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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5116362 - 12/28/05 08:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The locust-explanation is not quite right exactly. The special behavior while they are locusts is not only because of 'group-dynamic'. They undergo a real metamorphosis while changing from grass-hopper to locusts. It starts through rubbing on their legs. That happens, if many grasshoppers are on one place. Something more, I don't remember exactly, maybe smell from the transformation, starts the chain reaction, or was it, that the locusts got more aggressive and active, so the rubbing of the legs increased for each other.
They 'mutate' from almost peaceful insects to little killer-monsters and eating-machines, I thnk to remember even physically.

Else, you are correct :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5116472 - 12/28/05 09:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Consciousness is also an emergent property. It is not at all clear how a single neuron can give rise to consciousness, but a giant collection of them do; just like a locust swarm.
Come on give it a sober thought, if any conclusion can be derived from studies on the mind that is the correspondence between neuronal activity and state of consciousness. That does not necessarily imply a causal link.

To deduce that neural activity gives rise to consciousness is a step that simply does not follow from any of the experiments that have been conducted to day. I?m not saying it might not be so, but there is plenty of space for scepticism as experiments until now are unable to either verify or refuse it.


Emergence, in a nutshell, is the unexpected rise of complex behavior from simple systems.
Seriously, this does not explain away anything. You?re basically saying that somehow ?consciousness? magically appears when the ?complexity level? (whatever that means) becomes high enough (whatever that means)? abstractions over abstractions with no content whatsoever? China is a pretty complex system, is it conscious, or should we wait for an upheaval when there will be an unexpected rise of even more complex behaviour?

Why go for emergence and not for vital-force? Both of them are pretty magical. Yeah, let?s go for emergence, it?s got that modern sketchy scientific-sounding name (edit: no, 'sketchy' is not really what I meant to say. sorry, not my mother language, ignore it and feel free to correct my english any time).

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
* ray checks the time, then turns to Deep Blue *
What?s he talking about Blue?
Deep Blue: E4 to D5


Edited by raytrace (12/28/05 09:53 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Swami]
    #5116488 - 12/28/05 09:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This will be the same for every hurdle and the definition of intelligence will keep changing
Precisely what I?m saying in the post with which I introduced this thread.

protect the collective ego of the human race.
If we don?t defend our collective ego, who?s gonna do it? Let me see...squirrels...no...dolphins...no... oh, I get it! silly me... the machines! yeah, let the machines do it, that will save us the trouble.

Better yet, let?s just dissipate, robots gonna take over anyway. I mean it is bound to happen, man. They are much neater and productive, they can be programmed to never complain, not to mention they are cleaner, they don?t have to take a crap or shoot DNA at each other.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5116499 - 12/28/05 09:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

raytrace:
How do you determine that your dog is intelligent?

Seuss:
Well, she doesn't try to walk through windows or bark at her reflection in the mirror like she did when she was a pup... pretty sure that is a sign of learning, which would imply intelligence...


This is the closest we have gotten so far in trying to identify intelligence, but has anybody actually noticed why?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5116698 - 12/28/05 10:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
* ray checks the time, then turns to Deep Blue *
What?s he talking about Blue?
Deep Blue: E4 to D5




Using your exact reasoning:

[Dip asks raytrace to perform an appendectomy]

How's that? You can't because you haven't been trained to?

[Dip concludes raytrace and Deep Blue are equally intelligent]

Nobody in the AI community has got a clue what "intelligence" is, yet they are trying to build it.

Alright raytrace, enlighten us. What is intelligence?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/29/05 03:58 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5119570 - 12/29/05 06:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it is obvious that I and Swami agree that intelligence is a moving target.

Swami is apparently eager to degrade mankind?s ego in favor of the ego of a few rich and powerful technologists, while I?m here to declare existential pride in being human.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5119575 - 12/29/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Good job evading the question.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5119612 - 12/29/05 06:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You see psyka, it is not my problem defining intelligence. I am pretty confident I can identify it without resorting to stupid definitions. It is only a machine that relies on definitions to decide.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5119622 - 12/29/05 06:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm starting to suspect some of us are machines.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5119636 - 12/29/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ook sak fruji iksa mondoo.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

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Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5119696 - 12/29/05 07:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Kee zetae me nuel bazom


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5120026 - 12/29/05 08:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Aaah, you speak Fokindumass, as well.

I thought I got you there by confusing you with unidentified words. I guess you're right. You do know everything :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5121868 - 12/30/05 12:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Paraphrasing Kasparov after the tournament: "Deep Blue sometimes exhibited a deep intelligence machines are not capable of."

I was present at this speech and actually got to watch a few of the matches between Deep Blue and Kasparov while attending the ACM conference in the mid 90's... After his speech, they were handing out ACM awards, so I decided to bail and go up to my room. When I got to the elevator, Kasparov and his assistant/translator (donno why, he speaks better English than I do...) were there waiting... long story short, I got invited up to his room and got to talk about AI, chess, and computers for about 30 minutes. He is an extremly bright person. His biggest compliment towards Deep Blue was when he described it as "feeling as if I were playing a human opponent rather than a computer".


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5122446 - 12/30/05 02:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I used to write entire poems in Fokindumass for pure pronunciation pleasure. Sometimes I read them to my Natural Language Processors and they don?t get it, they keep coming up with spelling mistakes.

The problem with e.g. an ?intelligent? word processor is that if you fall for the marketing trick and you don?t let go of the belief that it is intelligent, you are seriously damaging yourself.

If you grant authority to a program instead of viewing it as a potential thread to your own intelligence, you?ll settle in the program?s ways, and through psychological feedback you?ll gradually become more of a program, as the program is definitely not going to be more human like.

This applies to all ?intelligent software?. It is self-deception in all its glory!


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5122458 - 12/30/05 02:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

He is an extremly bright person. His biggest compliment towards Deep Blue was when he described it as "feeling as if I were playing a human opponent rather than a computer".

Self-deception. Humans are prone to it. I am, you are, Kasparov is included.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5123491 - 12/30/05 06:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

His biggest compliment towards Deep Blue was when he described it as "feeling as if I were playing a human opponent rather than a computer".

Just 20 years ago, such a machine as Deep Blue was unthinkable; a machine that seems possessed of such intelligence and such a profound intuition for the game of chess that the best human player would accuse its designers of cheating.

Today, those machines are not uncommon.

In 20 more years, when a machine begins writing heart-wrenchingly beautiful music and poetry, the most accomplished human musicians and poets will accuse that machine's creators of cheating, just like Kasparov did... well, at least the closed minded ones will. :shrug:

Eventually, a machine will be designed that will, in every way conceivable, appear as sentient and emotional as a human. Such a machine could be put online, as a Shroomery member, for example, and even after months or years of interacting with the community, no one, not even its closest online friends, will have the slightest clue that it is a machine.

When asked, it will tell you of its feelings, its happiness, its sorrow, even of its existential loneliness. It will joke and understand jokes, write original prose, hold opinions, and it will have irrational religious beliefs.

When that machine is finally exposed by its creators, once again history will repeat itself and the machine will be called a clever illusion, but not really sentient by those without the vision to see forward, just like those same people today accuse Deep Blue of being little more than a souped up Packman game lacking any intelligence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/30/05 07:26 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5123604 - 12/30/05 06:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"and such a profound intuition"

Are you ascribing supernatural or even near human insight to a machine???


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123618 - 12/30/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"When asked, it will tell you of its feelings, its happiness, its sorrow, even of its existential loneliness. It will joke and understand jokes, write original prose, hold opinions, and it will have irrational religious beliefs."

If the machine is a Christian will it go to Heaven when decommissioned?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123649 - 12/30/05 07:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Are you ascribing supernatural or even near human insight to a machine???

Not me, I don't have the profound grasp of chess required to make that statement about Deep Blue. Kasparov (paraphrasing) said it.

However, I do believe that the qualities we call intuition, feeling, human insight... will one day occur in a human-made machine. Sadly, I don't think it will occur in our lifetime, but my educated guess is that it will happen.

My point above being that when it happens, people will just say its a clever simulation, but not really sentient. Nevermind that nobody could be sure the machine's human designers are sentient either.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,679
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5123656 - 12/30/05 07:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I know...I was just yanking your extension cord...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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