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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: trendal]
    #4627042 -

Quantum mechanics is such a cool field because it defys all other laws of physics. Imagine if humans could just walk through walls (quantum mechanics says it's possible, though it would take nearly an eternity of attempting to do so, for all you people like me who dont know much about quantum mech).

What you're describing sounds like fluctuations in energy cause particles to be created and destroyed and all sorts of other effects on matter and these sub-atomic particles.

And that reminds me a lot of string theory...what do you think of it?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4627049 -

Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4627050 -

Diploid said:
Still, while these objects are theoretical, to-date, there has never been a single prediction of Quantum Mechanics that has been demonstrated wrong by experiment, and the theory explains in weird but beautiful ways everything around you except for gravity, which is currently a stubborn sticking point.


Isn't there a theory in the string theory that says that gravitons may actually be able to travel between dimensions?

Now that would be really cool


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: trendal]
    #4627075 -

Quote:
particles will literally pop "out of nowhere" as they are created by the energy.


True, like with quarks, it is easier to bring a quark and an antiquark from out of nothingness after a certain point as the energy between the quark pairs/ triplets increases with distance if I remember correctly. But where does the energy come from? Isn't energy just wave particles too?

Quote:
All chemistry, and biology, stems from a few simple rules (Laws) and a few simple peices (particles). From just three particles and four forces we get all that you see around you. Actually with chemistry/biology basically everything depends on just the interaction of electrons with eachother


There are dozens of particles in the Standard Model, so what three are you speaking of? The quark, the gluon and the electron? Or are you talking about the composite particles, namely the proton and neutron, plus the elementary particle of the electron? Just out of curiousity on which line of thought you're going on.

Though either way I think you forgot the photon. :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627076 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


:rofl2: What are you doing here Old?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627078 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


There is no free will.  :thumbup:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627114 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


even though there is no point to such arguments, it is interesting to hear what others think on such issues and even more interesting to see how others back up their arguments for and/or against. besides, things are going quite civil in this discussion, so what exactly is the problem?


--------------------
http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Icelander]
    #4627150 -

Icelander said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


:rofl2: What are you doing here Old?


what do you mean, here in this thread, or here on these forums?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4627157 -

psychomime said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


even though there is no point to such arguments, it is interesting to hear what others think on such issues and even more interesting to see how others back up their arguments for and/or against. besides, things are going quite civil in this discussion, so what exactly is the problem?


I just wanted to point out that this discussion is not going to end, it is simply going to stop


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4627166 -

Ravus said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


There is no free will.  :thumbup:


well don't know for sure as a general rule, but there sure isn't no free will on this forum.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627171 -

well seeing as it's a forgone conclusion, why not sit back and enjoy the ride? it's much the same as watching an adam sandler movie.


--------------------
http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627194 -

People aren't going to change their major beliefs because of a few posts in an internet discussion, but we can at least learn about opposing viewpoints and alternatives. I doubt any theists will suddenly become Nihilists, or atheists become devout Christians, but at least we can spread knowledge and look more into our viewpoints and make others look into their viewpoints. If we're questioned about our viewpoints, we're almost forced to think about why we believe something, while if we never discussed it we'd just continue on complacently. Isn't that really what philosophy is all about? It's not all about domination and annihilation of other viewpoints, but rather about gaining knowledge and questioning to strengthen the mind.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4627216 -

Ok guys, do your stuff, let 'er rip. I'm going to find a nice spot in the audience, and buy me some popcorn


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627275 -

Me too, move over! :popcorn:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4627297 -

Diploid said:
Me too, move over! :popcorn:


would you mind?, that's my popcorn-supply seat  :mad2:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4627321 -

A short skit, by Gulgen:

Quote:
Thousands of years ago...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:


Modern Day...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - "Rain is part of a complex cycle. The sun warms the oceans, evaporating the water. The water rises, condenses into clouds, and will later fall as rain, which then washes back in to the oceans"
Person 1 - "But how does the sun evaporate the water?"
Person 2 - "The sun emits particles of energy known as photons, which travel through space, and some will eventually hit Earth's oceans. These photons will increase the energy level of the water molecules they strike, and when they gain enough energy they'll become a gas and rise into the air"
Person 1 - "What's a molecule?"
Person 2 - "A molecule is the smallest block of any given substance, like the smallest amount of water you could possibly have. They're made of smaller particles called atoms"
Person 1 - "What about atoms? What are they made of?"
Person 2 - "Well atoms are made of smaller particles called protons and neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons are even made of smaller things called quarks, and it may even go further than that."
Person 1 - "Golly gee mister, that's complicated! Where did all that stuff come from anyway? Why does it all act like that?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:



:wink:

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4627578 -

Ravus said:
There are dozens of particles in the Standard Model, so what three are you speaking of? The quark, the gluon and the electron? Or are you talking about the composite particles, namely the proton and neutron, plus the elementary particle of the electron? Just out of curiousity on which line of thought you're going on.


I am, of course, talking about just the electron, proton, and neutron. They are, by far, the three most important particles when speaking of chemistry/biology. The anti-muon and tau nutrino don't play a huge role in chemistry or biology :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: GulGen]
    #4628849 -

GulGen said:
A short skit, by Gulgen:

Quote:
Thousands of years ago...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:


Modern Day...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - "Rain is part of a complex cycle. The sun warms the oceans, evaporating the water. The water rises, condenses into clouds, and will later fall as rain, which then washes back in to the oceans"
Person 1 - "But how does the sun evaporate the water?"
Person 2 - "The sun emits particles of energy known as photons, which travel through space, and some will eventually hit Earth's oceans. These photons will increase the energy level of the water molecules they strike, and when they gain enough energy they'll become a gas and rise into the air"
Person 1 - "What's a molecule?"
Person 2 - "A molecule is the smallest block of any given substance, like the smallest amount of water you could possibly have. They're made of smaller particles called atoms"
Person 1 - "What about atoms? What are they made of?"
Person 2 - "Well atoms are made of smaller particles called protons and neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons are even made of smaller things called quarks, and it may even go further than that."
Person 1 - "Golly gee mister, that's complicated! Where did all that stuff come from anyway? Why does it all act like that?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:



:wink:


I like that, hehe.

But still...      Lets say this conversation goes on, in the future as well. More answers: quarks are blah blah, and because of other blah blah it is a blah, so it actually blah blah blah! The longer it takes the more we know about this system, the more complicated it is in our eyes, but question remains: where did it all come from and why does it act like that, did this system made itself? Did rules came out of their own rules?

As a side note, I also like this discussion, and must say that a lot of what have being said has changed my view a bit: its not the design of atoms I`m curious now, but the rules and system. I also like the idea that it could have happened million times before with much other results, but still why is it happening that million times, have someone pushed a button long time ago?


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4628851 -

but question remains: where did it all come from

It may be that the universe has always existed and never didn't exist, so it was not created.

This isn't intuitive, but just because it's hard to conceive doesn't make it untrue. This is akin to asking which is the first number. Since the counting numbers range from negative infinity to positive infinity, they have no beginning, and no end; they are a continuum.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4628868 -

""come to existence spontaneously""

:wink:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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