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InvisibleSwami
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Tripping & Intent
    #1482001 - 04/22/03 10:06 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I hear this time and again: Are you tripping for spiritual reasons or just for entertainment? (or some variation thereof)

Do you eat food for entertainment or for nourishment? No matter what your "motivation", your body will process the food EXACTLY the same and provide the same benefits (or detriments).

As your body will digest psychedelic mushrooms exactly the same way as LBMs on your pizza, your "motivation" for ingestion has no bearing on any physiological changes.

Before commenting, please do not confuse mood (angry, sad, depressed), body state (sick, tired, rundown), setting (alone in mountains or wild party) with "motivation".

"But Swami, we are talking about PSYCHOLOGICAL changes."

Sho 'nuff, but I do not see intent as a contributing factor. Do this experiment: measure out two (nearly) identical and relatively high doses from the same batch. Trip alone at the same place, the same time of day, and as near as possible, in the same mindframe, but several weeks apart.

On trip 1 tell yourself, "I am doing this for entertainment." Sit still and note what happens. Immediately afterwards write down your thoughts in a log.

On trip 2 tell yourself, "I am doing this for spiritual purposes." Sit still and note what happens. Immediately afterwards write down your thoughts in a log.

Naturally all trips will be different even given similar conditions, but I will bet there will be no QUALITATIVE difference.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (04/22/03 11:12 AM)

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Invisibleperuvian spark
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482076 - 04/22/03 10:48 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

No matter what my initial intentions are, I always end up in the same place when I eat mushrooms. My conscience guides me to where I need to be no matter where I started from. It's all a matter of opinion though, because some people will always say that mushrooms are spiritual, and some people will always say they aren't. I see eating mushrooms as a good opportunity to learn something about yourself, others, and the world in general, and I choose not to waste it.


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"The only unchangeable certainty is that nothing is certain and everything is changeable."

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482133 - 04/22/03 11:15 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)


I agree with what you've written and I'm going to try your experiment just to see what happens, I think it is an excellent idea and I'm curious about the results. I think your bet is safe but we'll see.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482304 - 04/22/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

So you want to isolate the ?consciously willed intention? to see if it has any effect on the shrooming experience itself. I can see how at pretty high doses, any intention you began with is pretty much lost in the emotional roller coaster and/or perceptual craziness that ensues. Memory itself is distorted so simply keeping the idea in mind could be next to impossible. And so maybe because the intention is essentially lost (at high doses) it has no causal power. But whenever I do intend to do something specific with my trip, I definitely plan out set and setting appropriately (time of day, music, meditation beforehand, out in nature). Although my ability to make a trip more spiritual or otherwise may be due to the set and setting I have put into place, this is ultimately due to the intention I had prior to ingestion.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482397 - 04/22/03 12:44 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Trip alone at the same place, the same time of day, and as near as possible, in the same mindframe, but several weeks apart.





There is no way you can recreate set and setting perfectly and as a trip depends on this the experiment is already flawed. Even a slight change may mean the difference between a good and bad trip. How can you recreate mindframe (several weeks apart) my friend?

I think you need to be clearer on the differences, in intention, between the 2 trips.
Surely it is not enough to tell oneself "I am doing this for entertainment" especially as in truth the individual may be hoping for a spiritual experience or vice versa



--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482407 - 04/22/03 12:47 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

There is no way you can recreate set and setting perfectly and as a trip depends on this the experiment is already flawed.

Quite possibly so as I already alluded to. Therefore talking about a spiritual vs. a recreational trip is meaningless would you say?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482412 - 04/22/03 12:51 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

explain yourself?
Im not being led into a little trap so you can prove a point :tongue:


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get it all together get like birds of a feather

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482428 - 04/22/03 12:56 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Trap?

If a controlled experiment is flawed, then by mere extrapolation, uncontrolled experiments (random trips with various settings) must be even more flawed - thus the whole discussion of intent, which permeates many threads on these boards, is meaningless.

Back to you...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482440 - 04/22/03 01:03 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

It is not a control experiment though is it...

With my first post on this thread I was saying how you can not recreate an exact set and setting, and as set and setting are so important, your experiment is flawed.

So what have previose discussions on intent concluded?
I fail to see how this proves your point.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather

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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482562 - 04/22/03 01:53 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Swami, take this into consideration.



Firstly, what you "say" would have no relevance, it is your mindframe. I can say anything I want, but without the mindstate to follow it doesnt much matter. Kind of like being real happy and saying "im miserable" with a big smile on your face....it wont make you miserable.




Secondly, Im not sure I understand the whole post. What is it you are looking for, that is a change based on your intentions before the trip.  You said not mood, or body state.


Are you referring to people asking why someone trips, and saying it doesnt matter at all?

Or are you saying peolpe are thinking there are 2 different types of trippers, spiritual and ones who trip for fun?


If the latter, I understand and can explain.



Someone who trips for fun, although the thoughts and feelings of the trip are identical, MIGHT NOT GET THE SAME OUT OF IT.

Its the same as 2 people fasting. Doing the EXACT SAME FAST, two identical twins. One does it to lose weight, the other one, although the same weight does not care, and does it for a spiritual experience.

The one who does it to lose weight feels great because he lost weight.  The other one feels great because he is "closer to god" and closer to himself, etc.



See what I mean?  The actual trip might be the same, but the interpretation itself is different, how you ANALYZE the trip AFTERWARDS that might matter, or even how you deal with it as it happens.



I think it depends more on person to person however, then on what you say before you trip  :wink:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482712 - 04/22/03 02:29 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Intent (purpose) should not be confused with interpretation (cultural filter).


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482775 - 04/22/03 02:42 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I've learned that most of the time on my mushroom trips, regardless of my INTENT going into it, the INTERPRETATION of the experience that follows is usually pretty similar to my other trips.... It seems that no matter what my intent is going into a trip, it changes as soon as I'm actually tripping,and I laugh at myself for thinking that I control the experience..... by the end of the trip I see how pointless it was for me to attempt to focus on one specific objective during the trip - letting it flow seems to make it so much more "devine" than trying to solve one specific problem or get one specific answer about something.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (04/22/03 02:48 PM)

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1482849 - 04/22/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)


I'm equating intent as an exercise of will and I feel your experiment will possibly shed some light on the matter, so I will not argue semantics. I would not use a high dose either because that would obviously nullify the experiment. Again, this is out of curiosity, why not try it?

"If a controlled experiment is flawed, then by mere extrapolation, uncontrolled experiments (random trips with various settings) must be even more flawed - thus the whole discussion of intent, which permeates many threads on these boards, is meaningless."

Which is why I would want to try it, because I always approach mushrooms with "spiritual intent" and I wonder if redirecting my purpose would alter the experience in any noticeable way.



--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1482938 - 04/22/03 03:19 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I would not use a high dose either because that would obviously nullify the experiment.

Please explain. 3.5 + grams would seem to me to better than 0.5 grams as lower doses would leave you more access to your normal consciousness and therefore be less valid.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1483197 - 04/22/03 04:58 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)


So you are trying to see if mushrooms just activate parts of the brain at a certian rate and that it would be the same effect both times? That seems like a possability, but this experiment can't possably be 100% accurate imo.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1483447 - 04/22/03 06:02 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i do it for punishment


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1484117 - 04/22/03 08:37 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)


I was thinking more like 2-3 grams as opposed to 5-6, I want to be functional to some extent. I have to figure out how to internalize the "lets just have fun" intention. If I was tripping with good friends no problem, but I usually trip alone with a spiritual purpose and a particular setting. I want to maintain the solitude and setting and just change the intent. I'll post more on this a little later.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1484322 - 04/22/03 09:20 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I hear this time and again: Are you tripping for spiritual reasons or just for entertainment? (or some variation thereof)



Combination of both.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1485023 - 04/23/03 12:45 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Will be interested in hearing your report as the general consensus (if there is one) is that set & setting are already indicative of intent.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1485072 - 04/23/03 01:10 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Swami: in the same mindframe,
...
but I will bet there will be no QUALITATIVE difference.


The same mindframe? Is that a typo?
If you have the same mindframe (equiv. to "set"- as in "mindset"), then you won't be able to have a qualitatively different experience.

I think I know what you're saying though... let me try to clarify.

If you're saying
Person with mindset A trips with intent X.
is no different than
Person with mindset A trips with intent Y.

Then I agree that there will be no qualitative difference.

However, most people (when speaking of spiritual vs. entertainment intentions) are speaking of the following:
Person with mindset A trips with intent X.
which is much different than
Person with mindset B trips with intent Y.


At least, that's what I've gathered....

[EDIT: I don't think mindset is necessarily indicative of intent.]


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (04/23/03 01:13 AM)

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sclorch]
    #1485920 - 04/23/03 11:48 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)


Hello again, I wanted to clarify a few things first.

"Naturally all trips will be different even given similar conditions, but I will bet there will be no QUALITATIVE difference."

Now this comment flies in the face of what I have believed for a long time, that intention was of great importance and that to trip without intent was to waste the experience. For me it boils down to this; that the Mushroom is an entity that exists with intention and responds to intention. I've believed this for a long time with no real proof, and since Swami is calling me out in a sense, I think the experiment is worth a shot. The results will probably mean nothing to most people but I'm doing it for myself primarily. The details have to be worked out yet, any suggestions are appreciated.



--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1485998 - 04/23/03 12:18 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Doesn't motivation or intention fall under "set"?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: buttonion]
    #1486041 - 04/23/03 12:30 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i have a hard time understanding what spirituality actually means, its nothing that i can point at and say "this is spirituality", so i tend not to base my trips on that. but, i don't trip just for entertainment.

i feel like i've accomplished something after a long, exhausting trip, where my mind is on the verge of implosion, but i always come out ok, and a bit stronger mentality than before. its hard to apply what you learned in a trip beside seperating from your ego and realizing things exist that don't directly affect you.. other than that... shrooms are so far from my normal reality, that i tend to analyze and grow during my trip, but only in that reality, shrooms are a different reality, and can't be applied to my sober one.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: ]
    #1486281 - 04/23/03 01:33 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

LoOner: i have a hard time understanding what spirituality actually means, its nothing that i can point at and say "this is spirituality", so i tend not to base my trips on that. but, i don't trip just for entertainment.

That statement is wiser than most here will admit.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sclorch]
    #1488716 - 04/24/03 08:28 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

?"When all that could be called "religious" (naturalistically as well as supernaturalistically) was cut away from science, from knowledge, from further discovery, from the possibility of skeptical investigation, from confirming and disconfirming, and, therefore, from the possibility of purifying and improving, such a dichotomized religion was doomed. It tended to claim that the founding revelation was complete, perfect, final, and eternal. It had the truth, the whole truth, and had nothing more to learn, thereby being pushed into the position that has destroyed so many churches, of resisting change, of being only conservative, of being anti-intellectual and anti-scientific, of making piety and obedience exclusive of skeptical intellectuality?in effect, of contradicting naturalistic truth.
? ? Such a split-off religion generates split-off and partial definition of all necessary concepts. For example, faith, which has perfectly respectable naturalistic meanings, as for example in Fromm's writings, tends in the hands of an anti-intellectual church to degenerate into blind belief, sometimes even "belief in what you know ain't so." It tends to become unquestioning obedience and last-ditch loyalty no matter what. It tends to produce sheep rather than men. It tends to become arbitrary and authoritarian (46).
? ? The word "sacred" is another instance of the pathologizing by isolation and by splitting-off. If the sacred becomes the exclusive jurisdiction of a priesthood, and if its supposed validity rests only upon supernatural foundations, then, in effect, it is taken out of the world of nature and of human nature. It is dichotomized sharply from the profane or secular and begins to have nothing to do with them, or even becomes their contradictory. It becomes associated with particular rites and ceremonies, with a particular day of the week, with a particular building, with a particular language, even with a particular musical instrument or certain foods. It does not infuse all of life but becomes compartmentalized. It is not the property then of all men, but only of some. It is no longer ever-present as a possibility in the everyday affairs of men but becomes instead a museum piece without daily usefulness; in effect, such a religion must separate the actual from the ideal and rupture the necessary dynamic interplay between them. The dialectic between them, the mutual effect and feedback, the constant shaping of each other, their usefulness to each other, even, I would say, their absolute need for each other is disrupted and made impossible of fulfillment. What happens then? We have seen often enough throughout history the church whose pieties are mouthed in the middle of human exploitation and degradation as if the one had nothing to do with the other ("Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"). This pie-in-the-sky kind of religion, which often enough has turned into an actual support of daily evil, is almost inevitable when the existent has no intrinsic and constant connection with the ideal, when heaven is off some place far away from the earth, when human improvement becomes impossible in the world but can be achieved only by renouncing the world. "For endeavor for the better is moved by faith in what is possible, not by adherence to the actual," as John Dewey pointed out." - Abraham Maslow

I think this is what you're getting at Sclorch, am I correct? If not then I've missed your point. Consider this a lengthy bump.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

Edited by AislingGheal (04/24/03 08:37 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1488871 - 04/24/03 09:39 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

That lengthy quote, while correct, needs to have added to it that religion must pass the scrutiny of logic in order to have validation in the physical world.

Otherwise all it is is mumbo jumbo.

Cheers,

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: ]
    #1490506 - 04/24/03 05:31 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)


I would agree, and so would Maslow, the following is from the same chapter as the first quote;

"Very obviously, such values and such hungers cannot be handed over to any church for safekeeping. They cannot be removed from the realm of human inquiry, of skeptical examination, of empirical investigation." - Maslow


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Swami]
    #1494110 - 04/25/03 06:13 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Spirituality is my entertainment, (Read or listen to Scott Peck's "Spirituality and Sexuality" to get the idea from a more "conventional" comparison) that is when I'm not watching women's volleyball or mud wrestling, beer commercials.


--------------------
"New shit has come to light..."

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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1494119 - 04/25/03 06:18 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Firstly, what you "say" would have no relevance, it is your mindframe. I can say anything I want, but without the mindstate to follow it doesnt much matter. Kind of like being real happy and saying "im miserable" with a big smile on your face....it wont make you miserable.




Then how do you explain the 10 story, Stay Puff marshmellow man?


--------------------
"New shit has come to light..."

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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: Sclorch]
    #1494688 - 04/25/03 11:40 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Some people don't see any spiritual side to them at all, and only see it as a drug and the effects of it are fucked up, others see it a tool with which to explore oneself.


--------------------
AH HA....

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1495361 - 04/26/03 05:42 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

There is where I break with Maslow. Supernatural things cannot be placed under "empirical" scrutiny unless one is talking about the historicity of a sacred text. Logic is a better over all tool.

Cheers,

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: ]
    #1495407 - 04/26/03 07:38 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

? ? "To summarize, the major changes in the status of the problem of the validity of B-knowledge, or illumination-knowledge, are: (A) shifting it away from the question of the reality of angels, etc., i.e., naturalizing the question; (B) affirming experientially valid knowledge, the intrinsic validity of the enlarging of consciousness, i.e., of a wider range of experiencing; (C) realizing that the knowledge revealed was there all the time, ready to be perceived, if only the perceiver were "up to it," ready for it. This is a change in perspicuity, in the efficiency of the perceiver, in his spectacles, so to speak, not a change in the nature of reality or the invention of a new piece of reality which wasn't there before. The word "psychedelic" (consciousness-expanding) may be used here. Finally, (D) this kind of knowledge can be achieved in other ways; we need not rely solely on peak-experiences or peak-producing drugs for its attainment. There are more sober and laborious?and perhaps, therefore, better in some ways in the long run?avenues to achieving transcendent knowledge (B-knowledge). That is, I think we shall handle the problem better if we stress ontology and epistemology rather than the triggers and the stimuli." - Maslow

My take on it is this; the supernatural can be placed under empirical scrutiny at the point where it impinges on the natural world. If I'm off the mark then have at me.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

Edited by AislingGheal (04/26/03 07:40 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Tripping & Intent [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1495418 - 04/26/03 08:00 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

When read one way I would have to agree but if read another way I would disagree. I would need a bit more context to see exactly what he is driving at. This part:

"To summarize, the major changes in the status of the problem of the validity of B-knowledge, or illumination-knowledge, are: (A) shifting it away from the question of the reality of angels, etc., i.e., naturalizing the question;...."

is interesting. If an angel does not impinge upon reality, i.e. natural plane, can we still have evidence that it might exist? Yes, I think we can. And in order to deduce that we would then have to rely on philosophical evidence without empirical evidence. Now, I know that seems difficult but it really isn't. And how that is accomplished would take more time to explain than I have.

I would agree with your statement though.

Cheers,

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