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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4043937 -

OMG i cant believe that you just called a child's heart savage  :shocked:, generally children up until puberty are much more open and compassionate then an adult who's mind has been saturated by the impurities of this planet. I also disagree with the way you've phrased the ego to appear like some constructed solid entity when it is nothing of the sort. When a child enters this world he cries for food, shelter, warmth, his mother all of these are the continuity of the 'processes' of ego already apparent in his/her mind-stream. Intentionality is not at all alien to children, i remember distinctly as a child knowing without conditioning that my teeenage brother being cruel to our cats was wrong simply because i could see the pain it was causing those creatures. Whereas if i accidentally killed a spider or mosquito i would know very well that that action wasn't wrong or bad, because i didn't intent it. I believe that this basic morality it intrinsic to children as i have seen many examples in others again and again. Its human nature to know that killing is wrong, and we are closer to that state in childhood before our 'egocentric' change in adolescence. If you ask most people, they will tell you of the openess they felt as children, the sense of freedom and the heart felt compassion they had for others. Its only through conditioning that we lose this later in life. Morality is easy to most children, in fact most will say "I already know that. thats obvious".


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4043955 -

Whereas if i accidentally killed a spider or mosquito i would know very well that that action wasn't wrong or bad, because i didn't intent it.

Kind of like the innocence of a drunk driver who unintentially kills someone.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Swami]
    #4043960 -

But he intentionally got drunk and drove his car  :rolleyes:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4043966 -

How can you know another's intentions?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Swami]
    #4043979 -

Its just a silly excuse when someone says "I accidentally got drunk" becuase unless someone spiked there drink, they inteneded to do so. Furthermore how can one drive a car unintentionally?


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (04/12/05 04:40 AM)

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Swami]
    #4044741 -

Kind of like the innocence of a drunk driver...   :rolleyes:



How can you call a drunk driver innocent?

Did someone force him/her to drink?


Did someone then force them to then drive after drinking?


I think not.

Drunk drivers are far from innocent.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4044978 -

You love god more than her because god is more than her
but you can't love god without loving people, and by loving people you automatically love god.
The sad thing is, he did not brake up because of god but because
of Christian abuze of word god. Church is very selfhish for that word, they use it for their own good, like they own it.
God is what you call god, and what feels god to you


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4047400 -

Wow, what a fantastic thread!

"OMG i cant believe that you just called a child's heart savage , generally children up until puberty are much more open and compassionate then an adult who's mind has been saturated by the impurities of this planet"

The only thing pure about a child is their lack of conditioning, but I assure you that children are completely driven by their selfish desire to be fufilled.

The debate about morality is ongoing and never ending. The fact is though that common morals ARE needed to keep any sort of social structure together, especially a family.

Although it is sad that this couple had to break up, they obviously wouldn't have been happy with each other in the end.

My girlfriends family is exactly opposite of mine. Hers is a christian family with very strong morally convicted upbringing, who's parents are still together after 25 years. Mine is a family that is divorced. My father was raised catholic, though didn't practice very well, and my mother was agnostic. My parents couldn't agree on any aspect of child rearing, be it spanking, church service, or even naming. The lack of cohesion definitely had adverse effects like drug problems, anti-social behavior, doubt in the sanctity of marraige, etc, but at the same time produced very intelligent, creative, and strong children. Although my gfs family never made church service mandatory, their common beliefs kept them together and produced a daughter that has strong convictions, an unbelievable work ethic, and is very prepared to work inside of society. I can't say a lot about her brothers because I don't really know them.

While each family has good and bad qualities, mine isn't a COHESIVE family unit by any means!


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4047522 -

A certain degree of sympathy or empathy is available to SOME children, but these qualities are NOT the same as morality. Also, it is not my own opinion that I expressed but common knowledge among developmentalists and I was trained in human development and needed to familiarize myself with lots of research on this. Your individual experience of life is fine, but it does not outweigh decades of observation, experimentation, anecdotal reports. If you still hold an 18th century romantic notion of the innocent child, that is your choice to do so but it does not resemble reality in any way.

I would never have been cruel to a cat, but I went on search-and-destroy missions for 'bulby' spiders in a friend's basement. I still hate arachnids, and I was horrified to have found a dead scorpion in my pool this weekend. They are a mortal threat to me and I would destroy living one's on sight. The nature of a scorpion (even used in New Testament writings: "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone?... Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer a scorpion?") does not respond to Compassion - not even Christ.

"Its [sic] human nature to know that killing is wrong..." This statement is erroneous. Murder is different from killing, and even here the difference must be clearly delineated by codes of conduct: Hammurabi's Law, the Ten Commandments, the Wiccan "An Harm ye none," the Buddhist Ahimsa, etc. Killing is completely natural - for food or from fear. Premeditated murder must be discouraged for civilization to develop. If an infant could translate its rage of jealousy or frustration into action, even Freud says that it would murder.

Ken Wilber taught the "Pre-Trans Fallacy," which in effect is the single-most important thing he ever taught. The state of childood unconscious oneness is NOT IDENTICAL with the Enlightened state of Oneness. Neither is the ineffectual state of childhood equivalent to the Compassion of an Awakened adult. Rent the ORIGINAL film 'Lord of the Flies' for a realistic look at the veneer of civilization on adolescents. Most adults would be no different. It is not "the impurities of the planet," whatever that means, it is unregenerate human nature.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/13/05 07:58 AM)

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4047564 -

for a realistic look at the veneer of civilization on adolescents. Most adults would be no different. It is not "the impurities of the planet," whatever that means, it is unregenerate human nature.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

That would be the only realistic answer to the often voiced question, how did it begin, that we humans became so messed up.- :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Icelander]
    #4047637 -

I don't like these people that seem to make a "pact" with God.

If they go to church every sunday, be good, don't swear, wipe their asses, spread the word, then God will let them into his (his/her/it whatever) office.

Bullshit.

Heaven and Hell both exist on earth, death is when one returns the the "oneness", or becomes a PART of God once again, but in a quantum level.
We are all children of God, there is no doubt in that, but when someone makes a "deal" with God, and personifies God by worship, that is utterly ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with going to church, there is nothing wrong with religion. There is something wrong when God is used to manipulate people.

God is in all of us, God is everywhere, to deny a loved one for Gods appearent "will", is to deny God itself.

Be your OWN creator.

Fool.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (04/12/05 10:14 PM)

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4047929 -

I was taught morality as a child, and I eventually outgrew it.  :thumbup:

Children are natural human beings, filled with potential for love and wisdom. I wouldn't ruin that by indoctrinating them with someone else's "morality." What gives you the right to tell your child that this priest's way of implementing morality into the world is better than his own naturally developing one? Especially because I've found in the long-term it usually isn't, and if anything just adds chains to weigh a child down. This seems to spread beyond religion and culture, as wisdom and morality cannot be indoctrinated into people.

Children should be taught how to question useless morals, how to break old stale tablets of Thou shalts and smash golden commandments, not taught to simply become moral sheep whose spiritual progress in the first years of their life was taken out of their hands and given to a priest or a rabbi.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4048752 -

Its just a silly excuse when someone says "I accidentally got drunk" ...

Yet you started down this path with the "accidental, but unintentional" killing of a creature, then you switch directions. Please make up your mind so I can attempt to follow...

Notice that I made no real argument EXCEPT to mirror your own responsibility escape clause.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Swami]
    #4048832 -

Are you kidding? They are entirely different things. Accidentally stepping on a bug, and going to a bar and "accidentally" getting drunk and "unintentionally" drinving could'nt be more different situations. You are really getting your wires crossed here Swami.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Ravus]
    #4049258 -

Obviously someone close mishandled your own moral training. Your reaction is typical of a too-harsh imposition of the parental superego. Sorry for your present predicament, but morality needs to be 'shepharded,' not beaten in. It's OK to be one of the lambs if you have a Good Shephard.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/13/05 08:07 AM)

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4049531 -

egghead1 said:
You are really getting your wires crossed here Swami.



He gets a big kick out of crossing his wires.... :rolleyes:


Gotta have something to do with "electro shock therapy" because he does it all the time.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4050194 -

Why only some acts, some of the time? Please tell us then, where and when responsibility lies so that we may all learn.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4051087 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Obviously someone close mishandled your own moral training. Your reaction is typical of a too-harsh imposition of the parental superego. Sorry for your present predicament, but morality needs to be 'shepharded,' not beaten in. It's OK to be one of the lambs if you have a Good Shephard.


Judge lest not ye be judged  :smirk:

I'm against "moral training" not because I experienced it as a child, but because it's bullshit. There's no objective morality, and any "moral training" (that sounds a bit 1984ish for some reason) would simply be the subjective opinions of a man or organization imposed on a child. Newborn children are more natural and wise than mostly all humans I've met, and as they grow and learn their own beliefs and perceptions of reality I wouldn't want them to be corrupted by moral training.

Even if Jesus and Buddha were alive today and teaching children "moral training," I wouldn't force my kids to be preached someone else's viewpoint until they were of age to understand it, which would be around 14 or 15 at least, if not older. Unless a human can use knowledge and logic to question, refute and, if necessary, deny "moral training," they should not be subject to this forced spirituality.

Sheep are created from birth, after all. If parents waited until their children could question the information being forced into their heads, there'd be a lot less sheep in this world. A 5 or 7 or 10 year old child, whenever you start the "moral training," are not developed enough to question and refute the beliefs of an older experienced guru, leaving the child's mind mostly at the mercy of him doing the "moral training".

And please, let's call it something less euphemistic and more realistic, like "brainwashing children too young to question".


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Ravus]
    #4051259 -

The only instrction the Buddha gave to his child was "Do nothing that hrams yourself or others" I think this is the only morality you should teach your child at an early age. The child has to work out for himself what is harmful and what is not, and most children are pretty intuitive in that way anyway. So really their is nothing to be drilled into a child, but it maybe helpful in their pre- adolecence stage to show them the basic guidelines which you live your life by as an example for them just in case. Explaining to them why you follow your own guidelines is almost as important as being an example of them.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4051354 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
It's OK to be one of the lambs if you have a Good Shephard.


Wonder what you meant by that since you for some reason capitalized "Good Shephard".... christians have some weird superstition about capital letters.

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