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree. Sticking with what's "scared" and "time-honoured" can often times become a barrier for personal development. I mean, we're all experiencing different realities, so how could one method or ideology be expected to be universal? As for shamanism - while I'm no where near the practices and dedication of shamans of past cultures, I still consider myself a practitioner of it for the reasons you said. I think this attitude of it being unreachable is just one's excuse to themsleves for not practicing it when from within they feel it holds promise. There's no better time to start than now
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3171071 - 09/23/04 05:30 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I love Casteneda, but his books were not about shamanism. They were ostensibly about the training of a brujo which is considered a sorcerer type individual. This was defined by old Don Juan himself in Castaneda's books. Moreover, they were fiction, good inspiring fiction, but fiction nevertheless. Mr. Castaneda was familiar with ancient systems of magic and was influenced a great deal by them, but most of the terminology used was invented or ripped from Native American myth and used out of context. The concept of Tonal and Naugal, while not without some merit, was invented by Carlos himself and is not an ancient shamanistic philosophy. Naugal is a Huichol word for a werewolf. Castaneda ripped it completely. Shamanism is about healing alone. It is not about exploring alternate dimensions by shifting the "assemblage point". A shaman is a tribal healer and guidance counselor. I hate seeing people read Castaneda and think it is shamanism, as it is well thought out and adventuresome fantasy. "Shamanism can be said to be a system of techniques for temporarily cracking open the tonal (the ego) to let in some of that raw information stored in the endless nagual. In addition the shaman learns how to take this new information and put it into a context that is usefull and consistent in his own world." That is not consistant with any description of any type of shamanism at all...it is Castanedaesque fantasy. Read some of the actual literature on the subject please, or better yet seek out a shaman.
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/23/04 05:47 PM)
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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i do not agree with your description of tonal and nagual.
tonal is everything remeber! to get to the nagual you have to crack a whole in everything!
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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um, i cant agree or disagree with you unless you elaborate on that.
Personally i found don juans description of the tonal and nagual (using the metaphor of the tAble cloth) VERY clear and ingenius.
The tonal is everything we know. The nagual is everything we do not yet know, by cracking a hole in the tonal the nagual is let in thus expanding the tonal...
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Everything I post is fiction.
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bmarley3434
wildwalker


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3174899 - 09/24/04 12:39 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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if you are debating over those words go back and reread.. donjuan pulls them out of his ass cus they have no meaning.. it is vibration beyond words.. you can call it the testical and the natittys .. it doesnt matter =)
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bmarley3434
wildwalker


Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 1,162
Loc: nj
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you can just as easily switch those 2 words around and still experience exactly what is being said.. you are both percieving IT.. and that goes beyond any names
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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rite im not arguing over the words, just trying to explain my understanding of the concepts behind the words
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Everything I post is fiction.
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bmarley3434
wildwalker


Registered: 08/16/04
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3175585 - 09/24/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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i just recieved in the mail a book called hallucingens and shamanism by michael j. harner you all should check it out
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Shamanism has nothing to do with invented concepts like "naugal" or "tonal". As a Castaneda fan I find myself in the peculiar position of refuting much of his work. It was NOT a study of shamanism. It was a fictional work about sorcery.
bmarley3434, all of Harner's work is good.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Shamanism has nothing to do with invented concepts like "naugal" or "tonal".
Please name or describe a non-invented concept.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Swami]
#3184134 - 09/26/04 09:41 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I must clarify. Invented by a writer of fiction...however good that fiction may be. The concepts are not, nor were they intended to be, an explanation for shamanism which is concerned with healing alone. Thank you for forcing me to think out my responses better.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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great little point their swami 
Huehue, i must disagree with you. THe definition of shamanism that i learned in religious studies at university was : a shaman is someone who practices the techniques of ecstasy. the defintiion of extasy is going outside of/beyond regular waking conciousness.
As i attempted to describe, Regular waking conciousness is the TONAL, our current paradigm/way of looking at the world. The nagual is the infinite realms of experience that lie outside of our current TONAL. Shamanism, therefore, is practicing techniques for breaking open the tonal and exploring the nagual.
I have found nothing in carlos castanedas 'fiction' that is not very much consistent with 'non-fiction' teachers of religion or spirituality. Personally i think carlos castaneda, if he did invent all his stuff out of his own ass (head) was a spiritual genius equal to or surpassing jesus or the buddha.
All of his teachings are consistent with other 'non fiction' religions, and all of them are practically applicable and usefull, which makes them totally valid in my oppinion.
I disagree with you that shamanism is concerned with healing alone. That is not consistent with my own understanding of shamanism nor with the current anthropological definition of it.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184272 - 09/26/04 10:10 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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"THe definition of shamanism that i learned in religious studies at university was : a shaman is someone who practices the techniques of ecstasy."
No. That is just one of the tools a Shaman uses to heal. With what you been saying I can tell you don't know shit about it...but that's alright ignorance is bliss they say.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184283 - 09/26/04 10:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Again you may be getting mixed up because i choose to use carlos's terms here, but whatever i choose to call the nagual and tonal (the world beyond and the here and now) the fact remains the same that shamanism involves moving beyond/aside from the latter to access the former.
This definition is indeed consistent with the currently accepted definition of shamanism.
If you prefer i can call this practice sorcery, and my message remains the same, its a worthwhile practice and one that we can all access.
But thats irrelevant because shifting the 'assembalage point' and moving into new realms of perception IS the essence of shamanism.
Now that skill was used for healing purposes, but that is not the sole use or definition of shamanism
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184363 - 09/26/04 10:31 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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"No. That is just one of the tools a Shaman uses to heal. With what you been saying I can tell you don't know shit about it...but that's alright ignorance is bliss they say. "
oh comeon hue that was pathetic. I give you the university/anthropological definition of shamanism and you give me "you obviously dont know shit about it"
thats really lame. Excuse me for trusting expert studies and educators over huehue the digital alias.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184377 - 09/26/04 10:35 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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And if shamanism was simply about healing, as you maintain, then western medical doctors and chiropractors could rightly be called shamans But thats not true. What seperates medical doctors and shamans is that a shaman practices the techniqes of ecstasy. That is what makes him a shaman. finally, ill point out that the dictionary definition of shamanism is as follows : sha?man ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sh?mn, sh-) n. A member of certain tribal societies who acts as a medium between the visible world and an invisible spirit world and who practices magic or sorcery for purposes of healing, divination, and control over natural events. As you can see , the only thing ALL shamans have in common is being a medium or traveler between the tonal and nagual , the visible and invisible worlds. Weather they use that for healing, divination or plain old magical control of external reality, they are shamans.
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Everything I post is fiction.
Edited by Moonshoe (09/26/04 10:40 PM)
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Mixomatosis
great ape

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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184389 - 09/26/04 10:38 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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if he did invent all his stuff out of his own ass (head) was a spiritual genius equal to or surpassing jesus or the buddha.
I don't know what made me grimace more.. the above statement or this circular discussion of terminology.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184422 - 09/26/04 10:46 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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The only knowledge you have displayed is what you found in a Castaneda book, and you said you liked to eat a lot of shrooms. That is cool, but Castaneda and shrooms ain't what it is about. Just taking a few shrooms and talking about Don Juan requires no discipline or dedication...it is self-agrandizement. If this is what your educators are telling you about it you are getting ripped off in your education. I would like to know who your "experts" are because if you have ready access to such "experts" a trip to the Amazon is quite unnecessary. In my case I consider the experts to be Mircea Eliade, Mike Harner, Tom Brown, Mike Tausig, Pablo Ameringo, Rolling Thunder, Lame Deer, Jonathan Ott, and Joseph Campbell.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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hehe, well i can only give my own oppinions, not many people are likely to agree. I say that carlos castaneda equals the buddha and jesus simply because his philosophy has more noticeable and beneficial impact on my life than did the works of jesus or buddha. I find that what carlos castaneda says really resonates with me and is incredibly practical for both down to earth living (re: the warriors way) and more importantly it gives real, understandable methods for accesing the spiritual realms of existance.
To me, these two criteria are what make or break a spiritual teaching (teacher) 1. aplicability in regular daily life 2. Access to an experiential realm beyond the regular/mundane
As for the circular terminology, No one responded to my actual point except bmarley early on, so i contented myself with defending my terms and definitions from huehue for my own sick amusment. Are you happy now?!
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184446 - 09/26/04 10:55 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Are you happy now?!"
Yes, my point is now made.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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well, now youve got yours. Make me happy by explaining what your point was? i thought it was that shamanism is entirely about healing and not about accesing various states of conciousness but apparently its something totally different.
For anyone lacking a sense of humour/sarcasm i was jsut saying the only reason i spend so much time trying to correct the mistaken is that i get a certain degree of enjoyment from talking on the shroomery and since no one else was talkin i had nothin to do but correct huehue on his mistaken definition of shamanism.
But now im going to smoke some weed, also for my own sick pleasure.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3184516 - 09/26/04 11:19 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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whoops sorry didnt see this, guess i have to delay my session
"The only knowledge you have displayed is what you found in a Castaneda book"
Im not exactly trying to 'display knowledge' my post is just about the fact that shamanistic experience is available to all of us, here in this society, right now. Your the one who turned this into a debate over terminology, so i responded in kind with defintions from my university textbook (Shamans, Prophets, and Sages: An Introduction to World Religions By Denise Lardner Carmody) and then another one from the good old dictionary
"and you said you liked to eat a lot of shrooms. That is cool, but Castaneda and shrooms ain't what it is about. Just taking a few shrooms and talking about Don Juan requires no discipline or dedication..."
um i dont think i said i like to eat a lot of shrooms in this post, nor is that exactly related. talking about don juan doesnt require discipline or dedication (for me OR YOU) nor was i ever trying to prove my 'discipline or dedication' to anyone. What DOES take those traits though, is taking the practices outlined by carlos or anyother teacher and using them steadfastly in your daily life.
"If this is what your educators are telling you about it you are getting ripped off in your education."
The only thing in this thread i took from my educators was that shamanism is practicing the techniques of ecstasy. I simply used Don juans terms of nagual and tonal because those terms perfectly describe the seen and unseen world with which shamans deal.
The experts to which i now have access to are the authors of my textbook (Denise Lardner Carmody) as well as the author of "the way of the shaman" (michael J. Harner) and carlos castaneda. As well as my religous studies teacher Karen Zappa.
These experts are experts in the academic, anthropological sense, and i never claimed that was all their is too it, that is why i have taken it upon myself to travel across the globe to learn from the other kind of expert, those who live and breathe this knowledge in their daily lives.
As far as I can make out the only thing you are so steadfastly opposed to is my definition of shamanism, which is taken from very credible sources and which you havent even attempted to refute with anything but ad hominem attacks.
On a deeper level i think you are so defensive because you perceive me as being some shroom gobbeling thrill seeking new age hippy who is defiling the sacred tradition of discipline and dedication that you like to think belongs to you alone. However, you are way wrong and acting like a bit of a jerk.
That is something i neither can nor need to prove to you .
good night.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Ah, yes. Tom "I slapped a grizzly on the ass and hid under my Jeep" Brown.
And Rolling "I turned a tendril of smoke into a tornado" Thunder.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Swami]
#3186856 - 09/27/04 02:49 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Tom Brown is legit in his abilities. I have read and utilised his tracking book, and it works good. I don't know if he really slapped a grizzly, but his survival lore is gold. I have practiced much of this survival stuff for years and Brown's work is simply the best on the subject. I remember reading Gavin DeBecker's book "The Gift of Fear" describing Tom Brown's tracking skills as nearly supernatural. Mr. DeBecker is a security analyst that has worked for the Secret Service on many occasion. It is worth noting also that the US Navy is currently sending Seals to Brown's school. Say what you like about his philosophy, but his skill are there. The most ringing endorsement I have heard in his favor was from Seal Team Six founder Richard Marcinko who was trained by Brown in survival. I am glad to see you read the Rolling Thunder book as well...you are quite well read apparently.
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/27/04 03:35 PM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Say what you like about his philosophy... Didn't realize I said anything about his philosophy. The latest Tommy Lee Jones tracker movie from a few months back was either based on some of Tom Brown's exploits or he was used as a consultant.
I am glad to see you read the Rolling Thunder book as well...you are quite well read apparently. Someone thought I was joking when I said I have read over 2000 books. I NEVER joke.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Swami]
#3191825 - 09/28/04 02:16 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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"The latest Tommy Lee Jones tracker movie from a few months back was either based on some of Tom Brown's exploits or he was used as a consultant." Both of those things are true, but it is to his credit that he forced William Friedkin, who saw Brown perform his skills during a survival class he took, to not use his name or model the real situation accurately. The knife Jones (the steel one)used in the movie was one of the knives that Brown teaches his students to make in class and it is a damn good knife...I got one. "Didn't realize I said anything about his philosophy." In truth I did not know whether you were saying it didn't happen, or if he was just an idiot.
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/28/04 03:17 PM)
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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"I NEVER joke."
well, if THAT wasnt a joke, it was definetly a lie
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#3192031 - 09/28/04 03:14 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know for certain that I have read an average of 2 books a week for the last 20 years, and that that is certainly more than 2000. I try to always be reading a fiction and a non-fiction book at the same time. Swami's boast is not that far out there at all if he is a book lover.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
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i certainly dont doubt swamis book reading i doubt that he never makes joke. i laugh at his jokes frequently.
I read lots to and he is older guy so hes prolly read lots
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Todcasil
rogue DMT elf


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#4780957 - 10/10/05 04:38 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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making jokes is usually just pointing out the ironic component in a fictional or real situation.
everyone jokes to some extent or another!
-------------------- Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect GODDESSES Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud GODS. ~Casil
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


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Re: Shamanism [Re: Moonshoe]
#4783195 - 10/10/05 03:37 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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nagual
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RaiseTheDead
Stranger

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Re: Shamanism [Re: Gomp]
#11931809 - 01/30/10 07:25 PM (14 years, 11 hours ago) |
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SenorGrande
Stranger

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When concentrating on the details, one tends to lose focus of the bigger picture.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!



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Quote:
RaiseTheDead said:
Quote:
Gomp said: nagual

(4 years, 3 months ago)
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
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Re: Shamanism [Re: Gomp]
#11947528 - 02/02/10 12:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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"This user is already banned from the BB. Additional action is not necessary at this time."
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