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OfflineDoctorJ
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Jesus Lived for you
    #5612211 - 05/10/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The other day, I saw a sign on a church that said: "Jesus was crucified and rose again for you."

I believe this as well, but I also believe that there was more to it than that.

Do you think that Jesus wanted to be here, or that he enjoyed being here? Jesus was born in Heaven. He has free run of the entire universe, including Heaven, Hell, and God's original creation. Believe me, earth was no vacation for him. Every second he was here, he was in agony, because the nature of this place is highly separated from the spirit. Jesus is primarily a spiritual being, and physical incarnation does not suit him. Also, he didn't like having to hang out with a bunch of assholes who he knew ahead of time were gonna string him up on the cross.

think about it.

Jesus lived for you. His death isn't nearly as important as his life.


Edited by DoctorJ (05/10/06 11:12 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5612233 - 05/10/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Jesus set an example of what man could become. He was only separated from the Kingdom of Heaven in the same sense that we all are. However, unlike most of us, he came to realize the Kingdom of Heaven within himself, and taught us all about it. It was because he understood his true nature(which is our true nature as well) that he was willing to go to the cross for his teachings.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Silversoul]
    #5612246 - 05/10/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What I find funny is how the first thing people remember when they hear the word Jesus is his most painfull moment of life: crusifiction, and they even use that as a symbol of their religion.

It's like using a tiny model of an electric chair for your religion.

Why not simply have a statue of a living Jesus as a symbol


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5612254 - 05/10/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

exactly. 

you think Jesus liked to eat?

you think that's air you're breathing?  :smile:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5612303 - 05/10/06 11:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"The Sage sets his heart upon the substance, not the husk.

Truly, he prefers what is within, to what is without."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5614166 - 05/10/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
What I find funny is how the first thing people remember when they hear the word Jesus is his most painfull moment of life: crusifiction, and they even use that as a symbol of their religion.

It's like using a tiny model of an electric chair for your religion.

Why not simply have a statue of a living Jesus as a symbol




The symbolism of a violent death on the cross is not completely void of substance. Jacob Boheme (a German Christian mystic) believed it was not a literal event required to save humanity, but a symbol of God's Love for humanity, a God who was willing bear intense suffering and pain (both emotional and physical) in the flesh. Although this follows along the belief that Jesus was the Logos of God visiting the material world. I personally regard Jesus merely as an Awakened individual, like anyone else, who was so immersed in the God-reality that people naturally thought of him as God made into flesh.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Basilides]
    #5619140 - 05/11/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am a Catholic and I love this

"Jesus set an example of what man could become. He was only separated from the Kingdom of Heaven in the same sense that we all are. However, unlike most of us, he came to realize the Kingdom of Heaven within himself, and taught us all about it. It was because he understood his true nature(which is our true nature as well) that he was willing to go to the cross for his teachings. "

my thoughts put into words exactly. A man who was so in touch with human nature that he was willing to die for the cause. The kingdom is possible in all of us, it is not a mystical place in the sky. Jesus knew that but the only way the people at that time understood was through metaphor, the most common way of teaching and story telling at the time.

The symbol of Jesus on the cross is so important because it reminds us how far he went to do what he KNEW was right for humanity. He wanted to change the way people thought all over the globe and did not back down from his teachings. This is why it is important rather than just a picture of a man preaching.


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"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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InvisibleWIZOLZ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5619562 - 05/11/06 11:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Oh, the crucifixion is riddled with signifigance and meaning. Another word they use in religious teachings is the atonement. Which basically means reconsiliation of God with humanity brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

I've never been personally convinced that it should have happened though, his execution. I often wonder what would have become of things, of society had he lived to share the message more, been accepted and acknowledged for his divine nature.

You know, it seems as if alot of authors often write of the sorrow Jesus must have been experiencing before the persecution, yet knowing that it must be done in accordance to fufill the ressurection and ultimate transformation, the true genuinity of his life and teachings.
It was also an indicator of the evil and tyrany of the government (sanhedrin + Romans) who would convict an innocent and loved man to death. Its significant of the political stronghold that he did not fear and sought to liberate the people from.


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Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
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"The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance"
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WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile


Edited by WIZOLZ (05/12/06 12:47 AM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: WIZOLZ]
    #5620173 - 05/12/06 05:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the death of christ was part of a magical ritual to construct the Christ Consciousness Grid around the Planet Earth.

Jesus performed many powerful acts of magic in his lifetime. The miracles don't even come close to describing his power. The most powerful magic ritual he designed was the Eucharist. Sadly, most churches don't practice this, and most of the ones that do don't do it right. The Episcopalians and the gnostics are the closest I have seen to an accurate Eucharist.

Jesus set many things in place with his magical gifts. He established the foundations for a lot of things to come, magically speaking.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5620217 - 05/12/06 05:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I belive the bible and everything in it is like a symbolic roadmap to the arts of internal alchemy.

I must confess, ive only just recently got round to reading it properly. :phreaklove:

Im half way through the old testament, but i read alot of the new testement in primary school. :tearchalice: :hangovershades:


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Offlinemy_sonic_skyline
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Sinbad]
    #5794623 - 06/27/06 12:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
I believe the bible and everything in it is like a symbolic road map to the arts of internal alchemy.






exactly, it is the epitome of ignorance when I hear people say "no way Adam and eve didn't have belly buttons! i don't believe in that shit." people need to take the old testament as symbolism for souls.


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Anonymous

Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: my_sonic_skyline]
    #5795454 - 06/27/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i cannot rule out that JEsus did not have  feelings like us all and made choices too, off his own account.
seems this is what some of you are doing.
He tried to help people through his teachings at times.
He performed true miricals, through his unshameful love and understanding of the devinity of all things natural and lovely, God.. He came with a message for all the people, he upturned people tables and told them they had it all wrong.
People would not listen.
People are excellent at doing what they desire....
People are not so Excellent at doing what god himself Desired us too do.
If you were god.and you created this world.. wouldn't you expect the world you'd created and the all the things in it to have a devine nature...Like some do...
Im thinking that god set out to get us to beleive in our creator and to trust in his teachings and in
Jesus Christ, nothing more than this... A true and wonderous person created to grip us with certainty... Jesus made choices, god gave him that ability, He was wise and he made only wise and good choices it would seem to me..... If we all start cruicifying ourselves, maybe i can make you see im one of gods creations too, Im so convinced of God i'd give up my life to see human kind progress... in saying that i almost wanna be the first man to take his life in the name of god.its almost got to the point where i can say to you would you die on the cross?... however how could i ensure everyone of jesus's legacy by taking my own life. Well I guess history could of got twisted and jesus could of been just someone like me.... maybe i should get on ebay and sell my life for the rest of my family as a sacrifice for The lord ,i could be a first, to help people come to terms with this "impossible concept of god" jesus was in agony at times, but he saw through this, obviously......!...Aren't we all capable of this, making the ultimate sacrifce... If everyones so convinced of god and untimate divinity why cant one of us make the supreme sacrifice too.it would surely help others.....would it not.....???my names far from jesus, but it would be in the name of the lord. So my name... it would be irrelevent. :thumbup: :crazy2: :crazy2: :eek: :mushroom2: :tongue2: :wink: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: Let love for others be our Guidence system for happyness , nothing else, i say...


Edited by Horseonsandhill (06/27/06 10:49 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Jesus Lived for you *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #5795529 - 06/27/06 11:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by Horseonsandhill

Reason for deletion: i thought multiple posts werent subject to objection-lol



Edited by Horseonsandhill (06/27/06 11:17 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Jesus Lived for you *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #5795586 - 06/27/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by Horseonsandhill

Reason for deletion: to wordy



Edited by Horseonsandhill (06/27/06 11:32 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: ]
    #5795618 - 06/27/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You know, it gets really annoying when you keep replying to yourself like that.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Silversoul]
    #5797019 - 06/27/06 07:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus was here to deliver a very very important message. His whole message was that the exterior world is the manifestation of the interior one, that the "Kingdom of god" is made flesh. Each of you survive death. The man who was crucified knew this beyond all doubt, and he sacrificed nothing. As Christ says we are all drunk and he absolutely right. We have gotten so wrapped up in the false beliefs that we are conditioned into believing that we are blinded (drunk) to the truth that we all are capable of knowing. We are all part of God so we are all gods sons and he is are father. We should all be Christs in the making. :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5802041 - 06/29/06 03:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Madness , exactly, he makes me understand, i can say to my friends and non beleivers, sleepers, that we could all make the same sacrifice once we realise that it is our destiny to help others realise, can't i make people realise that im not scared to die, just as jesus wasn;t, because he and i know gods devinity and that he loves us and would want this of us all especially if one has the potential, surely not just jesus realised this.... we will eventually reach what we are far far from... jesus was man i am man, go figure, i am quite devine in my thoughts, i do not preach i do not want to either, all i want is to make the ultimate sacrifice to make you see mate, and thats the vision of god no one else, so do i go ahead?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: ]
    #5802059 - 06/29/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

live until you die

but don't be scared to fight for what you believe in

in between life and death

you can make a contribution to the other seekers on the path.


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OfflineNgalyod
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: ]
    #5802095 - 06/29/06 03:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Even though I disagree with a lot of what was said here and don't believe in Jesus, I have enjoyed reading your posts.

Was very interesting. Thanks for the read.  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Ngalyod]
    #5802227 - 06/29/06 05:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus, im convinced, that because he is one of us, a man...
A true man of god in his time, remembered to this day.
He had to be way above thoughts of self indulgence to do what he did, it appears he was, he realised gods devine vision within.
Rather than to ignore his father, his creator, thinking he new better, as most of us kids do to our own fathers these days, he had respect, he chose to embrace his father, his creator, enlightened with gods own mind and plan and devine understanding and love for him and us all as one.
basking in gods devine love for him and making others understand He loved his life and what he saw god had created, he did not understand how MANY people had or could become obsessed with the devils thoughts, and were in much darkness.
so he set out and strived to shine in the light of god and beam himself to the world in all is glory, bringing others along to bath in the light of his greatness aswell, however some did not like this as darkness was all they could see, and wanted.........


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: ]
    #5804099 - 06/29/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The big question is, “Will your outer mind recognize that for which you are ready at the higher levels of your being?” Too often people’s outer minds are so attached to a particular belief system, a particular approach to life, that they cannot recognize the ideas that can take them to the next level. Thus, people find an outer excuse for rejecting the teacher in disguise.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5804119 - 06/29/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I always thought of Jesus as the universal metaphor of the snake eating its own tail. The universe consumes itself to keep moving. The human species had to consume their own god to evolve (no pun intended) to the next phase.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5804123 - 06/29/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Im sorry but I dont understand what you are trying to say.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5804155 - 06/29/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Just my way of putting Christian metaphysics in the same place of all religions. The Australian Aboriginies look at the universe as serpent shaped or the Rainbow Serpent which eats its own tail, but gives birth to more of the snake's body. The universe is in a constant motion of opposites where death is not an end, only a flux of energy transfer. Since Jesus is a human god, it takes that concept and applies it to the human spaecies.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5804226 - 06/29/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yea that does make sense.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5804281 - 06/29/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus wasn't human.

He assumed human form, in order to communicate with a species of life that was WAAAAAAAYYYYY beneath him.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5804472 - 06/29/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus was part of god as we all are. Christ's entity was too great to be contained in any one man or any one time so th man you think of Christ was not crucified. God did not sacrifice his dearly beloved son by allowing that son to be physical. The christ entity desired to be born in space and time , to stradle creaturhood in order to serve as a leader, and to translate certain truths in physical terms. His message was meant to be carried beyond the times, but this interpretation is not often made.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5804556 - 06/29/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

exactly

the true christ is and always will be in Heaven. 

as it says in the Tao: "Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name.  Tao can be talked about, but not the eternal Tao."

The True Christ is beyond human comprehension.  It couldn't incarnate itself physically, because that would require exclusive definition, which He is beyond. 

but he does send representatives here to Earth, with whom he is deeply connected and in constant communication with. 

Thats why Jesus Christ allowed himself to be crucified.  He knew that his body was just an imperfect vessel, and that his True Self resided far far away from anyone's reach. 

There are many Christs here on Earth now.  Also, there are many Disciples of Christ (though only a small percentage of them can truly claim this moniker) on earth right now. 

I myself am an employee of Christ.  A pretty high ranking one, actually :smile:

truth is, Christ incarnates different aspects of himself at the same time.  He is literally walking around in a bunch of people's bodies right now.  Of course Christ can be multiple people at once!  He's freakin' God!  Who said the guy had to be logical?  :lol:

All of Christ's servants work in their own way with their own unique talents to bring about the Reality that Christ wants.  Knowing His agenda as well as I do, I can think of no other entity I would rather serve :heart:


Edited by DoctorJ (06/29/06 08:38 PM)


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5804901 - 06/29/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
exactly

the true christ is and always will be in Heaven. 

as it says in the Tao: "Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name.  Tao can be talked about, but not the eternal Tao."

The True Christ is beyond human comprehension.  It couldn't incarnate itself physically, because that would require exclusive definition, which He is beyond. 

but he does send representatives here to Earth, with whom he is deeply connected and in constant communication with. 

Thats why Jesus Christ allowed himself to be crucified.  He knew that his body was just an imperfect vessel, and that his True Self resided far far away from anyone's reach. 

There are many Christs here on Earth now.  Also, there are many Disciples of Christ (though only a small percentage of them can truly claim this moniker) on earth right now. 

I myself am an employee of Christ.  A pretty high ranking one, actually :smile:

truth is, Christ incarnates different aspects of himself at the same time.  He is literally walking around in a bunch of people's bodies right now.  Of course Christ can be multiple people at once!  He's freakin' God!  Who said the guy had to be logical?  :lol:

All of Christ's servants work in their own way with their own unique talents to bring about the Reality that Christ wants.  Knowing His agenda as well as I do, I can think of no other entity I would rather serve :heart:




Don't you think the 'true Christ' in Heaven is the space of awareness within all things, awareness before mind makes it a something?  It is within the beggar, the saint and the thief, wouldn't you say?

We all serve God, whether we realize it or not.

What is the reality that Christ wants?  Just universal peace and contentment, is it not?  The end of the me caring so much about me and starting to care about everyone?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5805021 - 06/29/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I've already said too much about His plans. I'm pretty sure he would rather me not give away the end of the movie before it happens.

however, this 'peace' and 'contentment' you speak of cannot simply be bestowed upon the unworthy. It must be achieved. Since most of mankind is incapable of this, it will be quite some time before it happens. Jesus doesn't hand out free passes, dude. He's not going to wave his magic wand and make all your problems go away. YOU have a responsibility to yourself and those around you to create peace on Earth with your own actions.

And yes, everyone works for God, but not everyone does a good job. God has a lot of employees that are fuckups, and he tends to discipline them until they straighten themselves out.

A lot of so-called 'Christians' want an easy solution to the problems they have created for themselves. My advice is not to hold your breath for this. You dug your hole, and you can climb out. Not only that, you can pay for the re-seeding of the beautiful lawn you ruined. If you had used your free will properly in the first place, you wouldn't be in the hole, so don't expect Mr. Holy to get himself dirty cleaning up your mess.


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5806243 - 06/30/06 08:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

We are all worthy of God's love and grace, we are inseparable from it.  God is incapable of ruthless discipline, there is only boundless love and ecstatic joy there.  And that is available to everyone, always, even during times of duress.

It is up to us to climb out of our own hole though, yes.  But it's not like some revengeful God is going to be body-slamming you while you are doing it.  God is within our little 'mistakes', but I don't see the point in thinking of it that negatively.  We need to make mistakes to find out what we aren't before we can find out what we are.  'Mistakes' are all infused and sustained by God, too.

The problem is getting caught up in these mistakes and thinking we are horrible, which prevents some from even acknowledging that we should be seeking God in the first place.  We are so sure what we are, we don't stop to think that maybe the real self has absolutely nothing to do with that, or any definition for that matter.  Getting hung up on things keeps us from moving on and continuing to grow.

We do have to work for it, but it's not like a punishment from God.  Take 1 step towards God, God takes 1000 steps towards you :smile:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5806587 - 06/30/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think it all depends on what you deserve.  God does body-slam some people.  He makes it tough for people who have made it tough on others. 

I can only imagine the shit he's been putting hitler through over the past 60 years :lol:

bastard deserves it though


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5807201 - 06/30/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Actions that are "bad" are only bad because we believe they are bad and they make us feel guilt. We have created are reality. For example a cat kills a mouse for fun. The cat feels no guilt at all there for in the cats mind killing that mouse was not a bad thing. Now im not saying that a human killing a human isnt a bad thing because it is. Thats part are way of thinking. We hold so many false beliefs that alter are ego. I like how you said God is within our little 'mistakes' because god is. Its true that god does nothing wrong. We are all made from god and we all are god so there should not be anything we do that is wrong we have just taken in these false beliefs that cause these right and wrongs.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5807236 - 06/30/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

whatever helps you sleep at night, dear

:rolleyes:

why is it that people can't take responsibility for the destructive acts they have committed against themselves and others? 

Of course there is wrong in the world!  God is weak here!  Earth is a Luciferian planet, and thus is ultimately doomed unless it reforms.  It really is that simple.  You think God cares if this planet destroys itself?  He has a zillion planets! 

Its up to us, the residents.  We can save this place or we can be irresponsible little brats and flush the whole thing down the shitter. 

Karma is God's law.  You can dodge it for awhile, but if you got warrants they will catch up to you. 

I'm sorry if your own guilt won't allow you to recognize that there is a price to be paid for the wrongs we as humans have committed.  But that's the harsh truth:  Gad ain't payin your way: YOU ARE. 

Unless you become self-sufficient, you will always be in debt and hence always a slave.  True freedom comes from mindful self-mastery, not mindless self-indulgence.  Welcome to the real world, hippy :rofl:

sorry to be harsh, but I'm sick of this tendancy for people to insulate and repress their morality and empathy and call that 'enlightenment'.  That's not enlightenment, its psychosis.  Thats like the difference between Jesus and Manson. 

People build this little bubble for themselves and expend all their effort towards their own happiness while purposefully blinding themselves to the evil in the world.  Enlightenment does not include denial. 

Always remember that just because your circumstances are flush doesn't mean that the world is peachy keen.  There are in fact other people besides yourself, and most of them are having a really bad time.  There are people in foriegn countries that subsist on DIRT.  Thats what they eat.  Fucking cakes of dirt.  So you can sit here in America enjoying and overconsuming and polluting and bombarding yourself with affirmations of how great you are and how peachy everything is, or you can grow up and wake up to realize that that there is injustice in the world, and there is work to be done. 



Edited by DoctorJ (06/30/06 05:47 PM)


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5807383 - 06/30/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"""I always thought of Jesus as the universal metaphor of the snake eating its own tail. The universe consumes itself to keep moving. The human species had to consume their own god to evolve (no pun intended) to the next phase."""

but if you consume yourself wahts left?


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5807515 - 06/30/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:why is it that people can't take responsibility for the destructive acts they have committed against themselves and others? 

Ego says "I must be right!  I have to be right, which makes others wrong.  Therefore I exist as this: the definition of correct,"  But of course that's not quite how it works :smile:  But that's how.  It is true, we do need to take responsibility for the suffering we have caused.  But it is not like we should get caught up in feeling terrible for it.  Accepting it and moving through it, flowing with life.  That is what it is all about.  It is taking responsibility yet seeing that suffering isn't God's punishment, it is your own deal and it's only as much punishment as you make it.  Feeling happy or sad or torturous isn't what is important, it is feeling.

Of course there is wrong in the world!  God is weak here!  Earth is a Luciferian planet, and thus is ultimately doomed unless it reforms.  It really is that simple.  You think God cares if this planet destroys itself?  He has a zillion planets! 

I wouldn't say God cares.  You are absolutely right, it is up to us.  But if we are willing to take these steps towards salvation, God is there to help and guide us every single step.  It's not like God is like, "Fuck off heathens," but more like, "If you decide to seek me, I will guide you into my arms."

Its up to us, the residents.  We can save this place or we can be irresponsible little brats and flush the whole thing down the shitter. 

Karma is God's law.  You can dodge it for awhile, but if you got warrants they will catch up to you. 

Hells yes, but it's not like this karma load is a bad thing or punishment by any means.  It is God's divine gift to help us grow and transcend that.

I'm sorry if your own guilt won't allow you to recognize that there is a price to be paid for the wrongs we as humans have committed.  But that's the harsh truth:  Gad ain't payin your way: YOU ARE. 

Unless you become self-sufficient, you will always be in debt and hence always a slave.  True freedom comes from mindful self-mastery, not mindless self-indulgence.  Welcome to the real world, hippy :rofl:

:smile:

sorry to be harsh, but I'm sick of this tendancy for people to insulate and repress their morality and empathy and call that 'enlightenment'.  That's not enlightenment, its psychosis.  Thats like the difference between Jesus and Manson. 

Are you talking about me?  I have been tossing around the word enlightenment here and there in my posts, which is of course silly :smile:  It really is nice to care for others and be a force for peace.  Does that mean that peace is right?  I don't know.  Right and wrong are certainly illusional, but that doesn't mean we just go around killing people.  I guess it's just having compassion and letting the wisdom of the moment guide you.  Be a force for compassion and peace always.  I agree, enlightenment has nothing to do with supressing anything, especially empathy.  Enlightenment is kind of like the big, big BIG empathy :smile:

People build this little bubble for themselves and expend all their effort towards their own happiness while purposefully blinding themselves to the evil in the world.  Enlightenment does not include denial. 

Yes, the personal self of course doesn't matter at all, not even the enlightened self.  Big self is what it's all about, getting people to stop caring about themselves all the time.  I just think it's silly to see God as so vengeful.  The big point is to follow and realize God, who will want to follow a God that is kicking them while they are down?

Always remember that just because your circumstances are flush doesn't mean that the world is peachy keen.  There are in fact other people besides yourself, and most of them are having a really bad time.  There are people in foriegn countries that subsist on DIRT.  Thats what they eat.  Fucking cakes of dirt.  So you can sit here in America enjoying and overconsuming and polluting and bombarding yourself with affirmations of how great you are and how peachy everything is, or you can grow up and wake up to realize that that there is injustice in the world, and there is work to be done. 

Yes, much work!  Meditate and pray always for peace.  Just because others don't have adequate food and shelter doesn't mean we can't enjoy ours.  Ignoring the suffering of others is pointless too, of course.  Be a fountain of peace always, spread peace.  It is entirely within our possibility to end this suffering.






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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5807597 - 06/30/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ego says "I must be right! I have to be right, which makes others wrong. Therefore I exist as this: the definition of correct," But of course that's not quite how it works But that's how. It is true, we do need to take responsibility for the suffering we have caused. But it is not like we should get caught up in feeling terrible for it. Accepting it and moving through it, flowing with life. That is what it is all about. It is taking responsibility yet seeing that suffering isn't God's punishment, it is your own deal and it's only as much punishment as you make it. Feeling happy or sad or torturous isn't what is important, it is feeling.




some egos are more in tune with God than others. The ego itself is not wrong, merely the improper application of ego is wrong. Its like Ayn Rand once wrote: "Money is not inherently evil just because people use it to do evil things."

Just because there is no universal right and wrong (due to the fact that the universe is in a constant state of flux) does not mean that right and wrong do not exist within the parameters of the situation at hand. Situational ethics. Moral compass. Right and wrong are illusions? Thats a fuckin cop-out. Grow up or get chopped down, man.

And yes, suffering is God's punishment! Its his way of teaching you not to be a fucking dumbass! You persist in being a complete moron, destroying yourself and everything around you, and God will punish you until there is nothing left to punish. He is not sentimental. If you get your shit together, great. If not, He ain't gonna cry at your funeral.

Of course, God's punishments are always with benign intentions. Think of it this way: How can someone learn Kung-Fu if they don't get their ass kicked by their teacher every now and then? How good will someone be in a fight if they've never once had their ass kicked before? Lemme, tell ya: Lotta peoples on this planet need a good ass-whuppin, dude. These people have so little self-discipline its fucking pathetic.

Put stress on a muscle in the right way, it gets stronger. God puts stress on us so we get stronger.

Quote:

Are you talking about me?




why, got a guilty subconscious? not everything is about you. Why are you asking me this question? you should ask yourself if the examples I gave fit your behavior. And if they do, then you got some work to do.

You can't just go out, do a bunch of fucked up shit, then 'forgive yourself' and go back to being happy. Thats fucked up and irrespponsible. You have to fix the problems you caused. You have to resore balance! God isn't going to do it for you. Why should He? Its your fucking problem that you created. God created you. His work is done. So solve your own fuckin problems and leave that nigga alone.

Quote:

Hells yes, but it's not like this karma load is a bad thing or punishment by any means.




yes, it is punishment. Much in the same way working off a credit card debt is punishment for a shopping spree. I don't know how to put it any more simply than that. You can sit there and deny to yourself the existence of the Dark side all you want; that doesn't make it go away. If you think that you can wish away the Devil, you are an idiot sitting on train tracks about to get squashed.

Quote:

Enlightenment is kind of like the big, big BIG empathy




its actually much more than that, but if thats all you can get a handle on, I'll leave you with your bottle while I go get a steak.

Quote:

Yes, much work! Meditate and pray always for peace.




Again, there's more to it than that. Meditation and Prayer are for the Self's well-being, mainly. In order to cure the ills of the world, you have to ACT. You can't just sit there hoping it will go away. "Evil to triumphs because good people do nothing."

Quote:

I just think it's silly to see God as so vengeful. The big point is to follow and realize God, who will want to follow a God that is kicking them while they are down?




God IS vengeful! I've witnessed His vengence! You fuck up, He'll getcha. Count on that. And who said following God was a choice? Actually, there is a choice: You can follow God, or you can cease to exist.

And let me ask you this: Who will want to follow a God who lets people get away with heinous crimes and doesn't punish criminals? You think God is some kind of cosmic pushover? You think that the victims of Criminals don't deserve Justice? Letting criminals off the hook without punishment is unfair to the victims. Perhaps if you ever were a victim, you'd understand this.


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5807711 - 06/30/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
some egos are more in tune with God than others.  The ego itself is not wrong, merely the improper application of ego is wrong.  Its like Ayn Rand once wrote:  "Money is not inherently evil just because people use it to do evil things." 

Just because there is no universal right and wrong (due to the fact that the universe is in a constant state of flux) does not mean that right and wrong do not exist within the parameters of the situation at hand.  Situational ethics.  Moral compass.  Right and wrong are illusions?  Thats a fuckin cop-out.  Grow up or get chopped down, man.

I guess it can be a cop-out if you make it one.  The thief is not wrong by stealing, he is just playing his part in the evolution of the world, just like everything.  If the thief decides he is wrong, then fine.  But there is no real objectivity, it is all okay.  Right and wrong exist, but only within the parameters of the mind, which we (as you must know) transcend.

And yes, suffering is God's punishment!  Its his way of teaching you not to be a fucking dumbass!  You persist in being a complete moron, destroying yourself and everything around you, and God will punish you until there is nothing left to punish.  He is not sentimental.  If you get your shit together, great.  If not, He ain't gonna cry at your funeral. 

Of course, God's punishments are always with benign intentions.  Think of it this way:  How can someone learn Kung-Fu if they don't get their ass kicked by their teacher every now and then?  How good will someone be in a fight if they've never once had their ass kicked before?  Lemme, tell ya:  Lotta peoples on this planet need a good ass-whuppin, dude.  These people have so little self-discipline its fucking pathetic. 

I guess if you choose to see it as a punishment then that's up to you.  I just think it's an opportunity for growth.  Kind of like you are saying, you've got to fall over sometimes to learn how to ride a bike :smile:  But it's not like gravity is punishing you for sucking at riding the bike.

Put stress on a muscle in the right way, it gets stronger.  God puts stress on us so we get stronger. 

Totally agree, but it's not a vengeful or angry stress.  It is a gift, not wrathful.

Quote:

Are you talking about me?




why, got a guilty subconscious?  not everything is about you.  Why are you asking me this question?  you should ask yourself if the examples I gave fit your behavior.  And if they do, then you got some work to do. 

Well, because I didn't see anyone saying anything about enlightenment between the post you mentioned it and your previous post.

You can't just go out, do a bunch of fucked up shit, then 'forgive yourself' and go back to being happy.  Thats fucked up and irrespponsible.  You have to fix the problems you caused.  You have to resore balance!  God isn't going to do it for you.  Why should He?  Its your fucking problem that you created.  God created you.  His work is done.  So solve your own fuckin problems and leave that nigga alone. 

You're right, God won't do it for us but he is always helping, guiding.  It's not like he is some unresponsive dick.  When you are looking for help and ask sincerely, he will help you.  God wants us to find happiness and peace within him, he helps us.

Quote:

Hells yes, but it's not like this karma load is a bad thing or punishment by any means.




yes, it is punishment.  Much in the same way working off a credit card debt is punishment for a shopping spree.  I don't know how to put it any more simply than that.  You can sit there and deny to yourself the existence of the Dark side all you want; that doesn't make it go away.  If you think that you can wish away the Devil, you are an idiot sitting on train tracks about to get squashed. 

Hmm, I'm not Christian so I don't really believe in the devil.  What does God's punishment have to do with the devil anyway?  God's punishment is the devil?  Kind of paradoxical.

Quote:

Enlightenment is kind of like the big, big BIG empathy




its actually much more than that, but if thats all you can get a handle on, I'll leave you with your bottle while I go get a steak. 

Yes it's much more than that, which is why I said kind of like.  Nobody is going to describe it or understand it with the mind, it's kind of futile to say exactly what it is.

Quote:

Yes, much work! Meditate and pray always for peace.




Again, there's more to it than that.  Meditation and Prayer are for the Self's well-being, mainly.  In order to cure the ills of the world, you have to ACT.  You can't just sit there hoping it will go away.  "Evil to triumphs because good people do nothing." 

I guess prayer and meditation is my way of acting.  What do you suggest?  It isn't really feasible to go over to Africa and give everyone a big sandwich.  Or kill people who you think are wrong.  That is more like being a tool in the hand of your devil, wouldn't you say?  Jesus wouldn't go around killing people or telling people to fuck off because they are evil.  Why should any Christian do the same?

Quote:

I just think it's silly to see God as so vengeful. The big point is to follow and realize God, who will want to follow a God that is kicking them while they are down?




God IS vengeful!  I've witnessed His vengence!  You fuck up, He'll getcha.  Count on that.  And who said following God was a choice?  Actually, there is a choice:  You can follow God, or you can cease to exist. 

And let me ask you this:  Who will want to follow a God who lets people get away with heinous crimes and doesn't punish criminals?  You think God is some kind of cosmic pushover?  You think that the victims of Criminals don't deserve Justice?  Letting criminals off the hook without punishment is unfair to the victims.  Perhaps if you ever were a victim, you'd understand this.

Maybe you are right, I don't really see myself as a victim.  That's your choice, too.  We get our justice, I just don't see it as something that we deserve, like a belt whipping to keep everyone in line.  It is ourselves punishing ourselves, God is just helping us to grow.  I have to go bowling now, my roomie is waiting.  Peace :smile:






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Invisiblekake
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5807751 - 06/30/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry, but DoctorJ, you're starting to sound like a fucking quack. You claim to be one of Jesus's special servants, yet you go on and on about how God is going to punish without sympathy. You are confusing some components of psychology with acts of God. I don't read the Bible, and even I know you're a bit off course with your concept of God.

Chill the fuck out man, God is not your evil step father who hits you and tells you it will make you a man. God is not the one who dishes out the punishments. God is the one who is there to heal you and help you see your wrongdoings, to give you the courage to change and make things right.

Your ideas conflict severely.


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


Edited by kake (06/30/06 08:51 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5807786 - 06/30/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The thief is not wrong by stealing, he is just playing his part in the evolution of the world, just like everything. If the thief decides he is wrong, then fine. But there is no real objectivity, it is all okay




No, thieves are wrong.  Period.  I used to steal, and have paid 100x over for everything I have taken.  Now I don't steal.  I create my own wealth.  Everyone has the capability to make themselves wealthy without stealing or otherwise negatively effecting those around them.    Thus, those who choose to take what they need and desire from others instead of creating it for themselves are shirking their responsibility to both themselves and their environment.  For one thing, they are denying themselves the ability to create by instead choosing to commandeer what others have created.  For another thing, they are depriving others of what is rightfully theirs. 

The cat and the mouse are slaves to a system that forces them to be enemies.  You talk about transcending the mind, yet as long as you steal, you are a slave to your desires.  By taking what rightfully belongs to another, you are putting yourself in their debt, and thus denying yourself transcendence. 

Quote:

When you are looking for help and ask sincerely, he will help you.




he'll help me if I deserve help.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  You take some of the letters of my name and it says: "Just Wish".  Thats the way I see magic:  I make a wish, and if that wish is Just, then God and I can make it happen.  But if that Wish is unjust, it will never happen, at least not with God's blessing.  The absence of God's blessing in our actions creates karmic debt. 

I suppose that ringing up karmic debt is fine if you want to be trapped on earth for awhile.  But Earth won't last forever, and if you are still in debt when Earth is finally destroyed, kiss your ass goodbye.  Trust me, you don't want to go down with this ship.  You can borrow against Karma a little, but my advice is not to bite off more than you can chew, otherwise you will choke, and God will do nothing to save you.  He might even let off a wild cackle as you gasp for air and suffocate. 

Quote:

God's punishment is the devil? Kind of paradoxical.




Uhhhh....  thats exactly logical if you ask me.  Fuck God over, misappropriate His gifts, get sent to Hell.  Become the devil's bitch.  If God encompasses all that is, he encompasses both reard and punishment, good and bad.  You think God is powerless to hurt you?  :lol:  you're in for a nasty surprise. 

God will give you a lot of credit.  He'll let you dig a hole all the way to Hell, then laugh as the magma burns you alive. 

If you don't believe in the Devil, you haven't been out in the world enough.  The Devil resides in every scumsucking politician that's in it for the bucks.  He lives in the hearts of all those rich assholes who would rather drive an SUV than help the world out of its suffering.  Much like electrons, you cannot prove the existence of Satan, but you can easily see his influence over the world. 

IMO, Satan is that little voice inside everyone that says: "There are no consequences for your actions.  Go apeshit." 

If this were a perfect world, going apeshit might be acceptable.  But this ain't no perfect orld.  You are tied to a bunch of separate egos and everything you do effects them.  You have to let this realization overcome Satan's advice. 

Quote:

Maybe you are right, I don't really see myself as a victim. That's your choice, too.




:rolleyes:  give me a fuckin break.  I chose to be a victim.  I invited a bunch of thugs over to my house and told them to take all my money, gangbang my girlfriend, and take a piss over all my work. 

I mean come on, when you see some 10 year old kid crying because some crackhead stole his bike, do you think :"Well, that kid chose that, its his fault."  Hell no!  You think : "Man, I hope they get the asshole that chose to take that kid's bike and buy crack with it instead of getting a job and buying his crack with earned money, like a responsible human being." 

Quote:

I guess prayer and meditation is my way of acting. What do you suggest? It isn't really feasible to go over to Africa and give everyone a big sandwich. Or kill people who you think are wrong. That is more like being a tool in the hand of your devil, wouldn't you say? Jesus wouldn't go around killing people or telling people to fuck off because they are evil. Why should any Christian do the same?




prayer and meditation seem like your way of acting irresponsible to me. 

We may not be able to give everyone in Africa a big sandwich, but we can consume less sandwiches.  We can not waste the earth's resources so that there are plenty to go around!  Seriously, doesn't it seem wrong to you, how fat people are in this country when compared to the emaciated children of Africa?  Don't you realize that's cause and effect? 

It doesn't so much piss me off that Americans have wealth, but that they squander it on things that are unimportant.  While more important deeds remain undone.  People who overindulge while their neighbor starves to death are fucking repulsive to me.  Where is the empathy in that? 

And yes, actually Jesus did tell people off.  The money changers in the temple for instance.  He lit a fire underneath the Pharisees' asses! 

And hey, Jesus may not have killed people, but if I ever saw a girl getting raped in a back alley, I wouldn't let Jesus's example stop me from cutting the guy's dick off with my trusty switchblade.  Jesus was a great guy and he did a good job for that particular life, but you said yourself that there is no objective right and wrong, so maybe its time for the Godly to stop forgiving, stop turning the other cheek, and stand up and fight for what is right! 

We wouldn't even exist in a country where we are free to have this conversation if men with balls hadn't stood up and valiantly fought against tyranny and opression to found this great nation. 




Anyway, my main point is simply this:  You have a Higher Destiny and a Lower Fate. 

Your Higher Destiny will not be handed to you.  You must earn it through patience, self-sacrifice, love, and rightful actions. 

If you do not achieve your Higher Destiny, you will be subject to your Lower Fate.  Lower Fates don't tend to be pretty.  Live up to your Destiny, or be subject to your Fate. 

"Time has taken its toll on you
the lines that crack your face.
Famine your body it has worn through
Withered in every place
Pestilence for what you have to endure
For what you have put others through.
Death- deliverance, for you for sure,
Now there's nothing you can do."


Edited by DoctorJ (06/30/06 09:46 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5807827 - 06/30/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I thought you were banned


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Basilides]
    #5807843 - 06/30/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you are little verbose in your verbage


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: kake]
    #5807935 - 06/30/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kake said:
Sorry, but DoctorJ, you're starting to sound like a fucking quack. You claim to be one of Jesus's special servants, yet you go on and on about how God is going to punish without sympathy. You are confusing some components of psychology with acts of God. I don't read the Bible, and even I know you're a bit off course with your concept of God.

Chill the fuck out man, God is not your evil step father who hits you and tells you it will make you a man. God is not the one who dishes out the punishments. God is the one who is there to heal you and help you see your wrongdoings, to give you the courage to change and make things right.

Your ideas conflict severely.




My ideas are merely reflections of a complex Reality. Its not my fault that the Universe does not conform to the limits of Human rationality.

Sure, God is mainly a benevolent Force.

But is not God the Source of All? Everything that exists, from Light to Shadow?

I have no doubt that Good is the prevalent Force in God's makeup. But Evil comes from God in a way as well. It comes from the Creations of God that have disobeyed Him.

Satanism is putting one's own Will above God's wishes. It is the perversion of letting the elements rule the Spirit.

But God permits this, to a certain extent. Though he could stop it, He allows these Evil things to happen.

How could you say that God is Good and nothing but? To say that is to say that everything which is NOT good is from another source besides God. Which would make God not the Source of All, but merely one influence in a system of influences.

If God is omniscient, omnipresent, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then He is the Source of everything that exists, both Good and Evil, Reward and Punishment, Death and Life.

Though God was behind the Renaissance, he was also behind the Holocaust. I know, this is a difficult thing to swallow. But though I am presented with this evidence, my faith makes me believe that God is ultimately Good, Just, True, Light. Of course there is Salvation. But not before the punishment handed down by Justice.

Now, I am an anarchist myself, ideally, and many people have misinterpreted this to mean that I advocate chaos. I do not. I advocate a systematic unlocking of more and more freedom as people gain the wisdom to use it properly. Obviously, Anarchy is the ultimate goal of this process.

Anarchy would only work if the beings of this planet were spiritually and technologically advanced enough to handle it. Thus, we cannot unlock too much freedom at once. Its a gradual process that has to occur over a long time, otherwise, there WILL be chaos.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5808058 - 06/30/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hell im not saying there are no right and wrong here on earth! I was just trying to say that we have caused the world to be the way it is from are beliefs. If you truly believe that there is a devil than yes there there probably is one for you. Plus we should all believe in what we want to believe and have faith in it and who cares what anyone thinks.


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5808117 - 06/30/06 11:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the bible is a road map to hell...

its a bunch of crap

mumbo gumbo

doesn't make any sense unless you

expect it too


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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Schwammel]
    #5808225 - 07/01/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The bible is a very good thing to read its just that the information is taken literally and not what it is really trying to tell. True religion is not repressive, as life itself is not. When Christ spoke he did so in the context of his times, using the symbolism and vocabulary that made sense to a particular people in a particular period of history, using are terms. He began with there beliefs, and using their references tried to lead them into freer realms of understanding.

With every translation the bible has changed its meaning because of the language of the times. Christ spoke in terms of good and bad spirits because these represented the peoples beliefs. In their terms he showed them that "bad" spirits could be vanquished. But these were, then symbols accepted as realities by the people- sometimes for quite "normal" disease and human condition.


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5808236 - 07/01/06 12:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
The cat and the mouse are slaves to a system that forces them to be enemies.  You talk about transcending the mind, yet as long as you steal, you are a slave to your desires.  By taking what rightfully belongs to another, you are putting yourself in their debt, and thus denying yourself transcendence. 

I agree, but the point is that if that's the choice of the thief.  And if going through what he is going to go through because of that karmically is the only way for him to find out that he is interested in God and salvation, then that's okay.  If that is what he is doing, it is what he needs to evolve spiritually.  I don't mean to encourage theft by any means, it's just that it is not our place to judge others, or condemn them.

he'll help me if I deserve help.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  You take some of the letters of my name and it says: "Just Wish".  Thats the way I see magic:  I make a wish, and if that wish is Just, then God and I can make it happen.  But if that Wish is unjust, it will never happen, at least not with God's blessing.  The absence of God's blessing in our actions creates karmic debt. 

I suppose that ringing up karmic debt is fine if you want to be trapped on earth for awhile.  But Earth won't last forever, and if you are still in debt when Earth is finally destroyed, kiss your ass goodbye.  Trust me, you don't want to go down with this ship.  You can borrow against Karma a little, but my advice is not to bite off more than you can chew, otherwise you will choke, and God will do nothing to save you.  He might even let off a wild cackle as you gasp for air and suffocate. 

Yes, the point isn't praying for personal things.  It's praying sincerely and with faith for an end to suffering and hunger, deprivation from God, etc.  Why would such selfless prayers add to karmic debt?  You are right, it doesn't always happen.  It has to do with faith.  The more faith you have, the less you have to expect God to answer any prayer, because what is right will be done.  Prayer becomes not greedily asking, and more the intention that we are open to God and his help for us all evolve to as quickly and smoothly as possible.  When you are just asking from a space of humility and faith, it doesn't matter if it is fulfilled.  Just praying itself is important.

I think this all boils down to a big matter of preference.  We just both see God differently, and that's okay too because just like everything else we are here to help everyone in our own ways.


If this were a perfect world, going apeshit might be acceptable.  But this ain't no perfect orld.  You are tied to a bunch of separate egos and everything you do effects them.  You have to let this realization overcome Satan's advice. 

I agree.  Being selfless and helping others is far more important than your individual self could ever be.  It's just that some people have to make lots of choices and do lots of growing before they can see that.

Quote:

Maybe you are right, I don't really see myself as a victim. That's your choice, too.




:rolleyes:  give me a fuckin break.  I chose to be a victim.  I invited a bunch of thugs over to my house and told them to take all my money, gangbang my girlfriend, and take a piss over all my work. 

That sucks, but did choose every decision leading up to that karmically, and it is your choice how to feel about the entire thing.  I don't mean to imply that you have to just be like, "Well, that's ok."  But why see yourself as a victim of God's wrath?  If that is what you need for your motivation to help selflessly then that is okay, but I just don't want to envision God that way.  I guess to me it is the difference between reward based and punishment based growth. 

We may not be able to give everyone in Africa a big sandwich, but we can consume less sandwiches.  We can not waste the earth's resources so that there are plenty to go around!  Seriously, doesn't it seem wrong to you, how fat people are in this country when compared to the emaciated children of Africa?  Don't you realize that's cause and effect? 

I agree that we can consume less and such.  The reason I say right and wrong don't exist is because it is just a creation of the mind which is confined by the dream-world it makes for itself.  What we really truly are is so beyond that.  But for now we are in this dream world and it's up to you to define it if you want.  It's not that it's a waste to help others.  I quite agree with you, helping others is great.  Be the change you want to see in others.

And hey, Jesus may not have killed people, but if I ever saw a girl getting raped in a back alley, I wouldn't let Jesus's example stop me from cutting the guy's dick off with my trusty switchblade.  Jesus was a great guy and he did a good job for that particular life, but you said yourself that there is no objective right and wrong, so maybe its time for the Godly to stop forgiving, stop turning the other cheek, and stand up and fight for what is right!

That's your choice.  Wouldn't this also rack up your karmic debt (much more than praying for the liberation and end to suffering of others ever could)?

Your Higher Destiny will not be handed to you.  You must earn it through patience, self-sacrifice, love, and rightful actions.

Couldn't agree more :smile: 

If you do not achieve your Higher Destiny, you will be subject to your Lower Fate.  Lower Fates don't tend to be pretty.  Live up to your Destiny, or be subject to your Fate. 

So it's best to help as many people as possible to achieve that.  We all can work together to do that.  And what's so great is that there can be any different number of ways of interpreting that.  This is kind of the point that I am making:  All of the perspectives and ways of looking at God and what is right and wrong are all held within the individual mind.  What's God to you isn't God to me.  It's entirely personal.  Within the confines of language, semantics and mind there is no right and wrong.  It is what is illusional.  Right to you doesn't mean much to me, and we both transcend rightness, wrongness, the desire to enforce rightness and the desire to escape definition (if we have decided to create any of that).





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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5809296 - 07/01/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

twelvelookslikeu said:
Hell im not saying there are no right and wrong here on earth! I was just trying to say that we have caused the world to be the way it is from are beliefs. If you truly believe that there is a devil than yes there there probably is one for you. Plus we should all believe in what we want to believe and have faith in it and who cares what anyone thinks.




In a higher dimension, you are correct. 

But you must remember our bodies are currently confined within the Newtonian Universe.  Hence we must observe its rules. 

Now, I happen to metaphysically agree with a lot of what you and THATIAM are saying. 

But, I have learned the hard way that when you go aroun saying shit like that, people tend to misiniterpret you and use your words as justification to go do a bunch of fucked up shit that hurts not only themselves, but innocent people as well.  The innocent do not deserve to suffer for the crimes of the ignorant. 

I have always had this problem with communication.  I speak from a very high level of awareness, therefore my statements can be interpreted in a lot of different ways.  But I usually have a specific meaning in mind when I speak. 

People choose to ignore this meaning and instead assign their own meaning to what I say.  They aren't happy with what I mean, so they tack their own meaning over mine and use it as justification to continue being the fuckups that they are.  They are afraid to grow, so everything I say to them serves as justification for their stagnation. 

often, I have considered deleting my account here and shutting the hell up.  Actually, I'm almost sure there will come a point in my life where I will stop writing and speaking entirely.  I've come to realize that the words which come out of me are just another thing that can be held against me by my enemies.  That and I have come to seriously doubt the average person's capability to interpret what I have said correctly. 

Pretty much every piece of spiritual wisdom I have dropped on this planet has been misinterpreted and used against me.  People misappropriate my gifts, and use them against me and my agenda.  So guess what?  NO MORE GIFTS :tongue:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5809324 - 07/01/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

A word about guilt:

many people have sinned against me and felt guilty. 

some of my more disobedient servants have told these people not to feel guilty; that guilt is just a waste of time and energy.  "Throw the guilt away, it doesn't do anyone any good." :rolleyes:  In other words, "I'm OK, you're OK."  Pop psychology bullshit. 

Guilt has purpose, as do all things that exist. 

Its supposed to be an internal force that drives you to set right what you have done wrong.  If you feel guilty about something you have done, that's God's way of telling you that you fucked up and now you gotta fix shit. 

Sure, you can ignore guilt in the same way that you ignore bills that stack up.  You can get away with not paying your bills for while.  But sooner or later, the electric company will cut your power, your phone will get disconnected, your cable TV will get shut down, and your credit cards will become useless pieces of plastic. 

Keep sinning against what is Right, and soon all your purchases will be denied, your transactions will not be approved.  It really is that simple.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5809325 - 07/01/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I have never read all of the bible and most likely never will. Christianity is a religion of metaphores and riddles. That is not to say it is a bad thing, but its original meaning has been lost in so much false Christianity, that it has been ruined.

It seems like too many of its followers can not rise above the concepts of "good" and "evil". Christ is a metaphore for the universe. Satan seems to be a metaphore for ignorance and spiritual blindness. What lies beneath the viel.

While I believe Christianity can be an actual form of enlightenment, it seems to be a crutch for many who are materialistic in nature. It seems to be used as a false way for many to put a concrete justification of their firm addiction to a reality they are afraid to shatter. This is why some people convienintly would say it is God's will that America invades Iraq for its oil. Is this God talking or is it a weak minded person using a false spirituality to re-enforce their own comfort zone?

Christ is a great concept, but it is only a name. We are all entitled to enlightenment, even if we never heard the name Christ. Many of us who are more in tune with Earth based religions accept others belief in Christ, but find it rather disturbing when Christian fanatics have no tolorance of our path.

And Christians who believe that we need to use the Earth's resources because Christ will sweep them away are disrespectful of the mother we all are part of. Shame on them...


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5809329 - 07/01/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

no one is entitled to enlightenment.

no one is entitled to anything.

Everything you get must be earned, including enlightenment. Otherwise, you wouldn't appreciate it.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5809342 - 07/01/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sure they are, weather you have to work for it or not, everybody has a portal to a higher truth and everyone is entitled...


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5809391 - 07/01/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

a sense of entitlement is the basis for all thievery and treachery in the world. 

"I deserve to be a millionaire, despite the fact that I have not earned a million dollars.  Therefore, I will steal a million dollars from the Salvation Army.  Fuck them, its their fault I'm not a millionaire!  Thats why they have a million dollars and I don't.  I am more important than they.  So I'm going to steal from charity and buy myself a sportscar.  Because I fuckin deserve it.  I'm ENTITLED."

thats satan's advice.  You can take that road if you want to, but I don't think you'll like where it ends.  :smirk:


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5809420 - 07/01/06 11:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Am I taking the road of Satan? What kind of silly bullshit is that? Every revelation I have gotten has been through a shattering of the viel and could be described as hard work. What have I stolen?

How does one get to be so worthy a candidtae for enlightenment? Holy shit, what are you? The Pat Robertson of the Shroomery forum?

You are no better or worse than any other. Just accept that. Surrender to the fact that those that you judge (Jesus said don't judge) are you brothers and sisters too. And respect the Earth.


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5809510 - 07/01/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Everyone deserves the right to seek enlightenment. But it is something you have to actually do something about to get. If it is not important to you, and you choose to throw away that right, then it is your choice. If you choose to spiral into madness and selfishness, then that is your choice. But don't expect to get enlightenment from that just because you deserve it. I think this is close to what we all are saying.

The opportunity is there, but if you decide to throw that away then you aren't going to get anything. Throwing it away is thievery, selfishness, etc. Deciding to seek that gift is not throwing it away. When finding enlightenment is the most important thing and stays the most important thing, that's when you will find it. And that will take you for a ride. We all deserve the right to seek, and when we deserve enlightenment it is given.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5809562 - 07/01/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You know, I've really helped you guys out enough. 

I've spent the majority of my morning trying to make you see the Truth. 

You wanna keep denying Reality, go ahead.  Be my guest. 

Here, take my infinite credit card.  Ring yourself up a nice debt.  Seriously, you deserve it!  Take it!  You are only making yourself a slave, by putting yourself so far in God's debt.  I'm sure He'll be glad to have a sinner as a slave so deeply indebt that he'll never be able to repay it. 

For everything you take, 100x more will be taken from you.  You think you fucked God by running off with the loan he gave you?  Nah, nigga.  You fucked yourself.  You think God gave you a good deal?  :lol:  You took out a loan with infinity interest :rofl:  He owns you now!  FOREVER! 

Take all the Gold.  You're gonna need it to pay your way through hell, dumbass.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5809616 - 07/01/06 12:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
You know, I've really helped you guys out enough. 

I've spent the majority of my morning trying to make you see the Truth. 

You wanna keep denying Reality, go ahead.  Be my guest. 

Here, take my infinite credit card.  Ring yourself up a nice debt.  Seriously, you deserve it!  Take it!  You are only making yourself a slave, by putting yourself so far in God's debt.  I'm sure He'll be glad to have a sinner as a slave so deeply indebt that he'll never be able to repay it. 

For everything you take, 100x more will be taken from you.  You think you fucked God by running off with the loan he gave you?  Nah, nigga.  You fucked yourself.  You think God gave you a good deal?  :lol:  You took out a loan with infinity interest :rofl:  He owns you now!  FOREVER! 

Take all the Gold.  You're gonna need it to pay your way through hell, dumbass.




Once again, we have a Christian re-creating God in his owm image!


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5809622 - 07/01/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

let me say this:

many of us here on Earth are from a place where there are no consequences for our behavior. 

But Earth is not that place!  There are rules here, and consequences for our actions. 

Earth is like a work release program.  You get sucked into Earth's Karmic web by coming here and not observing the rules of this particular game. 

Only the virtuous can escape Earth's karmic gravity.  Those who are not virtuous are just adding more time to their sentence. 

So if, you have found yourself entagled on Earth, the way out is simple:  be a good person.  Get out on good behavior. 

Just because you can get away with something for awhile does not mean you will ultimately get away with it.  God is fuckin with you!  He wants to see how far you'll go with his credit, so he can judhe what kind of person you are!  Thats how he decides who he wants to keep around and who gets deleted. 

God is the Alpha and the Omega.  You think he can't end you, or anything else he wants to end?  :rofl: 

Sinners dig their own grave.  Once they've gotten deep enough, God caps them and throws em in.  He is the Original Gangster, you know :wink:

You think I'm not compassionate by telling you this?  I'm warning you!  I don't want to see you go down that road because I fucking care about you.  Maybe I shouldn't, but I do. 

No one can escape God's Justice.  No one is always above Karma. 

Myself and others of the Melchizedek order have completed these lessons, and though we are free to move on to much better places, we choose to come back to this prison so we can help others achieve their true freedom! 

Don't confuse the present with the Future, honey!  The Earth isn't free just yet, that's going to take a long time and a lot of hard work.  The more people keep screwqing with God's plan, the longer it will take to reach paradise!  IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE!


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5809630 - 07/01/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:



No one can escape God's Justice.  No one is always above Karma. 





With your cynical and somewhat self rightious attitude, you're gonna have some explaining to do yourself  :shocked:


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5809647 - 07/01/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

thatiAM said:
Everyone deserves the right to seek enlightenment. But it is something you have to actually do something about to get. If it is not important to you, and you choose to throw away that right, then it is your choice. If you choose to spiral into madness and selfishness, then that is your choice. But don't expect to get enlightenment from that just because you deserve it. I think this is close to what we all are saying.

The opportunity is there, but if you decide to throw that away then you aren't going to get anything. Throwing it away is thievery, selfishness, etc. Deciding to seek that gift is not throwing it away. When finding enlightenment is the most important thing and stays the most important thing, that's when you will find it. And that will take you for a ride. We all deserve the right to seek, and when we deserve enlightenment it is given.




I have no problems with that...


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5809762 - 07/01/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mourningdove said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:



No one can escape God's Justice.  No one is always above Karma. 





With your cynical and somewhat self rightious attitude, you're gonna have some explaining to do yourself  :shocked:




I'm not too worried about it, to tell you the truth.  I have spent quite a lot of time and effort thinking about whether or not I SHOULD BE worried about it, though.  Don't even think for a second that I have excluded myself from that responsibility.  I take that VERY seriously.  Due to the amount of careful consideration I give to as to the validity of both myself and others' opinions, I'm really more worried about whether OTHERS take their responsibility to self-scrutinize seriously. 

nevertheless, I have faith in both God and myself, not to mention the majority of humanity as well.  I even have faith that Lucifer himself might straighten up and fly right and make it out with the rest of us. 

so, if I am wrong, then God can strike me down.  I wouldn't want to be wrong against Him.  I'd rather be dead.  If I have committed a crime, then let it be committed against me.  I have a pretty clean conscience in this area.  Never killed anybody never, raped anybody, never fucked anyone over in my life that didn't have it comin to em. I'll stand before the one True God without fear.  I'll accept what he hands me, whatever it may be.  I have faith that even the lowliest sinner can find redemption in God.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5809973 - 07/01/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

Mourningdove said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:



No one can escape God's Justice.  No one is always above Karma. 





With your cynical and somewhat self rightious attitude, you're gonna have some explaining to do yourself  :shocked:




I'm not too worried about it, to tell you the truth.  I have spent quite a lot of time and effort thinking about whether or not I SHOULD BE worried about it, though.  Don't even think for a second that I have excluded myself from that responsibility.  I take that VERY seriously.  Due to the amount of careful consideration I give to as to the validity of both myself and others' opinions, I'm really more worried about whether OTHERS take their responsibility to self-scrutinize seriously. 

nevertheless, I have faith in both God and myself, not to mention the majority of humanity as well.  I even have faith that Lucifer himself might straighten up and fly right and make it out with the rest of us. 

so, if I am wrong, then God can strike me down.  I wouldn't want to be wrong against Him.  I'd rather be dead.  If I have committed a crime, then let it be committed against me.  I have a pretty clean conscience in this area.  Never killed anybody never, raped anybody, never fucked anyone over in my life that didn't have it comin to em. I'll stand before the one True God without fear.  I'll accept what he hands me, whatever it may be.  I have faith that even the lowliest sinner can find redemption in God.




I think that you will find peace and fullfillment with your God if you can accept that others have found fullfilling spiritual paths that are not born of Christianity.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5810050 - 07/01/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think you don't know what the hell I am talking about.

I study and respect all religions. Be speaking in christian terms, I am merely communicating in a language that Americans can understand.

Have you read my "My Personal Quest for God" thread? If you had, you would know that I have a deep understanding and rspect for all religions, unless they are simply untrue.

perhaps you should try understanding my perspective before judging it. I've made over 8,000 posts here, many of them involving spirituality and philosophy. So get crackin', mrs character judge. You have a lot of evidence to examine before leaping to conclusions.


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5810157 - 07/01/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I kind of understand more what DoctorJ is saying, it is up to US to DO something about our spirituality and practice if we want liberation.  We can't just sit around and wait to die, then expect some heaven.  Selfish acts lead to suffering, which can lead to more selfish acts and becoming blind of our duty to practice selfless action and continue on the path towards God.

It is why selfish acts lead to suffering and aren't acceptable if you expect enlightenment.  It is okay but that's in the grand scope of okayness and God, which we are all inseparable from.  Here on Earth, if you are wanting happiness then it is not okay to continue to avoid your destiny (which is God realization).  But ultimately it is your choice to seek God or ignore it, and risk falling into pits of despair and self-replicating suffering.  God will help you out when you truly realize the necessity of seeking him, but you can't expect enlightenment over night.

It is up to us to actually pursue God.  My way of doing that is through prayer, meditation, contemplation.  And this discussion was enjoyable and has helped me to learn some.

Edit:  And it's not specific to any one religion or path, it's just that you need some kind of frame for the point of what is being discussed.  The frame is sometimes necessary to communicate on this silly dream-world  :ooo:


Edited by thatiAM (07/01/06 03:51 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: thatiAM]
    #5810198 - 07/01/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:
Everything you get must be earned, including enlightenment. Otherwise, you wouldn't appreciate it.

Can justification be earned? are you teaching that a man can be "good enough" to merit justification? What is the basis of justification according to your theology?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5810291 - 07/01/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

justification of what?

justification for one's own actions is in general earned by being in accordance with what is right for all people. No one's perspective can be left out in the definition of right and wrong. This is something I have learned from Jefferson.

Were they justified in starting the revolution? Of course they were! Their government had screwed them over and thus invalidated their contract. Jefferson said that The government's authority is derived by consent of the governed people. Once there is no longer consent, the government's authority is invalidated.

Of course, Jefferson wasn't all right. Sometimes, the people don't know what is best for them, and thus can't act in their own interest properly. But this is almost always the government's fault for withholding information. That's why there has to be honesty between the people and their rulers.

Also, sometimes people need to get what they deserve instead of getting what they want all the time. Of course, the convicted killer does not consent to being put to death by the state! But that's tough titty. He defaulted on the 'Thou shalt not Kill' clause, and thus invited his own death by a jury of his peers.

But back on topic, how does one justify one's own personal actions? A difficult question, and one I have struggled with myself quite a bit.

Mainly because of my experiences in life and my Father's teachings, I have a strong inner drive for balance. When I see imbalance and injustice in the world, it is in my nature to strive to correct it, even at great personal cost. I can't bear to see people getting screwed over. It totally grinds my gears. Thats why I've realized that God put me here to do Justice.

Firstly, I have done this in my own life. I always strive to be fair in my dealings with others. Thats why I sleep so well at night. It comes from the inner peace of knowing that I didn't put any suffering in the world today. I helped the best I could.

Sometimes, my own ignorance keeps me from understanding what the world needs, and I screw people over without realizing it. For this, I always take responsibility, go back and try to clean up whatver messes I've made as best I can.

anyway, good intentions often don't pan out when there is no wisdom in the method of their employment. Thus, I have sought to gain wisdom so I can communicate the paradise inside to the Outer Reality. I like to think I get a little better at it every day. Hopefully, we all do.

So, ultimately I would say that justification comes from Light and Wisdom. Find light and wisdom, and you will have the voice of Justice on your shoulder.

In order to see if I would be justified in doing something, the proposed behavior must go through a thought loop which is a series of questions I must answer as truthfully as I can:

Would it help? (First do no harm)

Would it help the right people, the ones who deserve help?

Would it restore balance, or would it create imbalance?

would it cause pain and suffering that is undue?

would it ultimately bring out an outcome that is acceptable by all people invloved?

and so on and so forth.

The fact of the matter is that I can't tell you how actions are justified because I really haven't even completely figured it out yet. Thats why I frequently choose to do nothing! I'd rather do nothing than the wrong thing! Instead, I'll sit back and learn from other's mistakes. Sometimes, I even learn from my own mistakes.

There are some folks on this planet who say that no action is justified! I haven't ruled out that possibility, I can indeed see its validity. After all, ever action has ramifications that we aren't completely aware of! A butterfly flapping its wings in San Francisco could cause a Tsunami in Asia! That's why I choose to tread carefylly! I'm not trying to cause tsunamis, I just want to steady the poor bastards who are about to fall off their tightrope!


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5810393 - 07/01/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

justification of what?

Justification before God. Not justification for one's own actions.

What is your theology concerning how a person who lacks the perfect righteousness required by God can be justified with God? This is a basic question.
What is the basis of justification according to your theology?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5810567 - 07/01/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I still don't think I quite understand your question.

Do you mean, how can I stand before God and know that I was just in what I did here on Earth?

Well, I suppose he would have to tell me for me to know!

When I die, and go before God, here is what I will say:

"I tried, father. I sincerely tried with everything I have. Did I help? All I ever wanted was to help. I know that I don't know eveything, but I tried my hardest to understand as best I could and apply what I'd learned as best as I could. All I ever wanted was what is best for everyone. I tried so hard, father. I spilled my own blood, sweat and tears all over the ground. I gave until it hurt and then some. Within the confines of my imperfect human vessel, I did whatever I could to make things right. I didn't use force or treachery in your name. I used a light touch in my dealings with the world. I yielded whenever I could, and I stood up for what is right, just, and true. I always kept fairness and balance close to my heart. I tried not to judge, but I did my best to keep the demons from running amok and slaughtering the innocent. I did the best I could with what you gave me, Lord. Was my performance to your liking? I sincerely hope so, my Lord. What else now would you have me do, Sir? "

You have no idea how sincerely I mean those words. In my life, I have been shown both the Wonders and Horrors of God's Reality, and I can think of no other Royal Family that I would rather serve. I know this sounds corny, but He is my Lord, he gave me the freedom to think and behave autonomously and I respect him to the utmost for that. He created everything that exists, and I have no choice but to tip my hat to him. My highest aspiration is to be like God in understanding God and putting the powers he has granted me to good use. Thats why I have spent the majority of my life trying to understand God and his ways, and put myself in tune with Him.

and when I have made my appeal before God, he will hand me his verdict. I have no idea what that verdict will be, but I have faith that I will get what I deserve, whatever that may be. He knows me, he knows who I am, the forces that drive my behavior, the situations I have been thrown into and forced to react to. I have faith in His ability to know whether or not I did what I was supposed to do.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5810602 - 07/01/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I think you don't know what the hell I am talking about.

I study and respect all religions. Be speaking in christian terms, I am merely communicating in a language that Americans can understand.

Have you read my "My Personal Quest for God" thread? If you had, you would know that I have a deep understanding and rspect for all religions, unless they are simply untrue.

perhaps you should try understanding my perspective before judging it. I've made over 8,000 posts here, many of them involving spirituality and philosophy. So get crackin', mrs character judge. You have a lot of evidence to examine before leaping to conclusions.




I'm not gonna read your 8000 posts. But I do find some value in what you say. I have a problem with the Satan talk which comes off as judgemental preaching. I don't think it helps to throw static conceps like good and evil at people. I think defining things as opposites may be a more accurate description of what is a pretty complex universe.

And not all Americans have to be preached to in "Christian" terms. You seem to be a guy in conflict with his anger, which is fine. We all have such obsticles to overcome. I guess I get defensive because far too many Christians I have met seem to be consumed with a hate like insecurity of their own faith. I am not saying that you are one of those people, you say many valuable things, but I don't see how judgemental preaching really helps a lot of people with their spirituality.

Anyway, thanks for some of your perspectives, they are interesting...


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5810659 - 07/01/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I still don't think I quite understand your question.

Do you mean, how can I stand before God and know that I was just in what I did here on Earth?

Well, I suppose he would have to tell me for me to know!

When I die, and go before God, here is what I will say:

"I tried, father. I sincerely tried with everything I have. Did I help? All I ever wanted was to help. I know that I don't know eveything, but I tried my hardest to understand as best I could and apply what I'd learned as best as I could. All I ever wanted was what is best for everyone. I tried so hard, father. I spilled my own blood, sweat and tears all over the ground. I gave until it hurt and then some. Within the confines of my imperfect human vessel, I did whatever I could to make things right. I didn't use force or treachery in your name. I used a light touch in my dealings with the world. I yielded whenever I could, and I stood up for what is right, just, and true. I always kept fairness and balance close to my heart. I tried not to judge, but I did my best to keep the demons from running amok and slaughtering the innocent. I did the best I could with what you gave me, Lord. Was my performance to your liking? I sincerely hope so, my Lord. What else now would you have me do, Sir? "


You are making your plea based on your own efforts at righteous actions. However the scripture teaches that no man is justified by works. What you are missing is that the only basis for justification is the perfect work and obedience of Jesus Christ on behalf of His people. God can only look at perfection, and He can look at Jesus and be well pleased, since He is perfect. By the obedience of One many are made righteous. People are not justified because they are relatively better than others, but only because Christ is perfect. The sins of all those that will inherit eternal life are imputed to His account, and He satisfied justice by coming under God's wrath, and His righteousness is imputed to their accounts. This is why it is only by faith, and not by works, that anyone can be justified. Faith in itself is not a justifiable cause, but it observes the justification that Christ has wrought out for His people.


You have no idea how sincerely I mean those words. In my life, I have been shown both the Wonders and Horrors of God's Reality, and I can think of no other Royal Family that I would rather serve. I know this sounds corny, but He is my Lord, he gave me the freedom to think and behave autonomously and I respect him to the utmost for that. He created everything that exists, and I have no choice but to tip my hat to him. My highest aspiration is to be like God in understanding God and putting the powers he has granted me to good use. Thats why I have spent the majority of my life trying to understand God and his ways, and put myself in tune with Him.

and when I have made my appeal before God, he will hand me his verdict. I have no idea what that verdict will be, but I have faith that I will get what I deserve, whatever that may be. He knows me, he knows who I am, the forces that drive my behavior, the situations I have been thrown into and forced to react to. I have faith in His ability to know whether or not I did what I was supposed to do.


I am sure you are very sincere in your words, but sincerity without belief of the truth of God's testimony is worthless. You say you do not know what the verdict will be in your case, but all believers know the verdict, guilty, but washed in the blood of Christ and justified, despite who they are. I hope that you might be convicted of the futility of self-righteousness, and brought to see the light of the gospel. All believers have full assurance of salvation, they are not doubtful about whether they are justified.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5810755 - 07/01/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You are making your plea based on your own efforts at righteous actions. However the scripture teaches that no man is justified by works. What you are missing is that the only basis for justification is the perfect work and obedience of Jesus Christ on behalf of His people.




what should I put my efforts towards besides righteous actions?  What do you suggest I should do with my efforts?  I don't claim to be justified by works!  I am justified by Faith in God, Christ and their creations.  You think I'm not humble?  I have struggled my entire life with underconfidence and depression, to the point of allowing many people to walk all over me like a fucking doormat!  I have considered myself unworthy of many things that others take for granted.  You have no idea how many cheeks I've turned, how much I have sacrificed of myself for the benefit of others!  I'm not trying to lord this over anyone, and I'm not trying to collect credit for my work.  Credit belongs to God.  I understand this.  Do you? 

How can anyone claim to perfectly obey Christ?  Can YOU make this claim?  You say that Salvation is not Justified by works, then you say I must perfectly obey Christ?  Isn't that a Work? 

Sure, I'll work on behalf of Christ's people.  But as one of Christ's people myself, should they not work on behalf of me as well?  I was baptized.  Contrary to popular belief, the Holy water didn't burn my skin.  The Host did not poison me.  I'm just as saved as you are, buddy, so don't point your fuckin finger at me.  I've accepted Christ as my savior, not only that, I respect his sacrifice enough to follow his legacy and emulate his behavior and teachings to the fullest extent that I can. 

Quote:


God can only look at perfection, and He can look at Jesus and be well pleased, since He is perfect. By the obedience of One many are made righteous. People are not justified because they are relatively better than others, but only because Christ is perfect. The sins of all those that will inherit eternal life are imputed to His account, and He satisfied justice by coming under God's wrath, and His righteousness is imputed to their accounts. This is why it is only by faith, and not by works, that anyone can be justified. Faith in itself is not a justifiable cause, but it observes the justification that Christ has wrought out for His people.




Why should the sins of mankind be on Jesus's account?  He is the Prince of All.  I think he deserves better.  I'll take as much of the load off of his shoulders as I can, because I respect him.  Do you? 

Quote:

am sure you are very sincere in your words, but sincerity without belief of the truth of God's testimony is worthless. You say you do not know what the verdict will be in your case, but all believers know the verdict, guilty, but washed in the blood of Christ and justified, despite who they are. I hope that you might be convicted of the futility of self-righteousness, and brought to see the light of the gospel. All believers have full assurance of salvation, they are not doubtful about whether they are justified.




And where is God's testimony?  The Bible?  :rofl:  You fool.  That's one book in a sea of books.  If God is everything, Then ALL books are His testimony.  He is the Source of Everything that exists!!!!  So in order to completely know God's testimony, you would have to read them all, not to mention have an intimate understanding of every living thing on te planet Earth.  Have you done this?  Well then, shut the fuck up!  Do you know God's will?  Because according to your own ideology, you can't as an imperfect human know God's will, so that means you need to shut the fuck up!  You are guilty of the same crimes I am, so if I go down, you're goin with me :smirk:

you hope I am covicted?  How very Christian of you :rolleyes:  If persecution be your prescription for me then rest assured that Christ will prescibe you the very same.  Aren't you self-righteous in judging my interpretation and hoping I get convicted? 

And anyone who assures themself of salvation is a fool.  Only God and Christ can assure you your salvation.  You can't usurp their job and declare yourself saved no matter what.  That is the heavenly father and his son's decision, not yours. 

Will Jesus pay for my sins with his blood?  I believe so.  Should he have to?  Hell, no.  He is my Lord, and he deserves better.  I try so hard to do my own laundry, because I don't think that my shit SHOULD be Jesus's responsibility. 

You know why it pisses me off when people wear crosses?  Because they see that as: "This is what gets me off the hook for all the horrible shit I've done.  The King's son is footing my tab." 

FUCK THAT.  I don't want to put anything on Jesus's credit card.  I want to pay my own way and leave Jesus out of my dirty business.  Jesus has been through more than enough shit.  I sincerely don't want to put any more shit on his plate.  I don't care if this gets me credit or whatever.  I just know its the right thing to do.  Christ has been cleaning the souls of this planet for awhile.  If I can give him a little less work, I will.  Not because I expect a favor in return, but because I know damn well he has enough on his plate already. 

Sure, Jesus will forgive your sins, but don't you thik he'll be more pleased if you don't sin in the first place?  All I want is to please God and Christ and all the other members of God's Army.  Thats all I've ever striven for.  I'm not taking the Crucifixion as a blank check to do whatever I want.  I see His sacrifice, and I respect it enough to imitate it in my own way, so that I may continue his legacy here on Earth. 

I'm done talking with you, dude.  You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.  I suggest you spend about 10 years reading and then talk to me about spirituality.  Maybe try expanding your horizons to understand all of the world's religions instead of just the one you were raised by.  You think God and Christ are so uncompassionate that they would damn foriegners to hell simply because they call God a different name?  Now who's self righteous?  There is truth and beauty in all religions.  God is the founder of almost every religion there is, not just yours.  All those people in other countries think of you as a heathen the same way you think of them as heathens.  Which of you is right?  Do you really think it has to be you or them?  Why not both? 

And how do you know the validity of your Bible?  How do you know that it is an accurate reflection of what actually happened?  Have you read it in its original translation?  Do you even know which language the original translation is in?  How do you know that the King James translation you bought at Barnes and Knoble is the real deal?  By trusting what they have handed you, you aren't having faith in God, you are having faith in Barnes And Knoble, King James, and the Roman editors who edited and compiled the book.  I wouldn't put too much faith in those false idols, if I were you. 

The God who gave us the bible also gave us a brain capable of questioning it.  Do you think he wants us to use one and not the other?  If everything exists for a reason, then why did God create brains capable of disbelieving?  The truth is, with your current level of education, you can't anser these questions.  So I'd suggest you do some more homework before you try to bring the hammer down on me, punk. 

good day to you sir.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5810926 - 07/01/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

fivepointer:
Quote:
You are making your plea based on your own efforts at righteous actions. However the scripture teaches that no man is justified by works. What you are missing is that the only basis for justification is the perfect work and obedience of Jesus Christ on behalf of His people.


DoctorJ:
what should I put my efforts towards besides righteous actions? What do you suggest I should do with my efforts? I don't claim to be justified by works! I am justified by Faith in God, Christ and their creations. You think I'm not humble? I have struggled my entire life with underconfidence and depression, to the point of allowing many people to walk all over me like a fucking doormat! I have considered myself unworthy of many things that others take for granted. You have no idea how many cheeks I've turned, how much I have sacrificed of myself for the benefit of others! I'm not trying to lord this over anyone, and I'm not trying to collect credit for my work. Credit belongs to God. I understand this. Do you?

This is the crux of the lost self-righteous religionist, notice the Pharisee who thanks God for being holier than others, yet he is not justified.

Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

But the publican can not mention any good work, and he is justified.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

How can anyone claim to perfectly obey Christ? Can YOU make this claim? You say that Salvation is not Justified by works, then you say I must perfectly obey Christ? Isn't that a Work?

I never said I perfectly obey Christ, I said the basis of justification is Christ's obedience, not my obedience.

Sure, I'll work on behalf of Christ's people. But as one of Christ's people myself, should they not work on behalf of me as well? I was baptized. Contrary to popular belief, the Holy water didn't burn my skin. The Host did not poison me. I'm just as saved as you are, buddy, so don't point your fuckin finger at me. I've accepted Christ as my savior, not only that, I respect his sacrifice enough to follow his legacy and emulate his behavior and teachings to the fullest extent that I can.

You were baptized, so what?? Does baptism have some magical power? "Holy water", where did you get that notion from? Certainly not the Word. Saved people believe the gospel. Your "gospel" is not the gospel found in scripture.

Quote:

God can only look at perfection, and He can look at Jesus and be well pleased, since He is perfect. By the obedience of One many are made righteous. People are not justified because they are relatively better than others, but only because Christ is perfect. The sins of all those that will inherit eternal life are imputed to His account, and He satisfied justice by coming under God's wrath, and His righteousness is imputed to their accounts. This is why it is only by faith, and not by works, that anyone can be justified. Faith in itself is not a justifiable cause, but it observes the justification that Christ has wrought out for His people.



Why should the sins of mankind be on Jesus's account?
The sins of the elect, all those that will inherit eternal life, are laid to His account, not all mankind.

He is the Prince of All. I think he deserves better. I'll take as much of the load off of his shoulders as I can, because I respect him. Do you?

You can not take any load off. Your attempts at helping to justify yourself actually sets aside the work of Christ, and it is an insult.

Quote:
am sure you are very sincere in your words, but sincerity without belief of the truth of God's testimony is worthless. You say you do not know what the verdict will be in your case, but all believers know the verdict, guilty, but washed in the blood of Christ and justified, despite who they are. I hope that you might be convicted of the futility of self-righteousness, and brought to see the light of the gospel. All believers have full assurance of salvation, they are not doubtful about whether they are justified.



And where is God's testimony? The Bible? You fool. That's one book in a sea of books. If God is everything, Then ALL books are His testimony. He is the Source of Everything that exists!!!! So in order to completely know God's testimony, you would have to read them all, not to mention have an intimate understanding of every living thing on te planet Earth. Have you done this? Well then, shut the fuck up! Do you know God's will? Because according to your own ideology, you can't as an imperfect human know God's will, so that means you need to shut the fuck up! You are guilty of the same crimes I am, so if I go down, you're goin with me

All books are not God's testimony, this is just absurd, and you claim affiliation with being Christian? All are guilty and all deserve the same thing, damnation, but some are shown mercy.


you hope I am covicted? How very Christian of you If persecution be your prescription for me then rest assured that Christ will prescibe you the very same. Aren't you self-righteous in judging my interpretation and hoping I get convicted?

Before a person can be saved they need to be shown the reason why, part of this process is conviction of sinnership.

And anyone who assures themself of salvation is a fool. Only God and Christ can assure you your salvation. You can't usurp their job and declare yourself saved no matter what. That is the heavenly father and his son's decision, not yours.

All believers are assured of salvation, the Spirit and Word bearing witness to this fact.

Will Jesus pay for my sins with his blood? I believe so. Should he have to? Hell, no. He is my Lord, and he deserves better. I try so hard to do my own laundry, because I don't think that my shit SHOULD be Jesus's responsibility.

You know why it pisses me off when people wear crosses? Because they see that as: "This is what gets me off the hook for all the horrible shit I've done. The King's son is footing my tab."

FUCK THAT. I don't want to put anything on Jesus's credit card. I want to pay my own way and leave Jesus out of my dirty business. Jesus has been through more than enough shit. I sincerely don't want to put any more shit on his plate. I don't care if this gets me credit or whatever. I just know its the right thing to do. Christ has been cleaning the souls of this planet for awhile. If I can give him a little less work, I will. Not because I expect a favor in return, but because I know damn well he has enough on his plate already.


You can't pay your own way, it is impossible!

Sure, Jesus will forgive your sins, but don't you thik he'll be more pleased if you don't sin in the first place? All I want is to please God and Christ and all the other members of God's Army. Thats all I've ever striven for. I'm not taking the Crucifixion as a blank check to do whatever I want. I see His sacrifice, and I respect it enough to imitate it in my own way, so that I may continue his legacy here on Earth.

You are again denying Christ's work by asserting you contribute some part in justifying yourself. Your missing the fact that only perfect righteousness is acceptable, and sinners bring nothing but sin.

I'm done talking with you, dude. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest you spend about 10 years reading and then talk to me about spirituality. Maybe try expanding your horizons to understand all of the world's religions instead of just the one you were raised by. You think God and Christ are so uncompassionate that they would damn foriegners to hell simply because they call God a different name? Now who's self righteous? There is truth and beauty in all religions. God is the founder of almost every religion there is, not just yours. All those people in other countries think of you as a heathen the same way you think of them as heathens. Which of you is right? Do you really think it has to be you or them? Why not both?

There is only ONE way, and one gospel.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

And how do you know the validity of your Bible? How do you know that it is an accurate reflection of what actually happened? Have you read it in its original translation? Do you even know which language the original translation is in? How do you know that the King James translation you bought at Barnes and Knoble is the real deal? By trusting what they have handed you, you aren't having faith in God, you are having faith in Barnes And Knoble, King James, and the Roman editors who edited and compiled the book. I wouldn't put too much faith in those false idols, if I were you.

God's Word is preserved, that fact you attack it shows what you really think of it. And you claim to be a Christian?

The God who gave us the bible also gave us a brain capable of questioning it. Do you think he wants us to use one and not the other? If everything exists for a reason, then why did God create brains capable of disbelieving? The truth is, with your current level of education, you can't anser these questions. So I'd suggest you do some more homework before you try to bring the hammer down on me, punk.

It doesn't take 10 years of education to understand the gospel, once it is revealed it is understood immediately.


Edited by fivepointer (07/01/06 09:47 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5811011 - 07/01/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

whatever, dude. 

sins of the elect?  and you are one of those?  Get over yourself.  Just because you elected yourself don't mean Jesus has your back.  Gospel?  Which one?  The one you choose to believe in? 

Keep on believin in your false Idols if you so choose.  I don't care. 

Only time will tell which one of us is right.  I'm not too worried about it.  I have all the time in the universe.  You don't, but I do :wink:

Insult to God?  Shut the fuck up.  If I have insulted God or Christ, they'll deal with me.  I accept their judgement, not yours.  You are nobody.  Take your opinion and cram it. 

I know you have wordly power.  Go ahead and use it against me.  See what it gets you, 'Elect'.  Come on pardner, pick up the gun.  I fucking dare you.  I double-dog dare you. 

Come nail me to a tree.  See what you get.  You're just as dirty as the rest of us, so don't think for a second you have the right to cast the first stone.  I know who you are.  You know what?  I don't give a rats ass.  You are nobody as far as I'm concerned. 

Class dismissed.


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InvisibleMourningdove
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5811993 - 07/02/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Pick up the gun? Christ is gonna toast your ass...


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5812403 - 07/02/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

hey, at least I don't think of Christ as my Personal Slave due to his 'Perfect Obedience' :rolleyes:

what the hell is that guy thinking, bossing the Son of God around? 

I don't expect Jesus to do shit for me.  That kind of thinking leads to overindulgent behavior. 

'Perfect Obedience', what a crock of shit.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5812524 - 07/02/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

its silly to think u have all the answers


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Mourningdove]
    #5812643 - 07/02/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mourningdove said:
Pick up the gun? Christ is gonna toast your ass...




Still waiting for that. Seems lots of folks want to do His job before he gets here, though.

But the fact of the matter is that I am not guilty of any crime that Christ would toast me for. Thats why I'm unafraid of the Second Coming. I know I've been good.

The sad fact and harsh truth of the matter is that if you are guilty, you are condemned. Not by God or Christ, but by yourself. You have condemned yourself with your own sin.

How would Christ be perfectly obeying God if he allowed people to run amok and destroy that which God created, and disrespect God's basic commandments?

No, the Truth is that Christ is both reedeemer and a condemner. He is God's Judge of souls, of whether or not a soul is worthy of entering the Gates of Heaven.

Sometimes, Jesus is merciful enough to let a damned person reincarnate and try again. But some souls fuck up so bad that they get sent to Hell and ultimately deleted from existence.

I have no fear in my heart of Christ's judgement, because I know that I have taken his teachings to heart and applied them as best I could.

It even says in Revelations that when Christ comes back, he's going to take all the worthy souls with him to Heaven and leave the condemned on earth to suffer through the apocalypse.

Believe me, Christ has infinite compassion, true, but he also has infinite hostility towards all those who would bully the meek, break God's commandments, and generally be destructive assholes who make no contribution to society and instead choose to treat life as an excercise of indulgence at the expense of the weak.

So, crooked politicians and slick businessmen, beware! Christ has your number, he knows where you live, and he's coming to deliver Justice to Criminals and Mercy for their victims.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5812684 - 07/02/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

But the fact of the matter is that I am not guilty of any crime that Christ would toast me for. Thats why I'm unafraid of the Second Coming. I know I've been good.

Are you familiar with a certain sin called "PRIDE"?

Ba da bing!

:wink: :grin:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: dblaney]
    #5812709 - 07/02/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

am I proud of the events of my life? Hell no! I wish to God it could have gone better. I know damn well I've made mistakes.

I'm confident that Christ and God will forgive me for those mistakes. Its the rest of humanity I'm concerned about. People around me have committed WAAAAYYY more severe crimes than I have, and I worry about their fates. The even scarier thing is that most of these people are proud of themselves for the heinous things they have done! I hate to think of what their comeuppance will be like.

But hey, its not up to me. All I can do is throw myself at God's mercy. I'm not worried about me! I'm worried about all those psychotic people who think they are going to get away with what they have done. They are screwing themselves big time.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5812712 - 07/02/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Alright


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5812746 - 07/02/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

God created humanity but now human beings create God. That is the way of the world - human beings make gods, and worship their creation. It would be more appropriate for the gods to worship human beings haha!

Trust no person who tells you that you are evil or guilty by reason of your nature or your physical existance, or any such dogma. Trust no one who leads you away from the reality of yourself. Do not follow those who tell you that you must do penance in whatever form. Trust instead the spontaneity of your own being and the life that is your own. If you do not like what you are, then examine those beliefs that you have. Bring them out into the open. There is nothing within yourself to fear. Remember your life is yours and you form it.

You are given a gift of the gods. You creat your reality according to your beliefs, yours is the creative energy that makes your world. There are no limitations to the self except those you believe in.


--------------------


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5812748 - 07/02/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:rofl:

I create my own reality?  Great.  I'll create a reality without you or anyone who believes in what you believe.  You guys are on your own.

how will you have the power to create God when the God behind you cuts your power?  :lol:

you're doomed with that attitude, sweetheart.  Time to face the music, honey

and if there is no penance, then anyone you trespass against is free to tresspass against you.  Ever consider that? 

Anarchy means that if you are free to steal from me, I am free to take whatever revenge I wish upon you for your crime against me.  Have you not considered this ramification of your philosophy? 

Kill and invite your own death.  Steal and be stolen from.  Torture others and be tortured yourself.  Not you or anyone else is immune from this law. 

That is why I choose to help others and not hurt them.  That is why I am humble.  "Faithlessness on your part entails faithlessness on the part of others."

As long as you exist in a reality alongside other conscious beings, you must coexist with them.  By striving with others, you are only hurting yourself, for in truth we are all connected. 

The only place you can really do whatever you want is in your mind.  Only there are you truly alone and thus free from the influences of other entities.  In the outside world, you are nothing but a piece of a greater whole, and you must respect the wishes of others as your own.  Trespass against them, and they will trespass against you.  You are not above the karmic fracas.  By your actions you have firmly entrenched yourself in bad karma, and thus are subject to the discipline of society. 

All those bad deeds are going to catch up to you.  You cannot escape God's Justice.  Even if you die before you are punished, you will be judged in the afterlife. 


Edited by DoctorJ (07/02/06 04:07 PM)


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Invisibledr_gonz
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Re: Jesus Lived for you *DELETED* [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5812779 - 07/02/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by dr_gonz

Reason for deletion: f


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: dr_gonz]
    #5812879 - 07/02/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

He loves and hates you.

you have to realize that there can be no honey without bee stings.

My stepfather hates bees. He always asks God why he created them.

The answer is simple: Though bees sting people, they also pollenate flowers. The also make honey. You can't expect there to be flowers and honey without getting stung by a bee every now and then. Besides, some people deserve to be stung! Perhaps bees also serve as fate's messenger. Maybe getting stung by a bee is God's Justice! "One who is steeped in Virtue is like a new born babe. Wasps and poinsonous serpents do not sting it, nor to fierce beasts or birds of prey maul it."

The universe is a wave. It has an up part and a down part. As conscious entities, we are like surfers riding this wave. The key to not wiping out is Balance.

So, take the good with the bad. Realize that they are both part of the same Whole, which is perfect and balanced as it is. The universe is not imbalanced, only its riders are. One who is imbalanced is doomed to wipe out and be swept away by the vast ocean.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5812963 - 07/02/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

But the fact of the matter is that I am not guilty of any crime that Christ would toast me for. Thats why I'm unafraid of the Second Coming. I know I've been good.

You really think your "good enough", and this "goodness" merits your salvation. Only sinners are saved, not those who are "good enough". Your doctrine is opposes the truth. How many sins does it take to get toasted for? Just one! So unless you have never sinned ever in your whole life, you are not just with God. Every sin, even one, requires just punishment, which is eternal damnation. God is righteous and hates all sin. Sin is only forgiven by the atonement of Jesus on behalf of those He came to save.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5813009 - 07/02/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

can you please post some more stuff like that?  You are making yourself look like a complete jackass, and I find it quite amusing. 

I realize now that you are a fool, and my rationality is lost on you.  That is why I will not attempt to reason with you, and instead allow you to continue disproving your own case by posting falsehood and contradiction which is obvious to anyone with half a brain. 

Eternal Damnation is Just punishment?  So If I steal a cookie from a my mother's cookie jar and thats the only thing I do wrong my entire life, then I'm going to Hell for eternity?  Is that what you call Justice?  Your ideas are so out of whack that they disprove themselves. 

You don't know what I think because you haven't even bothered with trying to understand what I have written.  So stop accusing me of thoughtcrime.  Only God knows what is going on in my mind, not you. 

It says in your own bible: "Only those who are as little children will be allowed into Heaven." 

You think sinners are saved, but the righteous are damned?  How backwards you are!  Wishful thinking ain't gonna get you into heaven. 

My doctrine does not oppose the Truth, it only opposed what you have fooled yourself into believing.  I'm sorry if you don't agree with me.  If you would rather live in a society where people are not allowed to express themselves, go back to Russia, commie! 

How bout this:  You practice your faith, I'll practice mine, and we'll let God and Christ be the judge of who is right. 

You pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe and then call yourself Christian?  You close your mind to God's reality, ignoring all perspectives besides the one that suits you, and you think you are save?  :lol:  Good luck with that, buddy.  You're gonna need it. 

Seriously, keep posting this drivel you call a faith.  Nobody here thinks you are right, that's obvious by your ratings.  You are merely making your ideas look foolish by posting them here.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5813033 - 07/02/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Seriously, keep posting this drivel you call a faith. Nobody here thinks you are right, that's obvious by your ratings. You are merely making your ideas look foolish by posting them here.

Truth is not determined by numbers of people who believe something.

I'll take the foolishness of the gospel over your "rational" ideas.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5813068 - 07/02/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you are only fighting with yourself. The Truth is that you and I both believe in the same thing.

I accept your interpretation of the Gospel. I may not agree with it for myself, but I accept that you are entitled to your opinion. Can you not accept the same of me?

the fact is that only God and Christ know what the correct interpretation of the Gospel is. Neither you nor I can claim to know the ultimate truth.

Everyone who reads the Bible is going to take a completely different interpretation away from it. Only the King and his Son can say: "This person is right and this person is wrong."

I have spent the majority of my life examining the Gospel, and examing myself as well. I believe in both God, Christ, and myself. I practice my beliefs as best I can with my limited understanding and ability.

Only the one true God knows whether I have interpreted and acted correctly. Only he can save me or allow me to perish. I have faith that his Judgement will be just and true, and I will get what I deserve, whatever that may be. If that is eternal damnation, then so be it.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5813135 - 07/02/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:

Truth is not determined by numbers of people who believe something.






so basically, you think God is on your side, but He's not on the side of anyone that disagrees with you, which is the majority of people.

STFU, fascist


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5813235 - 07/02/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

As jesus said the true church is invisible. You need to look into your self for the answers. Everyone is capable of knowing the truth but we are blind by are reality we have created.

The Kindom of god is not a future event! It is a state of self discovery. As jesus said,"The kindom is inside you, and it is outide you. When you come to know yourselves , then you will be known, and you will realize that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourseves, then you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty." Then he also says,"What you look foward to has already come, but you do not recognize it. It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."

The Kingdom to me is a state of transformed consciousness. There for people who get wraped up in False beliefs and let the world condition them will be blind then to the Kingdom of god. So you could say this world is hell to some people who are taken over by things which they find evil. There for people who "sin" will not experience heaven for they are blind to it or as jesus says "DRUNK".


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5813262 - 07/02/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

some of his translators said...

its easier for a drunkard to enter the kingdom of heaven

than for a rich man to pass through the eye of the needle


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Schwammel]
    #5813300 - 07/02/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe that is just saying that a rich man which is so taken over by false beliefs about money which take over his life and leave him blind to the truth.

And the drunkard who is wasted and doesnt get wraped up in his false beliefs at that moment.

When jesus says drunk he doesn not mean hammered from alcohol hehe.


--------------------


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5813325 - 07/02/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the Kingdom of God is spread out all over the Universe!  Its not just on Earth!  Woul you deny yourself the riches of the heavens by clinging to the Earth?  Would you deny yourself the wealth of the Spirit by wallowing in the elemnts which are supposed to be beneath it? 

If we choose to wallow in the mires of Earthly pleasures, we will miss our opportunity to explore and exploit the vast wealth of the universe!  The Earth and its pleasures are milk.  Space exploitation is the meat for dinner.  If you keep drinking milk and deny yourself the meat, you will eventually die of malnutrition.

The human race has very little time left.  The earth WILL BE destroyed eventually.  If we have not made it into outer space by this time, humanity will be destroyed along with the earth. 

We are in crisis now!  If we do not pass this final test, humanity and the entire planet earth will be destroyed, and God will just shrug and say, "too bad."  "Heaven and Earth is not sentimental.  It treats all things as straw dogs." 

Who gave you the right to declare the game over and won?  The game never ends, it is never won.  "The price of existence is eternal warfare."

You are too short sighted to see past your own petty desires and biology.  You think Earth is the only inhabited planet in the cosmos?  I know for a fact that it is not.  Human beings are very low on the totem pole of life in the Universe.  There are species of beings in space that are so advanced they don't have or require technology.  They don't even have or require bodies.  They are beings of pure energy and Spirit. 

You think earth is the end of the game?  :lol:  How narrow-minded you are!  You think of all the trillions of stars in the Universe, our Sun is the only one with a planet capable of supporting life?  :rofl: 

You think you uderstand God because you understand the Earth?  God is way beyond just earth, or the material elements. 

You can come on here and spout your satanist hedonist bullshit all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you are losing your followers, you are losing your power.  So keep on talking, you are only making yourself look foolish.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5813402 - 07/02/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Take it easy. If you would take the time and not just critisize everyones posts you could actually think about what they are trying to say. I never said anything about the kingdom being strickly here on earth! I was just quoting what jesus said. He was just saying its spead out on the earth not only on the earth. Think about it before freaking out man. And when did i say that earth was the only planet with life? Yes I also believe in life on other planets and they too are sons of God. God has no image. And I could care less if I had any followers because thats whats wrong with people today they are all followers and dont seek the truth by themselves. Would you say Jesus was a follower? Just as jesus says "Have a great number of friends, but not counselors. But if you do acquire a friend do not entrust yourself to him. Entrust yourself to God alone as father and as friend.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5813453 - 07/02/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

sorry, maybe I'm just misinterpreting you, but when you make vague statements like that you give people justification to behave in a way that is destructive to both themselves, their environment, and their fellow man.

You and I are both on the same side, but I don't think you are truly understanding the logical ramifications of what you say.

I too have had this problem in the past. I have accidentally spread a lot of satanist propaganda by not articulating my ideas as well as I should have. By not articulating them well, I have caused a lot of misinterpretation, which in turn has caused a lot of fucked up shit to happen.

So anyway, my advice is to watch what you say, because people can easily misinterpret your message, twist it around in their minds, and use it as justification to do bad things.

I mean, I know that you don't believe in the concept of 'bad', but I seriously doubt that if YOU were the one being raped, tortured, stolen from, and ultimately killed, I seriously doubt that you would consider this 'good'.

seriuosly, what if someone out there is reading this right now and says to themselves: "Well, this person says that all morality is subjective to our own belief, so I will choose to believe that I am God, and use this belief as justification to torture, rape, steal from, and ultimately kill that person."

Don't let your words invite disaster upon yourself as I have. Someone who chooses to follow the philosophies you espouse could easily turn them against you yourself. Think about that.


Edited by DoctorJ (07/02/06 08:39 PM)


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5813533 - 07/02/06 08:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I too have had this problem in the past. I have accidentally spread a lot of satanist propaganda by not articulating my ideas as well as I should have...

soo waht>


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: Schwammel]
    #5813817 - 07/02/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

so what? You are speaking with a reformed satanist! When I was a teen and in my early twenties, I rolled with a pack of satanists. We thought we were God, we went around fuckin shit up.

What I learned from this experience is that if you believe there are no rules or consequences for your behavior, something will eventually come along to put you in check. One of your own followers will put a knife to your throat from behind.

"A troll becomes King of the Trolls by assassinating the previous King, thus only the most foolish seek positions of leadership."

The point is simply this: If you take your wealth by force, it is an inevitability that that wealth will be taken from you by force. If you kill, you will be killed.

By lifting the restrictions on your own behavior, you are also lifting the restrictions on others' behavior towards you. Thus self-serving anarchists are always eliminated by their own kind. Only a sefless anarchist is truly protected from the consequences of freedom.

Sure, a person could feasibly do whatever they want. They could conquer the entire world with treachery and force.

But then they would be subject to the fear of never being able to trust anyone, never knowing when an assassin's bullet might strike them down.

Personally I would rather sleep well at night with whjat I have earned, rather than be constantly paranoid about what I have stolen.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5814597 - 07/03/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:

Truth is not determined by numbers of people who believe something.






so basically, you think God is on your side, but He's not on the side of anyone that disagrees with you, which is the majority of people.

STFU, fascist




2+2 is never equal to 5. I don't care if 99.9 % of all people believe that 2+2=5, it simply isn't true. I don't care if 0% of the people on the Shroomery think my doctrine is false, because truth is not dependent on popularity. Do you really think it is constructive to misrepresent and insult those who you disagree with? Your postings are very insulting to others, and not in a good way. If you do not agree with my doctrine, then show me with scripture where I have erred.

If this was a private conversation I would have stopped talking to you a long time ago, seeing that you are dead set in your false doctrines. But since this is a public forum some good may come out of our dialog for others who are reading.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: fivepointer]
    #5814861 - 07/03/06 05:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

lol, you're just as rigid in your point of view as those you spoke against. I've given up debating anything with you because all I get is a bunch of Bible versus in return. Not much of a debate if you're just going to quote stuff, regardless what it is


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Jesus Lived for you [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5815184 - 07/03/06 09:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
DoctorJ, if you want to keep posting in this forum after your ban, you must show respect for other members. More than flaming, what i despise most is lack of understanding and lack of acceptance regarding other people spiritual or religious beliefs. The self-proclaimed rightful bearers of ultimate Truth, belong to the same basket of "false prophets", as the book you read, the bible, tells us so.

This forum does not exist for the sole purpose of protecting believers. But to give people the freedom to express their spiritual and religious beliefs without logical or scientific scrutiny. That doesn't give you the right to step on others spiritual and religious beliefs, much less having the arrogance to pretend you have the right answers to transcendental questions.

Everyone has both their own light and shadow. It's the way we connect to both streams, that makes us either accepting and tolerant, or a prisoner of our own dogmas. I only whish you have walked the path of light for some time, because now, you seem to be walking the other way ...


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