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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Something, I dont think I will ever understand....
    #4039558 - 04/11/05 02:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So, im talking to this guy last night and he tells me about how he just recently broke up with his fiancee. So I ask why. He says "we had religious differences". So, I was a little confused and asked him to elaborate. Summary: they started talking about children and he said he would take them to church and she said no way. This is what they broke up over, he says he is still madly in love with her, that she is the perfect girl and all....but since they had this religious difference (something they both knew all the 3 years they were dating) it was something that he had to "walk away from".

HERE IS THE PART I DONT GET....

so, at a very drunken 5 am, after talking about this for about 2 hours... I finally ask him "who do you love more: her... or God?" and without hesitation, he said God.

I have heard most christians say this, and I am not saying that they dont love God more than anything else...but why? why would anyone give up what they thought to be the absolute greatest woman in the world over something as petty as religion?


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Offlineemptywisdom
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4039618 - 04/11/05 02:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Loveing god includes her, can't love god without loveing her, really, but it does not necessarily go the other way. It's really sad that they broke up over something like that, but they are aparently in very diferent places. It's better it came up now than latter.


--------------------


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/17/03
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: emptywisdom]
    #4039630 - 04/11/05 02:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

emptywisdom said:
Loveing god includes her, can't love god without loveing her, really, but it does not necessarily go the other way. It's really sad that they broke up over something like that, but they are aparently in very diferent places. It's better it came up now than latter.




Good point. Although not being all that much of a religious person, it still seems kinda silly to me to end a relationship over something like that....


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OfflineShagshow
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4039634 - 04/11/05 02:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I have heard most christians say this, and I am not saying that they dont love God more than anything else...but why? why would anyone give up what they thought to be the absolute greatest woman in the world over something as petty as religion?



Fear of something no intelligence has been able to disprove, that they won't go to heaven if they don't obey what rules they do see fit.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4039640 - 04/11/05 02:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Petty children... he never loved her for her god obviosly, else he wouldn't have fallen for her to begin with. I love how we assign characteristics on the basis of beliefs.

Nothing against Christians (not my direct intent, however I suppose it is against them), but really, the belief in god should fullfill you as an individual, not isolate you form others.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineCaptainJailew
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4039806 - 04/11/05 03:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I have heard most christians say this, and I am not saying that they dont love God more than anything else...but why? why would anyone give up what they thought to be the absolute greatest woman in the world over something as petty as religion?




I am not a religious person, but I try to be empathetic. If someone seriously believes in their system of faith, and thinks that a woman will stop them from allowing their children (everyone knows of the immense love between parents/children) to go to church, then h e thinks she is basically sentencing them to hell. Maybe he doesn't think this, but it is the rationale I have heard from many people I have gotten into discussions with.

If I KNEW for a fact (and lets assume your friend has so much faith that he would call it a fact) that I could either get married, have kids and then have them tormented for eternity in the fiery depths of hell, OR not get married and spare my future children that fate - i would err on the side of caution.

I can see where he may be coming from, but i disagree whole-heartedly as well.


--------------------
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein



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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4039929 - 04/11/05 04:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun:
.
TELL HIM TO GET BACK WITH HIS WOMAN....! 
If he TRULY LOVES HER, and she loves him, that is the part that "matters" here.... 
You do NOT have to go to CHURCH to talk about, nor understand GOD.... 
GOD is not just sitting at "churches" waiting for you to go, GOD is everywhere and everything.... 
GOD does not want people to be seperated over religious "beliefs"....  Cripes...!
.
I don't know where it is in the Bible, but have him look up "Fellowship" in it.... 
Then (lightly)smack him upside the head and tell him to go be happy with his woman....!  :heart:
.
:sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4039976 - 04/11/05 05:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
why would anyone give up what they thought to be the absolute greatest woman in the world over something as petty as religion?






Because uberreligious people are.....



S T U P I D



Going to church is not a requirement for believing in "god" or the "bible".

It can be taught at home.

By example. Not by dogmaticaly going to a building on a certain day of the week and giving a preacher      $$$$$. to tell me what a sinner I am  :rolleyes:





uberreligious people are STUPID


-


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: niteowl]
    #4040041 - 04/11/05 07:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

sounds difficult and unbalanced.
lots of sangsara


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4040269 - 04/11/05 10:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

She's better off.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4040566 - 04/11/05 12:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

intuition ...

:wink:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4040573 - 04/11/05 12:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

They made the best decision and it took a lot of maturity and foresight on their parts to do it. I applaud them for splitting up now over that issue.

Marriages that make it have one thing in common and that is, the couples share common life goals. These two obviously had very different "vision goals" for themselves and how their children would be raised. One is headed to Heaven through the Bible and the church taking their children with them and one is not. Eventually, their roads are bound to split.

One of the top 5 reasons for divorce is differences over how the children are to be raised. FYI for the young and unmarried here, financial stress tops it, child raising issues are second followed by stresses due to moves and career changes or the death of a child. Infidelity was 6th on the list.

I credit them for discussing this ahead of time. To many rush into marriage because "they are in love" and have kids because they are "in love" and then the fundamental differences, romantic love/great sex was to blind to see start popping up. The children are exposed to all of the fighting and then they are in divorce court and children are being fought over and shuffled around.

Parents need to hold a united front on how they are to be raised if they are going to raise stable, mentally and emotionally healthy children. When hot and cold fronts meet, you get very unstable weather and nasty destructive storms.

The statistics have that couple doomed and their children would have been the causality. Just imagine the mixed messages they would've gotten from parents with such differing religious views. Mommy says this and daddy says that who is right? One must be wrong? Who can I trust or believe in? Their children would have been very insecure and untrusting of their parents in that potential family and as authority figures.

Every couple I know who went into it with differing religious views and had children ended up divorced. The only way it would have a chance is if one can easily allow the other parent to have their way when it comes to religious or non religious child rearing and they would have to support it against their own views and self.

Imagine what that would take to be that big of a person and not fall into resentment or renege on the deal. It would take a lot of maturity, support and respect for each others beliefs if they could pull off being parents and staying together.

I'm almost 37 and I have seen a lot of marriages tank. When in part, it's due to differences over child rearing, especially related to religious differences, the children end up thinking they did something wrong or feel forced to take sides. It's selfish of two people to go ahead with a marriage and children with such major  wedge already between them.

Romantic/sexual love, doesn't pay the rent or raise healthy children and keep a marriage and family together. Common goals, dedication & commitment to plans and ideals, mutual support respect and consideration and the ability to flex, bend and compromise does. Those are facets of universal love, not the romantic sexual sort many marry and have children over.

When it comes to marriage and the sort of love that can hold one together, you need to replace the word love with forgiveness. Marriage is a long haul through the day in and out grinds. With out the capacity to be for giving of the other and life itself, to live in a perpetual state of forgiving and allowance of what is, resentments will build and suffocate romantic sexual love.

If a marriage and children were based on romantic/sexual love I say....... :thumbdown:

They made the right choice if they really care about children and each other. Maybe next time they get involved, they won't wait 3 years to figure out how compatible they are as life partners headed in the same direction with the same ideals about raising a family. :thumbup: :heart:

If it means anything, I will be celebrating my 10th wedding aniversary this fall and have an 8 year old. I speak from not just the statistics but from experience too. The amount of giving required to pull off both well is tremendous and why I say being for-giving is the glue that bonds.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/11/05 12:37 PM)


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OfflineIrijes
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4041392 - 04/11/05 04:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

He's a fool and she's better off.

3 years ago I was a faithful church goer and leader in a young adult ministry at church. I had just started premarriage counseling with my boyfriend and thought things were great because I was doing the right thing by God. I was doing His work. Then suddenly the my boyfriend broke up with me because I wasn't "Christian enough". And therefore did not want me to be the mother of his childern. He feared for the spiritual well-being of our unborn children. He said he loved God more than he loved me because that is what a good Christian does. Fooey.

Your friend did the right thing. She is much better off not dealing with him and the Church. People get brainwashed in church. And then they live their lives in constant fear of failure and hell. Thanks to him I left the church. And have never been happier.

They will both be better off for it.


--------------------
"Apparently there is a great discovery or insight which our culture is deliberately designed to supress, distort and ignore. That is that Nature is some kind of minded entity. That Nature is not simply the random flight of atoms through electromagnetic fields. Nature is not the empty, despiritualized lumpen matter that we inherit from modern physics. But it is instead a kind of intelligence, a kind of mind."

-Terence McKenna


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4041527 - 04/11/05 05:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Taking children to church may symbolize a whole lot of things including teaching them traditional Christian values. Values are absolutely core personality variables and her refusal to take children, or go to church may be considered a penetration to her Heart-of-hearts.

The mother of two acquaintances of mine, bewailed the fact that as a 60's hippy-type, she never gave her boys any spiritual training. One is 31, his brother late 20's, and both men show evidence of a lack of Center, inappropriateness with females, unclear ethical-moral issues, and no belief in GOD by any name. There are drug problems as well - excess and impulse control.

Does your friend know what is behind her disagreement? Is it against the values, or the doctrines? Was she emotionally abused by church fanatics? This is what counseling is for.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4041735 - 04/11/05 05:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know about emotional abuse, but i know a good few people who have been sexually abused by priests, but that's a separate matter. The guy is obviously a fool. If God is omnipresent then everywhere is his church. One doesn't need to go to church to define morality or have a spiritual CENTER, because the center is always in our hearts. The core of Christianity isn't to go to church at all, if the man was too blinded bu his tradition to see that, then he is an indoctrinated, spiritually conditioned fool. What an idiot to break up with his partner over such a petty matter. I hope the woman gets over this misfortune fast and finds a more intelligent and more spiritually developed partner to share her love with.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4041952 - 04/11/05 06:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You are assuming (rather emotionally I might add) that the woman has a more mature, internalized spiritual life. I understand and agree with your premises about a certain superfluousness of church with spiritually MATURE individuals, but children require training both doctrinally and morally or they turn out with an undeveloped morality. As they grow and develop, a spiritually mature adult needs to supply the child with increasingly accurate doctrines (your position is a doctrine btw, a Gnostic doctrine incidentally) and higher levels of morality need be inculcated in the child (non-lying, non-harm to others for example along Yogic lines, or basic Ten Commandment ethics as a baseline). More Compassion-based morality requires a certain degree of personality development (post middle school age).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/13/05 07:53 AM)


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4041998 - 04/11/05 06:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Since when did morality become a doctrine? Morality quite simply is not doing anything to that inteintionally causes harm to yourself or others! You can teach about what is harmful and what is not outside of any doctrine or religious influence. How a child develops spiritually does'nt have to be dependant upon any religous dogma or doctrine. Spiritual maturity begins at the age where you can communicate clearly the basics of ethics and morality to your child. There is not predetermined age for how receptive or intelligent he/she might be.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4042025 - 04/11/05 06:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Morality quite simply is not doing anything to that inteintionally causes harm to yourself or others!

Not true. Many wars are deemed moral as are executions. Morality is simply what is acceptable by the society that you belong to.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: Swami]
    #4042036 - 04/11/05 06:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That entirely depends on your definition or morality, if you wish to warp the concept thats your choice. In my opinon no war is morally justifiable as it directly causes harm to other beings.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Something, I dont think I will ever understand.... [Re: egghead1]
    #4042080 - 04/11/05 07:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That is incorrect. Moral development as explored in the work of Jean Piaget, Lawrence Kohlberg, and others shows very specific incremental changes that are clearly separate from one another. Moral development is a subset of other interactive cognitive and affective domains of human development. For a young child the idea of intentionality is completely missing. If asked whether a dot intentionally made with a pen on a linen tablecloth is a better or a worse behavior than a whole bottle of ink accidently spilled on the cloth, a young child will judge the morality based on the size of the spot, not the intention. Compassion does not rule the savage heart of a child who is developing the ego-structure that reaches a crescendo in adolescence. The development of adolescence is characterized by "egocentricity." These things are Very determined by stages of development which translate roughly into years.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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