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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content.
    #4645057 - 09/11/05 09:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This is an unorganized, uninformed post. Have patience. Though I'll understand if you want to skip to the last paragraph.

Some faith is necessary if you're going to believe that artificial intelligence, or human made intelligence, is going to arise out of computers following the current technological trends.

A friend of mine said "You know why that computer isn't conscious? Because it can't feel it when I do this!" Whereupon he lifted my laptop and smashed it against the floor. Though his actions were not very intelligent, I like this guy and continue to call him a friend.

Which begs the question: What are the basic tenements of consciousness? If there are any? Is there just one, as Descartes wanted to believe and which the modern world wants ostensibly to reject while still believing?

Daniel C. Dennett tells us that Consciousness is not the product of a central editor in the brain (call it the pineal gland, call it what you will), but rather the result of many specialists editing our sensory data. There's not one stream of consciousness but many, and through the cohesion of the brain we are left believing there is a single voice inside our head. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, but still very much the result of the sum of the parts and not the sum itself.

Anyway, it seems, then, that consciousness needs to rely on awareness of sensory data (both internal and external??I'm hungry, need to eat, Watch out! There's a big fucking animal over there!) in order to be. This is a small observation, but necessary for clarity.

It seems evolutionary biology is a vast experiment in negative entropy, resulting in humans capable of more detailed information storage??conscious humans! And now we need to engineer the next step??AI. In order to do this, we need to understand consciousness and transmute this understanding in the form of thinking machines.

Consciousness is reliant on awareness. How do we make these plastics and metals aware? Neural activity is what does it for us. Nerves. I don't know how the hell to make nerves, but somebody does (stem cell research).

One of the inherent qualities of organic conscious matter is that it is composed of self replicating cells that transmit DNA. DNA/RNA seems to be (and this is my big leap of blind faith) the most basic unit of intelligence in the conscious animal that is human. This is where there is an almost complete lack of entropy??pure information! Self replicating and highly efficient. It is this replication that seems to be so important to awareness. It ensures the vitality and thus efficiency of our very nervous cellular network. Give us self replicating, DNA containing cells and hook 'em up to a brain, and we got awareness, and thus consciousness.

And we're back to stage one. How does this consciousness come to be? Shit.

Anyway, we need to come up with artificial, self-replicating building blocks in order to spawn consciousness, and not the other way around. Nanotech. wants to believe that we first find AI and have the AI replicate itself. But we need the replication first.

Oy!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4645083 - 09/11/05 09:40 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"Oy" makes a lot of sense to me, especially when each shakey knot of snot might be a conscious self reflective moebius to some frame of reference in existence


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4645093 - 09/11/05 09:50 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I thought it was a booger, but it snot...  :tongue:


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: Diploid]
    #4645161 - 09/11/05 10:30 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'd prefer if "newbies" responded to this, considering the both of you are probably (apparently) jaded on the topic.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4645183 - 09/11/05 10:40 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:rofl2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: Icelander]
    #4645187 - 09/11/05 10:42 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

it is all I ever think about
except sex


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4645199 - 09/11/05 10:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.pichunter.com/  Let me help you out. :heart:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4645351 - 09/11/05 11:39 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Consciousness = a personified pattern.. (?)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4645599 - 09/11/05 12:52 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i hardly believe consciousness = information.

it's like, normally when we think about awareness, we think about it as an end. sense input enters the eye for example, it excites nerves- and then "awareness" of the sense input arises.

IMO that doesn't explain much.

what is meant by awareness? that i can think about the fact i am seeing, that i can talk about it. that from sensory input arises this concept "i am experiencing"- but what is this concept? this concept is an element in the chain that leads to output. it's what precedes talk "i am experiencing" if there is talk. IOW it is a mechanism.

a computer can emulate this. yet its words "i am experiencing" will ring hollow- we will know it does not have the meaning for the computer that it has for us. what meaning? the meaning that comes from a neural network that arises from vast inter-connectedness (and with it the meaning "awareness" has for humans). i can have a conversation with a human about awareness because both brains traverse a vast (non-symbolic) neural landscape.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4645669 - 09/11/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Good points. I wouldn't say consciousness=information either, but I suspect it is the result of an entirely mechanical process, and that this process can be emulated. Information is simply the building blocks of the universe. A language, if you will. Being a product of this universe, it stands to reason that our mechanical, sentient brains would reflect an incorporation and understanding of this information.

About sense input in the eyes: Isn't it funny that we have a blind spot?


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"A Bad Day for Pants"


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4645703 - 09/11/05 01:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I wouldn't say consciousness=information either, but I suspect it is the result of an entirely mechanical process,




i might go even farther & say consciousness is the mechanical process


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4645705 - 09/11/05 01:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

""I hardly believe consciousness = information.""

consciousness is forming, in its formation... :P

"information" :wink:


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4645824 - 09/11/05 01:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Of course! I guess I contradicted myself, forgetting that consciousness is comprised of many "editors" of sensory input, rather than one "managing editor." Consciousness is not a "thing," but a process.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4646053 - 09/11/05 03:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

you are looking in the right places but you have to look at all of them together working in concert.
the blind spots add up, no need to fill them with importances. much else is happenning all at the same time.



when coming to terms with your terms,
1) you can realize a moment of "input" or electrical activity on the cortical membrane as concsiousness and
2) retention of memories as the fixing into (holographically) stored snapshots of that activity, and
3) recall of memory regenerates the energy patterns from another conscious moment back into the living layer of the moment from the pattern that was latent (and fixed in the same material like a hologram).

all you miss is the mechanism of engrams which is the nearly mechanical (on a cellular synaptic level) and largly the electrical result of interference of spreading electrical waveforms. I do believe multiaxxonned neurons that are triggered by cerebral interference bind several cotemperaneously (in the same moment) active neurons (forming the fixed snapshot right in the "gel" of the cortex).

later stimulation of these multiaxxonned cells will bring up fragments of memories, and a preponderance of simmilarity in the character of an experience will make the associative process work in brilliant flashes of memory.



you can go really far without adding any editors.
but not too much farther without adding timing from the cerebellum. that is the true synthesizer of all time, helping to regenerate rhythms, filters, and co-ordinated routines.


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4646139 - 09/11/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

1) you can realize a moment of "input" or electrical activity on the cortical membrane as concsiousness and




Consciousness itself is a gestalt. If this is so, then there is no particualr point where we can realize something as consciousness. I suspect I'm out of my depth here, however.

Regarding consciousness, would you attribute a higher importance to the cerebellum regulating timing and balance opposed to, say, Broca's area, a broad chunk of the brain where we suspect language is at least partially developed? CAN we attribute a higher significance to any one area, a "binding" area where everything comes together as "consciousness?"


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4646161 - 09/11/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

And by describing in detail the process by which our memories are triggered, do you mean to say conscious awareness is largely holographic memory? I'm not trying to argue here.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4648044 - 09/11/05 11:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

language uses timing - the area that evaluates speech matches some intervals, but phrasing and interval relates to emphasis so mostly timing and listening are a matter of anticipating meanings, and queueing up responses.
uttering speech uses the cerebellum more as we coordinate our voice and mouth to emit practiced speech routines.
remembering and listenning to music can use the cerebellum a lot as it can do more than mp3.

---

our conscious awareness can work without the memory same as it can work without vision or without sound, but it is richest with all the senses working. the area that consciousness is experienced is the surface of cortex where the signals all mix. that is why I say it is like mucous, though snot does not have fortunate electrical input, it probably can support a fine mix of spreading waveforms.


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4648074 - 09/11/05 11:42 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Ah! I apologize for thinking your first post was in jest!

Like mucous, as in a cohesive viscous medium (analogy). Where all locations are attached and aware seemingly instantly, and conductivity is promoted.

Sorry, can't think right now. I'm about to smoke salvia, and try to break through for my first time... I anticipate dissociation.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4648506 - 09/12/05 01:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

tell us how it goes


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Consciousness due to Awareness: AI content. [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4648839 - 09/12/05 02:37 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

you cant make stem cells. life comes from life. no where else.

your post talks about replicating life, but not replicating consciousness. How are you going to recreate something that you cant define?

"Anyway, it seems, then, that consciousness needs to rely on awareness of sensory data (both internal and external??I'm hungry, need to eat, Watch out! There's a big fucking animal over there!) in order to be. This is a small observation, but necessary for clarity."


It doesn't NEED to rely on sensory data, it merely reacts to it. what about dreams?

I cant stand it when people try to define the way consciouness works. It works in different ways at different stages and times.
just because something is true sometimes, it isnt necessarily true all the time.

"Give us self replicating, DNA containing cells and hook 'em up to a brain, and we got awareness, and thus consciousness. "

So take a healthy person. kill them. then try to boot them back up again like a computer.


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