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How could atoms have not been designed?
    #4626677 -

Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626699 -

why should they be designed? For them to be designed, they would have to not exist at some point.

Supposedly the Universe was an unstable explosion of subatomic particles, and essentially their properties settled many of them into atoms and stuff.

besides, we aren't even sure if we can find the absolute smallest thing.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: vampirism]
    #4626716 -

Well the absolute smallest thing is a wee little thingy, it's tiny and very small, smaller than a dot and not very big.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Icelander]
    #4626781 -

Atoms, sub atomic particles, gravity, electro magnetic field, all that - existed always? If so - why, by accident? And by designed I must mean somewhere beyond time, since if such design took place, it could have been done by very inhuman, unimaginable ways, without any limitations we personally have, so why not atoms are her always, ant yet have been designed beyond time and eternity, by....


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

Edited by Psiledehysp (09/06/05 06:31 PM)

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626792 -

What makes you so sure that time (and the universe) has a definite starting point and ending point?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4626825 -

I think its more like repeating loop, if we consider time to exists, but if we do not, its more like eternity with everything that has happend and will happen - already has happend, but using past tense is wrong since time doesnt exist, and its all in eternity, or infinity... and I base it on absolutely nothing: just a thought, just a feeling, possibility.


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626856 -

Atoms are the way they are because if they were anything different we would not exist to question their creation.


--------------------
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http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4626870 -

Yes indeed I think that what atoms are have to do with what can come out of this (us) but just by accident?


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626897 -

why not? we cannot know how many times atoms have been otherwise.


--------------------
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http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626931 -

Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from?

Atoms are made from sub-atomic particles. Those particles in a way crystallized out of the energy soup that existed after the big bang. Mass and energy are equivalent, so under certain conditions energy will become mass - particles will literally pop "out of nowhere" as they are created by the energy.

But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously?

Yes, as I said they do all the time.

There is no such thing as "empty" space. Even in a total vacuum there are particles, called "virtual particles", that constantly pop in and out of existence at every point in the vacuum. They "borrow" energy from the empty vacuum for a few brief moments, then give it back when they annihilate into pure energy.


All chemistry, and biology, stems from a few simple rules (Laws) and a few simple peices (particles). From just three particles and four forces we get all that you see around you. Actually with chemistry/biology basically everything depends on just the interaction of electrons with eachother :eek:

It is a truly amazing system, "created" or not, and would take more than any one thread could hold to explain it all in it's detail.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: trendal]
    #4626944 -

trendal said:
But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously?

Yes, as I said they do all the time.


Unless other atoms spontaneously disappear (into the aether? another dimension?), wouldn't that violate conservation of matter?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4626950 -

So by repeating 3 or bilions of times, this world, came to biology, inteligence, evolution, love, hate, cadilacs - by chance. Well, it could have, I just dont seem to belive it could, but I take your answer as one explenation, it could have, after infinity of trial end error, wrong atoms, wrong number of dimensions etc..... And with wrong atoms, there were no us, no earth, sex, only wrong atoms? But mayby not wrong but different, with other, pardon the word, "things" that were possible...


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626955 -

but just by accident?

The Anthropic Principle, which psychomime paraphrased, addresses this.

If one (or some finite number of) state(s) of existence can give rise to beings that can ask the question, and the rest of the possible states can't, then it's just a lucky draw of the cards that the universe is such that we can exist.

If it had turned out otherwise, the universe would have now existed for ~15 billion years (give or take a day) absent of such beings as us.

Simple as that.

It would be very cool if some day evidence of a designer was found, but so far, no designer is in evidence even though people have been looking since the dawn of man. This hasn't stopped lots of people from inventing a designer and torturing, killing, warring, oppressing, inquisitioning, and committing assorted other atrocities in His name.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4626965 -

no it doesn't. they're virtual particles


--------------------
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http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4626974 -

If one (or some finite number of) state(s) of existence can give rise to beings that can ask the question, and the rest of the possible states can't, then it's just a lucky draw of the cards that the universe is such that we can exist.

If it had turned out otherwise, the universe would have now existed for ~15 billion years (give or take a day) absent of such beings as us.


Maybe I'm missing something...but that would mean that since dinosaurs couldn't ask such a question (as far as we know) then they shouldn't have existed?

Unless of course...do you mean any state of existence that can potentially give rise to such a form at any point of time?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4626982 -

Ok Trendal, but who set the rules, made appearing sub particles out of nowwhere possible? Or rather, not who, but how these rules have been set, by accident?  :smile:

Yes this is indeed amazing system...


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4626989 -

Technically, yes, but the conservation laws where written with a purely classical physics mindset. On the very microscopic scale, quantum laws become expressed and you get phenomena like virtual particles.

There is no such thing as "zero" energy, in the quantum world. You cannot say "this piece of space, a vacuum, has zero energy in it". The energy value may be near zero, but it will always fluctuate slightly up and down - quantum fluctuations. This is the vacuum energy, or "zero point" energy as many alternative types like to call it (but it IS real - the Casimir effect proves it).

It is these fluctuations that allow spontaneous virtual particle creation to take place. Now we are talking on extreme scales - both in distance and time. Very sub-atomic and very short-term. For a brief moment the instantaneous energy value could be large enough for an electron/positron pair to exist. So they will exist, for a brief moment, before annihilating each other as the instantaneous value of the energy field drops.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dblaney]
    #4627006 -

wouldn't that violate conservation of matter?

It does, and it doesn't.

The soup of virtual particles that appear, seemingly out of nothingness, only exist for a v-e-r-y tiny period of time close to the smallest interval of time that makes any sense; on the order of 10^-44 seconds.

This is close to something physicists call the Planck Time. Intervals shorter than the Planck Time don't make any sense because the equations involved give results like imaginary time (the square root of -1 seconds).

Virtual particles are 'allowed' to exist for such tiny intervals of time because the conservation laws aren't 'fast enough' to apply to them before they vanish from existence again, for lack of better language.

This isn't the only odd consequence of virtual particles. They are so odd, that some of them appear to travel backward in time for very brief periods close to the Planck Time, then go forward again after interacting with each other and with 'real' particles in various ways.

Things in the Quantum Mechanical world are nothing like the world we live in and very few things in that realm follow common sense.

Still, while these objects are theoretical, to-date, there has never been a single prediction of Quantum Mechanics that has been demonstrated wrong by experiment, and the theory explains in weird but beautiful ways everything around you except for gravity, which is currently a stubborn sticking point.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (09/06/05 07:26 PM)

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4627009 -

In a system of infinite possibility, every possibility will manifest into reality. much like the possibility of life. seemingly improbable but as Murphy's law says, "If anything can go wrong, it will"


--------------------
http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4627023 -

Each of us are abducted by consensus reality, which is the plain in which the human organism functions. The individual experiences insight into the harmony or greater structure of the universe, through drugs, prayer, anal sex, etc., and presents it to the rest of humanity for review. Lots of wacky ideas have come of this, concerning the nature of time and the existence of God and the effectiveness of swallowing urine to cure disease. The interesting thing about science is that it's a highly critical means of examining the world which we are each abducted by, and through trial and error and rigorous peer review, we're able to further probe the inherent harmony that exists all around us and arrive at some truths.

And thus your point about the atom: We know it to be true, and beautiful, and the clarity of our understanding makes us... wet, so to speak, haha. Ahem. And we're sent into religious fervor, into ecstacy, by knowing and comprehending the universe around us, because what we are is the very same as what is around us, only conscious. A node of self reflection in the vastness of our one being. Which leads us to speculate that it is design, and if we're abducted by ourself, the universe, then we must be the designers! But that gets sticky unless you take into account our "fall of man" myths...

...which basically say we're forgotten, in some terribly way. We've forgotten who we are. And the idea of gathering consciousness is to remember... We're born and everything is dark. And we spend our years searching for light. We're born as a species and everything is dark, and now at this moment we collectively are on the cusp of grokking what we've forgotten... and it might look like something else made it all but it was really us all along...

Basically it's the same as getting really drunk one night and forgetting what you did with your car keys. You spend all day looking for them, cause damnit! You need to go somewhere...


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: trendal]
    #4627042 -

Quantum mechanics is such a cool field because it defys all other laws of physics. Imagine if humans could just walk through walls (quantum mechanics says it's possible, though it would take nearly an eternity of attempting to do so, for all you people like me who dont know much about quantum mech).

What you're describing sounds like fluctuations in energy cause particles to be created and destroyed and all sorts of other effects on matter and these sub-atomic particles.

And that reminds me a lot of string theory...what do you think of it?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4627049 -

Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4627050 -

Diploid said:
Still, while these objects are theoretical, to-date, there has never been a single prediction of Quantum Mechanics that has been demonstrated wrong by experiment, and the theory explains in weird but beautiful ways everything around you except for gravity, which is currently a stubborn sticking point.


Isn't there a theory in the string theory that says that gravitons may actually be able to travel between dimensions?

Now that would be really cool


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: trendal]
    #4627075 -

Quote:
particles will literally pop "out of nowhere" as they are created by the energy.


True, like with quarks, it is easier to bring a quark and an antiquark from out of nothingness after a certain point as the energy between the quark pairs/ triplets increases with distance if I remember correctly. But where does the energy come from? Isn't energy just wave particles too?

Quote:
All chemistry, and biology, stems from a few simple rules (Laws) and a few simple peices (particles). From just three particles and four forces we get all that you see around you. Actually with chemistry/biology basically everything depends on just the interaction of electrons with eachother


There are dozens of particles in the Standard Model, so what three are you speaking of? The quark, the gluon and the electron? Or are you talking about the composite particles, namely the proton and neutron, plus the elementary particle of the electron? Just out of curiousity on which line of thought you're going on.

Though either way I think you forgot the photon. :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627076 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


:rofl2: What are you doing here Old?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627078 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


There is no free will.  :thumbup:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627114 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


even though there is no point to such arguments, it is interesting to hear what others think on such issues and even more interesting to see how others back up their arguments for and/or against. besides, things are going quite civil in this discussion, so what exactly is the problem?


--------------------
http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Icelander]
    #4627150 -

Icelander said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


:rofl2: What are you doing here Old?


what do you mean, here in this thread, or here on these forums?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4627157 -

psychomime said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


even though there is no point to such arguments, it is interesting to hear what others think on such issues and even more interesting to see how others back up their arguments for and/or against. besides, things are going quite civil in this discussion, so what exactly is the problem?


I just wanted to point out that this discussion is not going to end, it is simply going to stop


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4627166 -

Ravus said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


There is no free will.  :thumbup:


well don't know for sure as a general rule, but there sure isn't no free will on this forum.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627171 -

well seeing as it's a forgone conclusion, why not sit back and enjoy the ride? it's much the same as watching an adam sandler movie.


--------------------
http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627194 -

People aren't going to change their major beliefs because of a few posts in an internet discussion, but we can at least learn about opposing viewpoints and alternatives. I doubt any theists will suddenly become Nihilists, or atheists become devout Christians, but at least we can spread knowledge and look more into our viewpoints and make others look into their viewpoints. If we're questioned about our viewpoints, we're almost forced to think about why we believe something, while if we never discussed it we'd just continue on complacently. Isn't that really what philosophy is all about? It's not all about domination and annihilation of other viewpoints, but rather about gaining knowledge and questioning to strengthen the mind.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4627216 -

Ok guys, do your stuff, let 'er rip. I'm going to find a nice spot in the audience, and buy me some popcorn


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4627275 -

Me too, move over! :popcorn:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4627297 -

Diploid said:
Me too, move over! :popcorn:


would you mind?, that's my popcorn-supply seat  :mad2:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: psychomime]
    #4627321 -

A short skit, by Gulgen:

Quote:
Thousands of years ago...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:


Modern Day...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - "Rain is part of a complex cycle. The sun warms the oceans, evaporating the water. The water rises, condenses into clouds, and will later fall as rain, which then washes back in to the oceans"
Person 1 - "But how does the sun evaporate the water?"
Person 2 - "The sun emits particles of energy known as photons, which travel through space, and some will eventually hit Earth's oceans. These photons will increase the energy level of the water molecules they strike, and when they gain enough energy they'll become a gas and rise into the air"
Person 1 - "What's a molecule?"
Person 2 - "A molecule is the smallest block of any given substance, like the smallest amount of water you could possibly have. They're made of smaller particles called atoms"
Person 1 - "What about atoms? What are they made of?"
Person 2 - "Well atoms are made of smaller particles called protons and neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons are even made of smaller things called quarks, and it may even go further than that."
Person 1 - "Golly gee mister, that's complicated! Where did all that stuff come from anyway? Why does it all act like that?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:



:wink:

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4627578 -

Ravus said:
There are dozens of particles in the Standard Model, so what three are you speaking of? The quark, the gluon and the electron? Or are you talking about the composite particles, namely the proton and neutron, plus the elementary particle of the electron? Just out of curiousity on which line of thought you're going on.


I am, of course, talking about just the electron, proton, and neutron. They are, by far, the three most important particles when speaking of chemistry/biology. The anti-muon and tau nutrino don't play a huge role in chemistry or biology :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: GulGen]
    #4628849 -

GulGen said:
A short skit, by Gulgen:

Quote:
Thousands of years ago...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:


Modern Day...
Person 1 - "Why does it rain?"
Person 2 - "Rain is part of a complex cycle. The sun warms the oceans, evaporating the water. The water rises, condenses into clouds, and will later fall as rain, which then washes back in to the oceans"
Person 1 - "But how does the sun evaporate the water?"
Person 2 - "The sun emits particles of energy known as photons, which travel through space, and some will eventually hit Earth's oceans. These photons will increase the energy level of the water molecules they strike, and when they gain enough energy they'll become a gas and rise into the air"
Person 1 - "What's a molecule?"
Person 2 - "A molecule is the smallest block of any given substance, like the smallest amount of water you could possibly have. They're made of smaller particles called atoms"
Person 1 - "What about atoms? What are they made of?"
Person 2 - "Well atoms are made of smaller particles called protons and neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons are even made of smaller things called quarks, and it may even go further than that."
Person 1 - "Golly gee mister, that's complicated! Where did all that stuff come from anyway? Why does it all act like that?"
Person 2 - :confused: ( oh crap, I don't know! :shocked: Must look smart... can't admit ignorance...) "GOD DID IT!"  :grin:



:wink:


I like that, hehe.

But still...      Lets say this conversation goes on, in the future as well. More answers: quarks are blah blah, and because of other blah blah it is a blah, so it actually blah blah blah! The longer it takes the more we know about this system, the more complicated it is in our eyes, but question remains: where did it all come from and why does it act like that, did this system made itself? Did rules came out of their own rules?

As a side note, I also like this discussion, and must say that a lot of what have being said has changed my view a bit: its not the design of atoms I`m curious now, but the rules and system. I also like the idea that it could have happened million times before with much other results, but still why is it happening that million times, have someone pushed a button long time ago?


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4628851 -

but question remains: where did it all come from

It may be that the universe has always existed and never didn't exist, so it was not created.

This isn't intuitive, but just because it's hard to conceive doesn't make it untrue. This is akin to asking which is the first number. Since the counting numbers range from negative infinity to positive infinity, they have no beginning, and no end; they are a continuum.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4628868 -

""come to existence spontaneously""

:wink:


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Gomp]
    #4628874 -

""but question remains: where did it all come from""

God made Man in '*his' own image.. Christianity said.. 

it all came from, it all..
forget about linear time, for a moment..
and think of time, as ever dividable points..

ah.. he he screw it! h?h?
It all is a big house, whereas the house, is a room in it self..
(Not only fractals, no, no! )  :laugh:


*Usage Problem. Used to refer to a person whose gender is unspecified or unknown: ?He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence? (William Blake).




"God made the person, in his image, and God is not a person, but them all.."
-Unknown :P


(God = All in All) :crazy2:

I am with God, Through God, as God!
I am with Love, Through Love, as Love!
I am with me, Through me, as Me!
I am!


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Gomp]
    #4628882 -

The shortest distance between two points, is not a straight line, but none..

one point, IS the other.. it is just a matter of perceptions...
...


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4628892 -

I just see it as all being rather meaningless, and speculation about it especially so.

As we learn more and science continues to advance, the concept of God (for simplicity's sake I'll keep this monotheistic) gets shoved further away from everyday reality. Ages ago it was obvious that rain meant God was favoring you and was directly responsible for giving you a good crop. If thunder struck, He's smiting you.

Now we can see enough scientific reasons for everything that instead of making rain He might set in motion large weather systems in the middle of the ocean that eventually make landfall and lead to rain.

Okay, rain and weather is kind of a bad example here, since that's chaotic enough that we still can't understand very far out. Let's use the more subject-appropriate creation ideas. Originally, God created Earth, threw some stars up in the sky, put some people on the ground and called it good. Now we have enough science that, unless you want to be considered a crazy extremist, you pretty much have to believe what we've learned from advancements in science: The universe was created billions of years ago in a big bang (probably, still some debate on the specifics), eventually cooling into galaxies, and bits of those forming stars, solar systems, planets. If a God started anything, he either did it a long time ago or thought it'd be fun to screw with our minds and make lots of evidence towards that.

Similar development with creation of life. In the past (and still surprisingly common today), the idea was that God created all life as we see it. Simple. These days science can pretty clearly show a genetic lineage from all modern life back to very, very primitive, single-celled lifeforms. Again, if God made us, it was either a plan set in motion billions of years ago or made to look as if it was.

And just like it has always been, when there's a lack of answers otherwise, the answer gets defined as "God did it." A lot of people need the assurance of a higher power, and will latch on to anything unknown as proof that such a being exists.

But as I said in the beginning of this post, it really becomes meaningless when you get deep enough. We have pretty solid evidence that the universe came about, seemingly from nothing, billions of years ago. It's amazing, and a testament to how far we've come that we could even figure that much out. Figuring out what came before that, if anything, may well be impossible. Scientifically speaking, if there was a singularity at the beginning (may or may not have been the case), all physical laws break down and delving deeper into the past would be physically impossible. No matter how far we go, there will always be something that we don't know, and forever God will live in that place.

And what of God's origins? It's a classic argument: If God created everything, who created God? I see three possible counters to this:

1) God was created by another God, or is a being within another universe - That takes us right back where we started, just up one level.

2) God created Himself - And how did he do that? If things as amazing as gods can spontaneously come into existence, why not a universe?

3) God has always existed, or God lives outside of / created the concept of time - Hmm, can't think of a good argument against this one right now. I'll give that as an unknown that He can hide in.

And same for the rules. Who made the rules that God functions by? It's pretty much the same points.

I make no claims of such a being NOT existing, it's just that it's so easy to claim either way that I don't see how anyone can be so sure of themselves one way or another, and logic says that if there's no reason to believe something exists, it probably doesn't.

Either a universe or a God came into being without prior cause. I've got pretty solid evidence that the universe exists, so why add another step?


And yes, pointless as these conversations tend to be, they can be fun and interesting once in a while.  :wink:

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: GulGen]
    #4628923 -

Well its very simple, this univers is gods dream, and each of is a point of view in this dream, but since god is god, he`s dream is so powerfull that each of us is one of his points of view in that dream and he can have as many as there are beings, and - as being god - he`s dream summons to creation whole worlds.

When was universe created? When god started to sleep. When he awakens? When we smoke some DMT  :smile:


ps.  yeah, interesting stuff GulGen you are saying, must think more about it :smile:


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4629332 -

"Ok Trendal, but who set the rules, made appearing sub particles out of nowwhere possible? Or rather, not who, but how these rules have been set, by accident?"

i don't know if you've ever taken a general chemistrey class, but if you have and are reasonably intuitive, you'd probably realize that atoms interact the way that they do because it just WORKS. The electrons fill up their orbitals the way that they do because there is no other way. It's like 2+2=4. It works and couldn't be any other way.

the "physical" universe operates soley on priciples of ratios that can be expressed through mathematics. Math is`the only "design", and instead of asking why or how it works, you should be asking why it WOULDN'T work. it just does and so it just IS.

"Who made it so that 2+2=4?" is a question that searches for a valid answer, but the person asking is searching through invalid questions.

why do people constantly make this separation between science and religion? there is no true separation except the one between scientific reason and religious dogma.

science cannot disprove god, it can only try to understand god in a way that was never possible before. But it can never invalidate spiritual experiance. in fact, recent experiments regarding EEG scans and meditation actually PROVE spiritual experiance in a scientifically understandable way.

also, the testing of Bell's Theorem proved that there IS no true objective reality. The world is truly a coexistance of all possible probabilities that exist at once. Thus the particle-wave duality problem isn't even a problem any more, and cannot be thought of in terms of classical physics.

I don't know a whole lot about quantum physics, but i do know that the nature of reality must be contemplated as that of a quantum reality. Classical physics has long been dead.


--------------------

http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4629345 -

Yeah, so we're god, and stuff.


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4629362 -

Diploid said:
but question remains: where did it all come from

It may be that the universe has always existed and never didn't exist, so it was not created.


That's the precise argument that caused me to become agnostic. Because if time has always existed, then who can say that something else hasn't always existed? Perhaps everything has always existed, in a state of non-duality...


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4629489 -

Ravus said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


There is no free will.  :thumbup:


Our will cannot be different from God's will since our
will can only be an expression of his. Just as in genetics,
no son can express a gene that they do not have, where is it
that you think these genes are passed from?

Does the phrase "Man created in God's image" ring a bell to any of you?


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4631549 -

Quote:
Does the phrase "Man created in God's image" ring a bell to any of you?


sure does. however "God(s) created in Man's image" rings louder and more true.


--------------------
http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4631564 -

I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4631631 -

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though

:rotfl:  !


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4632175 -

ok, here goes (sorry it looks like first post i had to make a new account) anyway

this is not truth by any means, merely my perception of it all, which to me is almost as good as truth

atoms themselves (as we have discerned thus far) are merely energy, energy slowed to a stand still, but energy nontheless, frozen light if you will is what makes up energy. Now, when we look at how particles change state, i will use a large scale example, take water for example. If you take energy away from it, it changes states, it becomes a solid. The same is obviously true for the opposite, if you heat it it becomes a liquid then a gas. Now one can choose to leave it there, or break it down further (subatomic particles). Say that we do break H20 into h h and 0, now i am going to leave the hydrogen out of this just for simplicities sake and for clarity's sake. Take you oxygen atom, once it is split up it becomes a grouping of quarks and other such subatomic particles (of which i dont know the names for, but this is mostly theory because we can't see it anywho). Say you take one of those incredibly small subatomic particles and you heat it, heat it until it basically explodes, not explodes, but is transformed into soeley energy. What have you done, have you broken up the particle or have you merely changed its state of being.

Here comes into play the multiple dimensions some people believe exists (me being one of them). If you look at the virtual particles ( believe they are called, the ones that appear[with an particle and antiparticle at the same time and destroy each other in as quick a time] even in a vacume where no other particles are present. Where do those particles come from, obviously there is not a wealth of energy in the vaccume, nor is there very little. These particles seem to manifest randomly. I percieve this as something transdimensional. From some of the things i have experienced, i see reality as something not percieviable on this energy level, we must experience it with a form of consciousness that is higher in vibrational frequency (many people speak of this in reference to astral projection and the astral/etheric bodies)

If you look at it openly, perhaps these other dimensions are having effects on our own, they are actually causing energy fluxuations, which in turn cause physical manifestations in our own dimension.

From my pov this is where the physical came from, the consciousness in another dimension worked on its creation, manifesting it and using energy flow to create all that is to our knowledge, the laws, particles, you and i.


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4632842 -

Ravus said:
I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


I never though of it that way!  :mushroom2:  :crazy2: now my theory is complete!  :grin:


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4633064 -

Ravus said:
I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


You can cut an orange many ways but it still is orange.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (09/08/05 09:12 AM)

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4634080 -

Ravus said:
I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


I wouldn't focus in the type of chromosome but the fact that they are two. And yes! From One rib!

you speak so much truth without even knowing it...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634095 -

The Bible is ridiculous beyond all measure.

I read a Native American creation story today, where the first man made the first woman conceive by slapping her with a fish and telling her to multiply. She had a child one week later, and continued having children every week until the land filled up with children. The children then reproduced (how come ancient spiritual creation theories always relate creation to incest? :wink:) but the land became so filled with humans it changed so that women wouldn't have children more than once a year.

The fish reminded me of the rib story.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4634133 -

Ravus said:
The Bible is ridiculous beyond all measure.

I read a Native American creation story today, where the first man made the first woman conceive by slapping her with a fish and telling her to multiply. She had a child one week later, and continued having children every week until the land filled up with children. The children then reproduced (how come ancient spiritual creation theories always relate creation to incest? :wink:) but the land became so filled with humans it changed so that women wouldn't have children more than once a year.

Yes, but can't you see you base your story on multiplication, as creation comes into being by two. Duality. You are ignoring the real origin. I don't mean I have grasped it but I aim for it, no pretense. We are continually working on ourselves.

The fish reminded me of the rib story.

I don't know...I guess some people get it that way and they multiply. hahahaha!

I still think there are many paths but one way, Christ.




--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634141 -

I still think there are many paths but one way, Christ.

What about those poor tribes of people living in isolation in the Amazon who never heard of Christ. According to the bible, they can't enter heaven.

Did God fuck up here or is there some loophole they can use? :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4634152 -

Don't be silly! I'm not talking about Jesus Christ but Christ. Even though it is the same consciousness, I am not referring to his body. Christ is meant as a title.

EDIT: forgot tu use the word 'same'


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (09/08/05 05:19 PM)

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634158 -

Christ is in every part of creation.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634162 -

I love the Shroomery, I get so much inspiration.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634172 -

delusion, mind me askin you to put all your posts/mod's of posts in one, rather than having 4 in a row pls?

and i love the shroomery as well


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: TheGus]
    #4634187 -

no problem...  :crazy:


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634744 -

I'm not talking about Jesus Christ but Christ.

Alright, now I'm even more confused.

You're apparently using a different definition of Christ than most of the world uses and also different from the one in the Bible, and you didn't answer my question at all.

So now, three questions: the original and two new ones:

1. What is the definition of Christ, exactly.

2. What about those poor ignorant people who never heard of Christ. Do they go to heaven or not?

3. What if they believe in the Great Green Arkelseizure (their God who appears in the form of a giant nose), and not in Christ (because they never heard of him).

I'm not making fun of you; these are serious questions.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4635046 -

1. The reflection of God the Father (Absolute, the Holy Trinity as One) in manifestation. The Son or Christ is conceived by the Holy Mother or Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the creative force manifesting in Creation.

2. I am no one to say who goes to heaven or whatever you understand by it. It is said that the Kingdom of God is within, why look any further? Would this make it inaccessible to those who haven't heard of the "concept" of Christ? No, because Christ is not a concept.

3. I think it would be illusory. God the Father is beyond creation, he is unmanifested. Maybe large quantities of mush was consumed and now there is a collective psychosis :-P


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4635087 -

It is said that the Kingdom of God is within, why look any further?

Because the Bible is very clear when it says that whosoever does not believe in Christ cannot enter Heaven. Your statement contradicts this.

How do I decide which to believe, you or the Bible?

I think it would be illusory.

So you think your God concept is correct, and the Amazon tribe's God concept is illusory. The Amazonians think the reverse. (Tangent: this sounds remarkably like Islamic fundamentalists talking, only with different details.)

How am I to decide which path to follow? Both of you offer the same thing: contradicting statements unsupported by anything but your respective faiths.

I'm stuck, help me out.  :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4635095 -

When in doubt, follow the majority.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4635131 -

:rotfl:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4636849 -

Diploid said:

Because the Bible is very clear when it says that whosoever does not believe in Christ cannot enter Heaven. Your statement contradicts this.

It does? Care to elaborate? Believing in Christ does not mean in a theoretical way, but in practice. Believing is meant as communing, communion with Christ. I don't see how this contradicts if not the way you understand it.

How do I decide which to believe, you or the Bible?

I never said to be the way or anything like that :shocked:. It is not me or the bible. Maybe you are getting mixed messages.

So you think your God concept is correct, and the Amazon tribe's God concept is illusory. The Amazonians think the reverse. (Tangent: this sounds remarkably like Islamic fundamentalists talking, only with different details.)

Where are you going with this? Even my concept of God is illusory. I don't believe God to be a concept.

And I really love the way you put it...a big Nose you know...is this the big nose which breaths life into creation? Sounds very interesting after all...




--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4637531 -

Diploid, shouldn't you start a different thread for all those questions?

But to give you my opinion on them...

"Because the Bible is very clear when it says that whosoever does not believe in Christ cannot enter Heaven. Your statement contradicts this. How do I decide which to believe, you or the Bible?"

Trust in your own experiance. How can you make a decision on what to believe? It either contradicts your own experiance/reason/faith- and you don't believe it- or it fits in with your experiance/reason/faith, and you do believe it. The truth of god is revealed to all those who seek it.

You must also consider (as we ALL know here at S&P), that the bible has been interpreted, edited, manipulated, and changed over the past 2000 years.

Did Jesus mean that he was the sole manifestation of God (Christ) on earth and that he must be worshipped by us if we are to enter into the kingdom of god?

Or did he mean that he was only a single manifestation of God (Christ) and that if we let ourselves become filled with the spirit of Christ (Become manifestations of our godly nature) as he did, then and ONLY THEN can we enter the kingdom of heaven?

Do not take things as absolutes. For even fallacies have truth in them, and vice versa.


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4641981 -

Christ is a frame of mind. Try researching Sacred Geometry. All your questions could be answered by a little footwork.

I smell a rigid belief system. I smell a rigid control of words and their exact (only) meanings. I smell black and white and no in between.


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No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: mecreateme]
    #4642011 -

Quote:
Christ is a frame of mind.


I smell bullshit.  :wink: (We are talking about our noses now, aren't we?)

Can you explain Sacred Geometry more? To me, it seems to just be stable geometry that the universe may fall into, but it's no more "sacred" than any other geometry.

And what is sacred? How can something actually be sacred in a universe like this?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4642898 -

Trust in your own experiance.

So, if everyone can make up whatever they want and call it truth, even when it contradicts itself and also the teachings of others, what's the point?

The truth of god is revealed to all those who seek it.

Well, I've sought it and found nothing but self-deception and wishful thinking. What else can I tell ya...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: mecreateme]
    #4642900 -

Try researching Sacred Geometry.

Why do you presume I haven't?

Folk math is quaint, sometimes even interesting, but nothing more, and it certainly does nothing to address the questions I've been asking in this thread. :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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