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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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AI
    #3909013 - 03/12/05 10:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think artifitial intelligence equal to human intelligence is possible? I mean a creative entity aware of itself, with a real live ego capable of questioning or redesigning its own programing?

1. from a materialistic point of view (in case consciousness is a product of brain and chemistry)
2. from a spiritual point of view (in case consciousness is an independent spirit)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: AI [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3909047 - 03/12/05 10:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It may be possible-- even with the current state of technology, but I think it would require soooo much time to design and program something that sophisticated that no one would be willing to pursue it (at least for now).


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: AI [Re: soulmotion]
    #3909105 - 03/12/05 10:20 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm asking because untill we define consciousness, there is still a question of would it be ever possible to make artifitial consciousness at all


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: AI [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3909536 - 03/13/05 12:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

At some future time (50 to 75 years from now)it may be possible...but where does simulation let off and true lifeform behavior begin? How can that point be defined?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: AI [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3909558 - 03/13/05 12:11 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sure it could. But eventually we'd have to program errors into the AI if we want the true "consciousness" such as inoculating it with repressed memories, complexes, fetishes, etc...

I don't believe it's so much a question as if we could... but why would we?

IMO we've made, and scared ourselves into believing that we don't want it through popular culture. (Terminator 1-3, 2001: A Space Odyssey, et etal)

We'd have to get over our own barriers before we are to even think of such.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/13/05 12:26 AM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: AI [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3910548 - 03/13/05 08:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, but if we make artifitial human, that acts like a human, shows emotions, creativity and everything else, and is indistinguishable from a human from outside, would he have consciousness?

I don't mean selfdiagnostics or perception of audio and visual data,
experiences and thoughts are not consciousness. Consciousness is the point of view from wich thoughts are observed.


Sure we can simulate thoughts, but can we simulate the thing that experiences thoughts?

p.s. I have asked this from 2 points of view. All of you just answered without specifying wich point of view you are refering to


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: AI [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3910570 - 03/13/05 08:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In a word 'No'!

Pure Awareness can never be manufactured.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: AI [Re: egghead1]
    #3910599 - 03/13/05 09:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think that the seat of consciousness can be prepared without biology and might be here in 100-500 years.

some things (constructs) will not be the same at all
others will be astonishingly simmilar or the same.

we will learn a lot of humility through the process or it will destroy us, (as will all technology strides); politics will change as human rights goes beyond flesh.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3910619 - 03/13/05 09:09 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Although a brains impulses could be simulated with AI, i do not believe that the pure awareness behind thought processes can never be manufactured by human beings. We cant even describe with words the nature of pure awareness, how can we simulate that with AI? It seems as if its beyond a human beings intellectual comprehension.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (03/13/05 09:35 AM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: AI [Re: egghead1]
    #3910664 - 03/13/05 09:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So then if awareness is not a product of biology or electronics,
that would mean that a brain is like a metal attracting lightning,
a brain has a potential of being inhabited by consciousness.

In that case, making an AI computer would be like building a bird house and hoping someone comes along to live in it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: AI [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3910677 - 03/13/05 09:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If we think of concioussness as the creative force behind the development of a human being from the moment of conception until death, it would be impossible for a bird to fly into the metaphorical cage, as the bird must create the cage by itself of itself as is the nature of concioussness.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: AI [Re: egghead1]
    #3910695 - 03/13/05 10:08 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So then, you think that consciousness does not exist before conception?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: AI [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3910703 - 03/13/05 10:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

On the contrary, concioussness enters at the moment of conception, from then on it is the creative force behind the development of the human being. The body, speech and mind of that being then develops characteristics due to that beings accumilated karma.

When the physical body dies due to the exhaustion of those particular karmic causes, the concioussness leaves the body and after some time enters another womb at the moment of conception, be it an ant, rat, dog, cat, human being, all depending on ones particular state of mind at the time of death and accumilated past actions (karma).

Think of it like this, concioussness is a pure field of awareness, when we commit actions of body, speech and mind, whether they be postive or negative, these actions plant seeds in our pure field, these seeds are carried in the mind until they meet secondary causes and come to fuition, where we experience there effects.

This is what i believe, in very simplistic terms.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (03/13/05 10:30 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: AI [Re: egghead1]
    #3911754 - 03/13/05 04:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

even the engrams of thought and memory cannot be detected, they are totally void to all our attention.

very hard to pin down what cannot be detected, or to separate it from where it takes place.

it would be even harder to achieve an authoritative stance on the "true" consciousness issue without being face to face with an AI on an ongoing basis for several years.

Until acts of compassion between both types illustrate a kind of respect of human spirit (namaste) between the womb human and the artificial tinker guy, the question will be conjecture.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3911789 - 03/13/05 04:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

We as human beings can observe our thoughts, so what does that tell us?

If 'we' are 'observing' our 'thoughts. Think about it!


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: AI [Re: egghead1]
    #3911981 - 03/13/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I am watching myself and I am a thought to my next self
a voidness between the machine and the energy on screen.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3912001 - 03/13/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If we can observe our thoughts, then this tells us without a doubt that we are 'not' our thoughts, simply because 'we' can observe 'them'.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: AI [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3912099 - 03/13/05 05:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Why would we? Because we can't help ourselves...it is our nature. Pushing the boundaries of our reality is unavoidable. It is our sacred duty and job. I firmly believe that true artificial intelligence will have to evolve by learning, after a certain point, in the same way biological organisms do. We can but plant the seeds of true AI and watch it evolve. We will acheive only close simulations until that evolutionary process is allowed to begin. With machines this could be fairly rapid. To truly learn and evolve an organism (or inorganism) must be able to interact with it's environment.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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we are already barely just AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3914501 - 03/14/05 02:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

your logic is very normal but not necessarily correct.

if we are a thinking process which reacts to gestalts of experience (including memory and conjecture) then we will notice the trail of our own passage. It is what we are structured to do. That we notice self in passage does not mean that self is more than mental contents and noticing.


This mirror is something to get closer. it is the meditation on mind itself.
then there is the meditation on voidness.


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: we are already barely just AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3915323 - 03/14/05 07:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Having not read all the posts (I'm at work) I'll throw in my 2 cents in the hope no one has covered it.

Really the question I see is: "can a computer be programmed to EMULATE a human being in all aspects?"

I did read a few of the first posts, and someone pointed out the complexity of a person would be impossible to programme. I'd like to point out the flaw in this argument, and show that the answer to the above question is "YES":

We start out as babies, which are basically bundles of cells without consciousness, and so similar to a computer in that they react to data as it arrives.

As we develop we use our memory, a function computers also have, to learn about our environment, and heuristically change our behaviours to suit, which is also something a computer can do.

So really it is not a matter of creating a complex enough programme, but a programme simple enough to process data like a baby, but also able to learn from it's memories and alter it's behaviours accordingly like we do.

The only advantage a computer may have over a human is the amount of data we can throw at it at once before it overloads (and the amount, and nature, of the starting data).

So I do believe that a conscious computer is wholly possible, because we started as computers and now we are conscious. So why can't that be the case for a computer programme (assuming it fulfills the above requirements)?

Thats my cup of consciousness! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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