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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sclorch]
    #1485920 - 04/23/03 11:48 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)


Hello again, I wanted to clarify a few things first.

"Naturally all trips will be different even given similar conditions, but I will bet there will be no QUALITATIVE difference."

Now this comment flies in the face of what I have believed for a long time, that intention was of great importance and that to trip without intent was to waste the experience. For me it boils down to this; that the Mushroom is an entity that exists with intention and responds to intention. I've believed this for a long time with no real proof, and since Swami is calling me out in a sense, I think the experiment is worth a shot. The results will probably mean nothing to most people but I'm doing it for myself primarily. The details have to be worked out yet, any suggestions are appreciated.



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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1485998 - 04/23/03 12:18 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Doesn't motivation or intention fall under "set"?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: buttonion]
    #1486041 - 04/23/03 12:30 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

i have a hard time understanding what spirituality actually means, its nothing that i can point at and say "this is spirituality", so i tend not to base my trips on that. but, i don't trip just for entertainment.

i feel like i've accomplished something after a long, exhausting trip, where my mind is on the verge of implosion, but i always come out ok, and a bit stronger mentality than before. its hard to apply what you learned in a trip beside seperating from your ego and realizing things exist that don't directly affect you.. other than that... shrooms are so far from my normal reality, that i tend to analyze and grow during my trip, but only in that reality, shrooms are a different reality, and can't be applied to my sober one.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: ]
    #1486281 - 04/23/03 01:33 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

LoOner: i have a hard time understanding what spirituality actually means, its nothing that i can point at and say "this is spirituality", so i tend not to base my trips on that. but, i don't trip just for entertainment.

That statement is wiser than most here will admit.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sclorch]
    #1488716 - 04/24/03 08:28 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

?"When all that could be called "religious" (naturalistically as well as supernaturalistically) was cut away from science, from knowledge, from further discovery, from the possibility of skeptical investigation, from confirming and disconfirming, and, therefore, from the possibility of purifying and improving, such a dichotomized religion was doomed. It tended to claim that the founding revelation was complete, perfect, final, and eternal. It had the truth, the whole truth, and had nothing more to learn, thereby being pushed into the position that has destroyed so many churches, of resisting change, of being only conservative, of being anti-intellectual and anti-scientific, of making piety and obedience exclusive of skeptical intellectuality?in effect, of contradicting naturalistic truth.
? ? Such a split-off religion generates split-off and partial definition of all necessary concepts. For example, faith, which has perfectly respectable naturalistic meanings, as for example in Fromm's writings, tends in the hands of an anti-intellectual church to degenerate into blind belief, sometimes even "belief in what you know ain't so." It tends to become unquestioning obedience and last-ditch loyalty no matter what. It tends to produce sheep rather than men. It tends to become arbitrary and authoritarian (46).
? ? The word "sacred" is another instance of the pathologizing by isolation and by splitting-off. If the sacred becomes the exclusive jurisdiction of a priesthood, and if its supposed validity rests only upon supernatural foundations, then, in effect, it is taken out of the world of nature and of human nature. It is dichotomized sharply from the profane or secular and begins to have nothing to do with them, or even becomes their contradictory. It becomes associated with particular rites and ceremonies, with a particular day of the week, with a particular building, with a particular language, even with a particular musical instrument or certain foods. It does not infuse all of life but becomes compartmentalized. It is not the property then of all men, but only of some. It is no longer ever-present as a possibility in the everyday affairs of men but becomes instead a museum piece without daily usefulness; in effect, such a religion must separate the actual from the ideal and rupture the necessary dynamic interplay between them. The dialectic between them, the mutual effect and feedback, the constant shaping of each other, their usefulness to each other, even, I would say, their absolute need for each other is disrupted and made impossible of fulfillment. What happens then? We have seen often enough throughout history the church whose pieties are mouthed in the middle of human exploitation and degradation as if the one had nothing to do with the other ("Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"). This pie-in-the-sky kind of religion, which often enough has turned into an actual support of daily evil, is almost inevitable when the existent has no intrinsic and constant connection with the ideal, when heaven is off some place far away from the earth, when human improvement becomes impossible in the world but can be achieved only by renouncing the world. "For endeavor for the better is moved by faith in what is possible, not by adherence to the actual," as John Dewey pointed out." - Abraham Maslow

I think this is what you're getting at Sclorch, am I correct? If not then I've missed your point. Consider this a lengthy bump.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

Edited by AislingGheal (04/24/03 08:37 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1488871 - 04/24/03 09:39 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

That lengthy quote, while correct, needs to have added to it that religion must pass the scrutiny of logic in order to have validation in the physical world.

Otherwise all it is is mumbo jumbo.

Cheers,

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: ]
    #1490506 - 04/24/03 05:31 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)


I would agree, and so would Maslow, the following is from the same chapter as the first quote;

"Very obviously, such values and such hungers cannot be handed over to any church for safekeeping. They cannot be removed from the realm of human inquiry, of skeptical examination, of empirical investigation." - Maslow


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1494110 - 04/25/03 06:13 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Spirituality is my entertainment, (Read or listen to Scott Peck's "Spirituality and Sexuality" to get the idea from a more "conventional" comparison) that is when I'm not watching women's volleyball or mud wrestling, beer commercials.


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"New shit has come to light..."

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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1494119 - 04/25/03 06:18 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Firstly, what you "say" would have no relevance, it is your mindframe. I can say anything I want, but without the mindstate to follow it doesnt much matter. Kind of like being real happy and saying "im miserable" with a big smile on your face....it wont make you miserable.




Then how do you explain the 10 story, Stay Puff marshmellow man?


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"New shit has come to light..."

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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sclorch]
    #1494688 - 04/25/03 11:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Some people don't see any spiritual side to them at all, and only see it as a drug and the effects of it are fucked up, others see it a tool with which to explore oneself.


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AH HA....

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1495361 - 04/26/03 05:42 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

There is where I break with Maslow. Supernatural things cannot be placed under "empirical" scrutiny unless one is talking about the historicity of a sacred text. Logic is a better over all tool.

Cheers,

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: ]
    #1495407 - 04/26/03 07:38 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

? ? "To summarize, the major changes in the status of the problem of the validity of B-knowledge, or illumination-knowledge, are: (A) shifting it away from the question of the reality of angels, etc., i.e., naturalizing the question; (B) affirming experientially valid knowledge, the intrinsic validity of the enlarging of consciousness, i.e., of a wider range of experiencing; (C) realizing that the knowledge revealed was there all the time, ready to be perceived, if only the perceiver were "up to it," ready for it. This is a change in perspicuity, in the efficiency of the perceiver, in his spectacles, so to speak, not a change in the nature of reality or the invention of a new piece of reality which wasn't there before. The word "psychedelic" (consciousness-expanding) may be used here. Finally, (D) this kind of knowledge can be achieved in other ways; we need not rely solely on peak-experiences or peak-producing drugs for its attainment. There are more sober and laborious?and perhaps, therefore, better in some ways in the long run?avenues to achieving transcendent knowledge (B-knowledge). That is, I think we shall handle the problem better if we stress ontology and epistemology rather than the triggers and the stimuli." - Maslow

My take on it is this; the supernatural can be placed under empirical scrutiny at the point where it impinges on the natural world. If I'm off the mark then have at me.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

Edited by AislingGheal (04/26/03 07:40 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1495418 - 04/26/03 08:00 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

When read one way I would have to agree but if read another way I would disagree. I would need a bit more context to see exactly what he is driving at. This part:

"To summarize, the major changes in the status of the problem of the validity of B-knowledge, or illumination-knowledge, are: (A) shifting it away from the question of the reality of angels, etc., i.e., naturalizing the question;...."

is interesting. If an angel does not impinge upon reality, i.e. natural plane, can we still have evidence that it might exist? Yes, I think we can. And in order to deduce that we would then have to rely on philosophical evidence without empirical evidence. Now, I know that seems difficult but it really isn't. And how that is accomplished would take more time to explain than I have.

I would agree with your statement though.

Cheers,

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