Home | Community | Message Board


MushroomCube.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop: Microscope, Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflinePsiledehysp
second mushroomto the left
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 381
Loc: inside out
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
How could atoms have not been designed?
    #4626677 - 09/06/05 08:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626699 - 09/06/05 08:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

why should they be designed? For them to be designed, they would have to not exist at some point.

Supposedly the Universe was an unstable explosion of subatomic particles, and essentially their properties settled many of them into atoms and stuff.

besides, we aren't even sure if we can find the absolute smallest thing.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: vampirism]
    #4626716 - 09/06/05 08:17 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Well the absolute smallest thing is a wee little thingy, it's tiny and very small, smaller than a dot and not very big.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiledehysp
second mushroomto the left
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 381
Loc: inside out
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Icelander]
    #4626781 - 09/06/05 08:26 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Atoms, sub atomic particles, gravity, electro magnetic field, all that - existed always? If so - why, by accident? And by designed I must mean somewhere beyond time, since if such design took place, it could have been done by very inhuman, unimaginable ways, without any limitations we personally have, so why not atoms are her always, ant yet have been designed beyond time and eternity, by....


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung


Edited by Psiledehysp (09/06/05 08:31 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626792 - 09/06/05 08:29 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What makes you so sure that time (and the universe) has a definite starting point and ending point?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiledehysp
second mushroomto the left
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 381
Loc: inside out
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4626825 - 09/06/05 08:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think its more like repeating loop, if we consider time to exists, but if we do not, its more like eternity with everything that has happend and will happen - already has happend, but using past tense is wrong since time doesnt exist, and its all in eternity, or infinity... and I base it on absolutely nothing: just a thought, just a feeling, possibility.


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinepsychomime
o_O
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 520
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626856 - 09/06/05 08:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Atoms are the way they are because if they were anything different we would not exist to question their creation.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiledehysp
second mushroomto the left
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 381
Loc: inside out
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4626870 - 09/06/05 08:46 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yes indeed I think that what atoms are have to do with what can come out of this (us) but just by accident?


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinepsychomime
o_O
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 520
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626897 - 09/06/05 08:53 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

why not? we cannot know how many times atoms have been otherwise.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
King of Asides
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,978
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626931 - 09/06/05 08:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from?

Atoms are made from sub-atomic particles. Those particles in a way crystallized out of the energy soup that existed after the big bang. Mass and energy are equivalent, so under certain conditions energy will become mass - particles will literally pop "out of nowhere" as they are created by the energy.

But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously?

Yes, as I said they do all the time.

There is no such thing as "empty" space. Even in a total vacuum there are particles, called "virtual particles", that constantly pop in and out of existence at every point in the vacuum. They "borrow" energy from the empty vacuum for a few brief moments, then give it back when they annihilate into pure energy.


All chemistry, and biology, stems from a few simple rules (Laws) and a few simple peices (particles). From just three particles and four forces we get all that you see around you. Actually with chemistry/biology basically everything depends on just the interaction of electrons with eachother :eek:

It is a truly amazing system, "created" or not, and would take more than any one thread could hold to explain it all in it's detail.


--------------------
BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: trendal]
    #4626944 - 09/06/05 09:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously?

Yes, as I said they do all the time.




Unless other atoms spontaneously disappear (into the aether? another dimension?), wouldn't that violate conservation of matter?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiledehysp
second mushroomto the left
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 381
Loc: inside out
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4626950 - 09/06/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

So by repeating 3 or bilions of times, this world, came to biology, inteligence, evolution, love, hate, cadilacs - by chance. Well, it could have, I just dont seem to belive it could, but I take your answer as one explenation, it could have, after infinity of trial end error, wrong atoms, wrong number of dimensions etc..... And with wrong atoms, there were no us, no earth, sex, only wrong atoms? But mayby not wrong but different, with other, pardon the word, "things" that were possible...


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626955 - 09/06/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

but just by accident?

The Anthropic Principle, which psychomime paraphrased, addresses this.

If one (or some finite number of) state(s) of existence can give rise to beings that can ask the question, and the rest of the possible states can't, then it's just a lucky draw of the cards that the universe is such that we can exist.

If it had turned out otherwise, the universe would have now existed for ~15 billion years (give or take a day) absent of such beings as us.

Simple as that.

It would be very cool if some day evidence of a designer was found, but so far, no designer is in evidence even though people have been looking since the dawn of man. This hasn't stopped lots of people from inventing a designer and torturing, killing, warring, oppressing, inquisitioning, and committing assorted other atrocities in His name.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinepsychomime
o_O
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 520
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4626965 - 09/06/05 09:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

no it doesn't. they're virtual particles


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4626974 - 09/06/05 09:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If one (or some finite number of) state(s) of existence can give rise to beings that can ask the question, and the rest of the possible states can't, then it's just a lucky draw of the cards that the universe is such that we can exist.

If it had turned out otherwise, the universe would have now existed for ~15 billion years (give or take a day) absent of such beings as us.


Maybe I'm missing something...but that would mean that since dinosaurs couldn't ask such a question (as far as we know) then they shouldn't have existed?

Unless of course...do you mean any state of existence that can potentially give rise to such a form at any point of time?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsiledehysp
second mushroomto the left
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 381
Loc: inside out
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626982 - 09/06/05 09:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Ok Trendal, but who set the rules, made appearing sub particles out of nowwhere possible? Or rather, not who, but how these rules have been set, by accident?  :smile:

Yes this is indeed amazing system...


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
King of Asides
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,978
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4626989 - 09/06/05 09:10 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Technically, yes, but the conservation laws where written with a purely classical physics mindset. On the very microscopic scale, quantum laws become expressed and you get phenomena like virtual particles.

There is no such thing as "zero" energy, in the quantum world. You cannot say "this piece of space, a vacuum, has zero energy in it". The energy value may be near zero, but it will always fluctuate slightly up and down - quantum fluctuations. This is the vacuum energy, or "zero point" energy as many alternative types like to call it (but it IS real - the Casimir effect proves it).

It is these fluctuations that allow spontaneous virtual particle creation to take place. Now we are talking on extreme scales - both in distance and time. Very sub-atomic and very short-term. For a brief moment the instantaneous energy value could be large enough for an electron/positron pair to exist. So they will exist, for a brief moment, before annihilating each other as the instantaneous value of the energy field drops.


--------------------
BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4627006 - 09/06/05 09:20 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

wouldn't that violate conservation of matter?

It does, and it doesn't.

The soup of virtual particles that appear, seemingly out of nothingness, only exist for a v-e-r-y tiny period of time close to the smallest interval of time that makes any sense; on the order of 10^-44 seconds.

This is close to something physicists call the Planck Time. Intervals shorter than the Planck Time don't make any sense because the equations involved give results like imaginary time (the square root of -1 seconds).

Virtual particles are 'allowed' to exist for such tiny intervals of time because the conservation laws aren't 'fast enough' to apply to them before they vanish from existence again, for lack of better language.

This isn't the only odd consequence of virtual particles. They are so odd, that some of them appear to travel backward in time for very brief periods close to the Planck Time, then go forward again after interacting with each other and with 'real' particles in various ways.

Things in the Quantum Mechanical world are nothing like the world we live in and very few things in that realm follow common sense.

Still, while these objects are theoretical, to-date, there has never been a single prediction of Quantum Mechanics that has been demonstrated wrong by experiment, and the theory explains in weird but beautiful ways everything around you except for gravity, which is currently a stubborn sticking point.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/06/05 09:26 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinepsychomime
o_O
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 520
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4627009 - 09/06/05 09:21 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

In a system of infinite possibility, every possibility will manifest into reality. much like the possibility of life. seemingly improbable but as Murphy's law says, "If anything can go wrong, it will"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
Up From Sloth
Male

Registered: 08/28/05
Posts: 668
Loc: LA
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4627023 - 09/06/05 09:33 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Each of us are abducted by consensus reality, which is the plain in which the human organism functions. The individual experiences insight into the harmony or greater structure of the universe, through drugs, prayer, anal sex, etc., and presents it to the rest of humanity for review. Lots of wacky ideas have come of this, concerning the nature of time and the existence of God and the effectiveness of swallowing urine to cure disease. The interesting thing about science is that it's a highly critical means of examining the world which we are each abducted by, and through trial and error and rigorous peer review, we're able to further probe the inherent harmony that exists all around us and arrive at some truths.

And thus your point about the atom: We know it to be true, and beautiful, and the clarity of our understanding makes us... wet, so to speak, haha. Ahem. And we're sent into religious fervor, into ecstacy, by knowing and comprehending the universe around us, because what we are is the very same as what is around us, only conscious. A node of self reflection in the vastness of our one being. Which leads us to speculate that it is design, and if we're abducted by ourself, the universe, then we must be the designers! But that gets sticky unless you take into account our "fall of man" myths...

...which basically say we're forgotten, in some terribly way. We've forgotten who we are. And the idea of gathering consciousness is to remember... We're born and everything is dark. And we spend our years searching for light. We're born as a species and everything is dark, and now at this moment we collectively are on the cusp of grokking what we've forgotten... and it might look like something else made it all but it was really us all along...

Basically it's the same as getting really drunk one night and forgetting what you did with your car keys. You spend all day looking for them, cause damnit! You need to go somewhere...


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop: Microscope, Scales

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Patterns vs. Design
( 1 2 3 all )
OrgoneConclusion 2,991 42 05/16/09 03:49 AM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
dr0mni 7,822 103 05/17/09 04:49 AM
by Darwinian
* Argument by Design Bullfrog1 923 10 12/09/07 09:38 PM
by Holly
* Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
DiploidM 9,242 102 08/10/05 02:54 AM
by MushmanTheManic
* (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 24 25 all )
mushroomhunter10 25,449 499 08/03/09 02:50 AM
by youbreakyoubuy
* Can awareness fit into an atom?
( 1 2 3 all )
onlynow 3,209 53 08/16/07 04:40 PM
by onlynow
* Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95
( 1 2 3 4 all )
OrgoneConclusion 5,491 75 05/22/09 09:11 AM
by youbreakyoubuy
* Stoopid Design
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
DiploidM 6,348 115 09/30/05 04:52 AM
by Diploid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
3,050 topic views. 1 members, 5 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Vaposhop
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 18 queries.