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InvisibleRavus
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The Tao
    #4575841 - 08/24/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

As Rotten.com says, "The Tao that can be talked about is not the eternal Tao. Nevertheless, people try to talk about it all the time."

People talk about the Tao in such a way the implication arises that you can be more in the Tao in certain states than in other states. A supple tree will accept the wind more than an old, rigid tree, and those trees not unified with everything around them will die off.

But does this mean the supple tree is more in the Tao than those rigid, dying trees? In Darwinism, all life is part of natural selection, no matter how unlikely it is to thrive in its environment; perhaps it's the same with those living in the Tao.

And if it's true, and everyone is part of the Tao, no matter their philosophies or lifestyle, then one could question what the point of Taoism would be. For if the Tao is like existence, in the fact that we all are part of it whether we realize it or not, then why make Taoism a philosophy? All humans will be equally part of the Tao, just like all trees and stones are part of the Tao, because there is no way to exist without it. Any other way of putting it would assume that the Tao has priorities, which, if it exists, seems illogical; the Tao simply is. It's not blinded by senses or covered by thoughts, but simply flows in and creates all existence and nonexistence as one.

This makes the Tao all the more intriguing, because even though we are always part of the Tao, by some odd way the Tao is also enlightening as a concept. So perhaps it's not the Tao itself which makes some humans more in tune with it, but simply the humans holding the concept of the Tao? As the Tao itself, if it exists, transcends the simple concept and thoughts of humans into being the base of all existence; it is like the lowest ground which all water flows to, no matter how polluted the stream or how many windings it must suffer before seeing the ocean.

The Tao Te Ching would insinuate that humans can transcend the simple concept of the Tao though into simply being and existing; the concept of the Tao may seem enlightening, but in the end it is the same as all other philosophies in simply being a concept. I see people on these boards who claim to have "moral superiority" yet as I see them write their words and thoughts all I see is arrogance and assumptions; I believe these people are part of the Tao as is everyone else, but they are deluding themselves even more by being caught up in the mere concept of enlightening matters rather than freeing themselves from the concepts and arrogance and just being. Because one could argue that if a concept is not inherently there in the state of simply being, then it is extra, and this includes the concept of the Tao. That is why all words and even the thought of the Tao itself are not the eternal Tao, despite being part of it.

Assuming the Tao exists. :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4575874 - 08/24/05 07:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Nice post. Yeah that's about how I see it too.

For me it means freedom just to live out my life. No ultimate human judgment matters. It's up to each one of us to choose. And no choice is the right one or better to Tao. It's all one. So I choose a path with heart and follow my tao. I never tire of this quote from Don Juan. " A path is just a path. They all go into the bush and they all come back out again. And in the end they all meet. And the only thing that is important is, does this path have a heart."

I choose what makes me happy and whole to the best of my ability. You get to choose also, and in the end, it doesn't matter to the Universe which choice we make. Because the Tao does not judge or choose one experience over another. It is all experience.

Now the little tao, assumes the goal is to be happy. So it notices how nature works and trys to align itself in the way that brings the best result for achieving happiness. The little tao is not the Tao and so everyone is free to disagree and do it their own way. The result will be the fruit of that choice. That's why I like unconditional Love.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/24/05 08:00 PM)


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4575904 - 08/24/05 08:06 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Alan Watts made a good analogy about a running river where if one struggles against the current (tao), they are still being carried along by the current (tao) so they're still part of the tao, whereas one can swim along with the current (tao) and be more in tune with it.

So if you're swimming along the same wavelength as the current (tao), everything will appear still and you feel one with everything, whereas if you struggle and fight against the current (tao), everything (the water) is moving against you and you feel separate from the tao, even though it is still carrying you along.

Assuming the tao exists of course.

That make any sense?


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Tao [Re: ninjapixie]
    #4575909 - 08/24/05 08:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

That makes sense to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Tao [Re: Icelander]
    #4575912 - 08/24/05 08:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup: I agree for the most part.

Unconditional love is often seen as a goal to many people, but those who follow it or don't follow it seem to end up in the same place; if you walk along the streets, both people will simply be humans, eating, sleeping, living their lives in mostly the same ways. It's really the minor details that separate those who use love in their life and those who do not, but both people simply follow existence.

I've never been one to accept mystical or spiritual explanations, and the concepts of God(s), astrology, an external soul, astral planes, and all the other commonly spouted explanations lacking evidence have always seemed to be the ideas of Fluffernauts, as Swami would call them. But the Tao has always been different; the Tao is without a doubt a possibility, as the Tao could simply be that membrane of existence wrapping around everything. Existence itself is the greatest quandary; within existence we can isolate everything scientifically, explore it and its workings, and end up with greater subjective knowledge. But the existence itself almost seems unified beyond the simple explanations in being currently unexplained and unknown, yet at the same time experienced beyond anything else.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Tao [Re: ninjapixie]
    #4575913 - 08/24/05 08:09 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The much-maligned "couch potato" is actually in near-perfect alignment with the Tao.  :thumbup:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: The Tao [Re: Swami]
    #4575925 - 08/24/05 08:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The much-maligned "couch potato" is actually in near-perfect alignment with the Tao.  :thumbup:




Why do you think Mr. Potato Head was so popular?


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Tao [Re: ninjapixie]
    #4575930 - 08/24/05 08:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ninjapixie said:
Alan Watts made a good analogy about a running river where if one struggles against the current (tao), they are still being carried along by the current (tao) so they're still part of the tao, whereas one can swim along with the current (tao) and be more in tune with it.

So if you're swimming along the same wavelength as the current (tao), everything will appear still and you feel one with everything, whereas if you struggle and fight against the current (tao), everything (the water) is moving against you and you feel separate from the tao, even though it is still carrying you along.

Assuming the tao exists of course.

That make any sense?




Yet that assumes the Tao is moving in any one direction. When I look at the universe and all existence, I see it as still the same matter it was at the beginning. In the Big Bang, the universe was concentrated, and then moved in all directions, expanded into all space and time without any one current pulling more than any other. The Tao's characteristic is the state of existence, not any priorities or direction.

If the Tao is a river, where is it taking us? Everything is part of the Tao, so no matter what direction you move the Tao flows with you. Those who "go with the river" flow with the Tao as much as those who do not, for all rivers are simply built above the Tao and are manifestations of its existence.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4575965 - 08/24/05 08:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well he used the small t in tao. Hopefully that was on purpose. The flow of tao my be just the march of evolution on this one planet in this one Universe. It is just noticing how things tend to move. Like gravity. If you understand how gravity works then you can use it to your advantage. Still you can try to walk upwards if you choose.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4575988 - 08/24/05 08:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah Watts does assume there it is moving in one direction in his analogy.

But what I think he really meant was that if you struggle against life (tao), you will 'feel' separate from it despite still being a part of it. If you let go you will 'feel' more connected to it and realise you were always a part of it.


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4576011 - 08/24/05 08:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Unconditional love is often seen as a goal to many people, but those who follow it or don't follow it seem to end up in the same place; if you walk along the streets, both people will simply be humans, eating, sleeping, living their lives in mostly the same ways. It's really the minor details that separate those who use love in their life and those who do not, but both people simply follow existence.




I agree. Yet I hold a different meaning to Love than many. I use that word because I don't have another besides Tao. Yet to me they mean the same. Love is the manifestation of existence and experience. The force that creates. It is the place where nothingness explodes and manifests as our Universe. It contains all things that we call good and evil. Little love is the river of experience unobstructed. Pain and suffering and evil is the eddies and stagnant side currents. That's why someone can be experiencing pain and have it turn to joy. Yet nothing has really happened to the experience. They have moved back into the main current. I have myself experienced this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSerioOria
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Re: The Tao [Re: ninjapixie]
    #4576023 - 08/24/05 08:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i havent ever taken the time to study the tao, i feel kinda out of the loop but what you describe is actually rather close to my own belief, i hadnt put a name to it yet


--------------------
Live every day like it is your first
or
Live every day like it is your last
My ArT!!


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: The Tao [Re: SerioOria]
    #4576074 - 08/24/05 08:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SerioOria said:
i havent ever taken the time to study the tao, i feel kinda out of the loop but what you describe is actually rather close to my own belief, i hadnt put a name to it yet




I see you have Tool in your sig. :thumbup: I see alot of taoist and Alan Watts-inspired philosophy in Lateralus. That may explain why your beliefs are similar.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Tao [Re: SerioOria]
    #4576138 - 08/24/05 08:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

One experiences without Self to sense the World,
And experiences with Self to understand the World.
The two experiences are the same within Tao;
They are distinct only within the World.
Neither experience conveys Tao
Which is infinitely greater and more subtle than the World.

If you go to http://www.westernreformtaoism.org/home.php and look at the texts, you'll notice under Laozi they have five interpretations of the complete Tao Te Ching.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4576191 - 08/24/05 09:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I like this one very much.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4576208 - 08/24/05 09:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Unconditional love is often seen as a goal to many people, but those who follow it or don't follow it seem to end up in the same place; if you walk along the streets, both people will simply be humans, eating, sleeping, living their lives in mostly the same ways. It's really the minor details that separate those who use love in their life and those who do not, but both people simply follow existence.




if by unconditional love one means unconditional acceptance, as a cognitive feat, then i think it's always in a person's own interest to practice unconditional love.

unconditional care makes little sense to me. by caring for my opponent in a zero-sum game, i lose.

yet looking at something like the prisoner's dilemma, it's in a person's own interest to be caring by default, and stop caring if someone screws you. (not that i have a high opinion of conscious choice- but i do think this is how emotions tend to operate on their own)


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4576302 - 08/24/05 09:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"The Tao Te Ching would insinuate that humans can transcend the simple concept of the Tao though into simply being and existing"

The Tao does not suggest that one can transcend it. The Tao IS the WAY. You cannot transcend the WAY. You can work with it or fight against it. The Tao does not care, but following the WAY is much more efficient than fighting against it.

"but in the end it is the same as all other philosophies in simply being a concept."

The Tao is NOT a philosophy. It is simply the WAY. Look beyond the metaphors it uses and try to understand them instead of taking them literally. One more point: rotten.com is a terrible source of information. It is an exploitive web site that often publishes misinformation.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Tao [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4576363 - 08/24/05 10:07 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

"The Tao Te Ching would insinuate that humans can transcend the simple concept of the Tao though into simply being and existing"

The Tao does not suggest that one can transcend it. The Tao IS the WAY. You cannot transcend the WAY. You can work with it or fight against it. The Tao does not care, but following the WAY is much more efficient than fighting against it.




I said, "The Tao Te Ching would insinuate that humans can transcend the simple concept of the Tao," not that anyone can transcend the Way itself; that is impossible because we are the Tao. The concept is what blinds many people to the true Tao; the Tao isn't found in the human idea of it.

In such an abstract fabric that we are part of, trying to think of it as a concept or an idea will get you nowhere.

Quote:

The Tao is NOT a philosophy. It is simply the WAY. Look beyond the metaphors it uses and try to understand them instead of taking them literally. One more point: rotten.com is a terrible source of information. It is an exploitive web site that often publishes misinformation.




I wasn't talking about the Tao; if you reread the area you're criticizing, you'll see I was talking about the concept of the Tao. If you make the Tao into an idea or a concept, it simply becomes just another philosophy; the Tao is only found in the cessation of the concept, when you simply sit there and exist purely for a moment, as the Tao is found only in existence. The concept is part of the Tao, but will never reveal to you its much larger framework in which it is simply another screw.

And I find Rotten library to be extremely interesting, but each to his own.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4576397 - 08/24/05 10:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Fair enough.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineLuke
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Re: The Tao [Re: Ravus]
    #4577148 - 08/25/05 01:02 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
As Rotten.com says, "The Tao that can be talked about is not the eternal Tao. Nevertheless, people try to talk about it all the time."

People talk about the Tao in such a way the implication arises that you can be more in the Tao in certain states than in other states. A supple tree will accept the wind more than an old, rigid tree, and those trees not unified with everything around them will die off.

But does this mean the supple tree is more in the Tao than those rigid, dying trees? In Darwinism, all life is part of natural selection, no matter how unlikely it is to thrive in its environment; perhaps it's the same with those living in the Tao.

And if it's true, and everyone is part of the Tao, no matter their philosophies or lifestyle, then one could question what the point of Taoism would be. For if the Tao is like existence, in the fact that we all are part of it whether we realize it or not, then why make Taoism a philosophy? All humans will be equally part of the Tao, just like all trees and stones are part of the Tao, because there is no way to exist without it. Any other way of putting it would assume that the Tao has priorities, which, if it exists, seems illogical; the Tao simply is. It's not blinded by senses or covered by thoughts, but simply flows in and creates all existence and nonexistence as one.

This makes the Tao all the more intriguing, because even though we are always part of the Tao, by some odd way the Tao is also enlightening as a concept. So perhaps it's not the Tao itself which makes some humans more in tune with it, but simply the humans holding the concept of the Tao? As the Tao itself, if it exists, transcends the simple concept and thoughts of humans into being the base of all existence; it is like the lowest ground which all water flows to, no matter how polluted the stream or how many windings it must suffer before seeing the ocean.

The Tao Te Ching would insinuate that humans can transcend the simple concept of the Tao though into simply being and existing; the concept of the Tao may seem enlightening, but in the end it is the same as all other philosophies in simply being a concept. I see people on these boards who claim to have "moral superiority" yet as I see them write their words and thoughts all I see is arrogance and assumptions; I believe these people are part of the Tao as is everyone else, but they are deluding themselves even more by being caught up in the mere concept of enlightening matters rather than freeing themselves from the concepts and arrogance and just being. Because one could argue that if a concept is not inherently there in the state of simply being, then it is extra, and this includes the concept of the Tao. That is why all words and even the thought of the Tao itself are not the eternal Tao, despite being part of it.

Assuming the Tao exists. :wink:




The Tao is the water and which way the water flows.

There is no difference from the eternal Tao and the Tao. There is just the Tao.

Its an egoless projection of the now. I notice there is no words just images.

It is just chaos. The Tao is which way everything aligns and happens.
This still moment of slience with an image. The image is meaningless, it just represents the Tao.


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