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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
energy doesn't exist
    #2906094 - 07/19/04 07:06 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

when speaking about physics, remember that energy is just a concept to analyze motion. you can't hold it in your hand.  there's is always the same amount of eneryg in the universe no matter what because that is the way it is defined (law of conservation of energy).  I have seen a lot of posts on here regarding this issue and I thought it'd would be great to throw this out for discussion..or something  :wink:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineTurd
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Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1,909
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906160 - 07/19/04 07:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

isn't everything just "energy" vibrating at different speeds and frequencies?

(I dont know nearly as much as I would like to about physics)


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: Turd]
    #2906208 - 07/19/04 07:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

electrons vibrate depending on what is pushing/pulling against them but not energy.

let's take an example of an electron being pushed by an electric field.

we can get certain types of nuknown information about the electron or the E-field (unknown because of the type of tools we may be lacking :wink:) such as kinetic energy and potential energy

now there's more types of energy to analyze an electron with, but I'll stick with these two to keep it simple.

the electron has a certain beginning speed and a certain beginning height. 

Remember, by definition, energy is conserved in a closed system.  I will define the system as the entire electric field (which includes the electron).

Kinetic energy of the electron is dependant on (without using calculus here) the mass of the electron and the speed is going.  potential depends on the mass of the electron times the acceleration of gravity (ie weight) and the height of the electron. 

how do I determine the height of an electron floating an in a 3D E-field? that's easy, I'll make up my own frame of reference, like an x, y, and z axis.  In this case I will start my frame where the electron is.

what is the begginning speed?  I'll define it as time=0, right when the electron is placed in the E-field.

now I can analyze the motion of the electron in whatever way I chose

notice I had to define everything first before I started analyzing.  the system is internally consistent because of how I set it up. 

so now you can see that energy is a vibration makes no sense at all (in the physics sense anyway).  :laugh:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906317 - 07/19/04 08:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So all these energy-drinks are all a bunch of scams and lies?

Darn..who would've thought..
:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2906384 - 07/19/04 08:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well saying that energy doesn't "exist" is a bit misleading. Energy does exist...just not as a "physical substance". Energy is the potential for matter to do work, and is usually "transfered" between bits of matter via one of the four fundamental forces.

"Energy" is not a "vibration"...but a vibration is energy :wink:

Energy is also closely related to entropy, a hot topic on my mind of late...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 965
Loc: The City
Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906397 - 07/19/04 08:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think that putting the word "is" after the word "energy" seems too squirrely of an enterprise to engage in with any amount of certitude, hehe.


--------------------


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: trendal]
    #2906401 - 07/19/04 08:44 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

since it doesn't exist as a physical substance it is like I said, a concept.

there's a quote I heard once from Bill Hicks "Matter is purely energy condensed to a slow vibration.." now what would that imply?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

Registered: 07/01/04
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906414 - 07/19/04 08:47 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

is the spirit and the afterlife just a concept since it is intangible? if these things do exist, then what would they be called? since they wouldn't be concepts then


--------------------


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 965
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2906428 - 07/19/04 08:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Concepts don't exist?


--------------------


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906447 - 07/19/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Gravity doesn't "exist as a physical substance"...but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it exists :wink:

Or light (EM)....

Or the nuclear forces...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: trendal]
    #2906474 - 07/19/04 09:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The way I interpret the nature of stuff, is that it is all electromagnetic energy with different charges (vibrations/frequency's/whatever). We filter out a lot of info and keep what is essential for our survival. Your brain in itself is an instrument tuned to receive these frequency's (like a radio with a few antennaes tuned into a frequency).

And yes, I think we're swimming in a dense/slowly vibrating portion of the "electromagnetic reality spectrum." or something like that :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906488 - 07/19/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Being non-material isn't the same as not existing.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: psyka]
    #2906493 - 07/19/04 09:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

is that it is all electromagnetic energy with different charges

What about the other four forces?

Is gravity a part of the electromagnetic force?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Anonymous

Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906498 - 07/19/04 09:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You got it backwards. Energy is all that exists. Remember, matter is just condensed energy.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2906536 - 07/19/04 09:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

there's is always the same amount of eneryg in the universe no matter what because that is the way it is defined



from p.f.case -
'all the power that ever was, or will be, is here, now.'


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: trendal]
    #2906573 - 07/19/04 10:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Gravity is a geometrical property. I'm sure the attraction is related to the shape and mass of object generating the electromagnetic field.

By the way, kaiowas, the Universe is continually expanding and evolving to a source of its own; with the energy of that expansion creates hydrogen (theoretically, of course). When hydrogen gets smashed together with enough force it creates carbon (I think??), when carbon and hydrogen get smashed together the result is helium, thus the grouped up hydrogen-helium balls everywhere in our Universe.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (07/19/04 10:10 PM)


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: psyka]
    #2906587 - 07/19/04 10:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

thus far no one i have talked to can explain to me what a tree is made of. no one knows shit really.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: psyka]
    #2906589 - 07/19/04 10:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Gravity is not a "property"...it is a force. It can be thought of as a geometrical deformation in spacetime. The force of attraction is dependant on the mass of the system, spatial configuration of the system (density, location), and the distance between the centers of gravity.

Gravity and the EM force can be thought of as the "same type" of thing...but they are not the "same thing". If gravity is a geometrical deformation of spacetime...electromagnetism is also a deformation of spacetime (thugh this would require more than 3 spatial dimensions - see "string theory").


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: BleaK]
    #2906591 - 07/19/04 10:11 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Trees are made out of carbon and various other elements.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,376
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: energy doesn't exist [Re: BleaK]
    #2906599 - 07/19/04 10:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

thus far no one i have talked to can explain to me what a tree is made of

Don't be silly: it's made of wood.

So the question becomes: what is "wood" made of?

It's a fibrous cellular structure consisting of many small plant-cells along with connective proteins (which form the "fiber").

The cells and proteins themselves are composed of macromolecules (DNA, RNA, amino acids) which are themselves composed of smaller molecules. Those smaller molecules are composed of atoms. The atoms are composed of subatomic particles (electrons, protons, and neutrons).

From there things are still a little sticky: electrons are thought to be "fundamental" in that you can't cause one to break into smaller particles. Both neutrons and protons are known to be made of 3 quarks each (which are held together by gluons: the force-carrier particles for the strong nuclear force). At present time "quarks" are thought to be fundamental, like electrons.

String theory goes a step further and says that all of these particles are actually small vibrating one-dimensional strings (or p-branes, if you extend to M-theory).


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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