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Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblexnevermore
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Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
Artificial Intelligence and Free Will
    #1080285 - 11/23/02 10:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Do you think a machine with Artificial Intelligence (I hate to use the word android, Star Trek ruined it for me) has free will?


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- xnevermore


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080331 - 11/23/02 11:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm, that kind of depends on how you define free will. My understanding of free will is that you are unconstrained by "god" and have the independent ability to choose your own course of action.

Hmmmm. Ok, I guess by that definition a computer has free will if was programmed to do things somewhat randomly. However, if it were programmed to do things in a predefined way, then it would just be following the predefined set of rules/commands and wouldn't have any free will at all.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineFcuerkt
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080336 - 11/23/02 11:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Such a robot would have free will in the sense that humans do, but Hobbes would say that people don't have free will.


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Invisiblexnevermore
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Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080368 - 11/23/02 11:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This is Encarta's definition:
Free Will, power or ability of the human mind to choose a course of action or make a decision without being subject to restraints imposed by antecedent causes, by necessity, or by divine predetermination. A completely freewill act is itself a cause and not an effect


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- xnevermore


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080370 - 11/23/02 11:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So free-will applies only to humans?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineFcuerkt
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Murex]
    #1080373 - 11/23/02 11:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Classically it does. Catholicism defines humans as having both a body AND free will.


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Invisiblexnevermore
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Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Murex]
    #1080384 - 11/23/02 11:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So free-will applies only to humans?
Does it? I'm asking for your opinion. How are we any different from the machine I was referring to in my original post?


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- xnevermore


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080385 - 11/23/02 11:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In that case, I think my first reply is still valid, except for the part of the definition that says "HUMAN MIND".


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisiblexnevermore
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Registered: 03/10/02
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080399 - 11/23/02 11:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So you're saying that if a computer is programmed to do things randomly (I don't think this is completely possible), then it has free will?


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- xnevermore


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080415 - 11/23/02 11:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly. If it didn't do things randomly, then it would just be following some sort of preprogrammed algorithm, which certainly doesn't give it free will. And computers DO have the ability to do things randomly. They have a random number generator which can be used to determine what actions they will take.

I think maybe your question was meant to be a little deeper, like "Can computers be aware of their own existance?" maybe?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisiblexnevermore
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080432 - 11/24/02 12:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A computer is unable to generate a truly random number. There is a formula behind a random number generator, only it's so complex that it "seems" random.


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- xnevermore


Edited by xnevermore (11/24/02 12:03 AM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080445 - 11/24/02 12:08 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, this site says it can be done:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question697.htm

It says you could place a piece of radioactive material in front of a Geiger counter and link the Geiger counter to a computer (android). Since radioactive decay is random, the Geiger counter would create truly random numbers.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisiblexnevermore
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Registered: 03/10/02
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Loc: The Twilight Zone
Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080464 - 11/24/02 12:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm... well I doubt radioactive decay is truly random, either. I think there is a pattern that we have yet to find. I don't really believe in randomness, I think everything has a pattern.

But, tell me, if randomness determines free will, how are we random? Aren't we just a complex system that creates the illusion of randomness (and free will)?

EDIT: btw, sorry if some of this doesn't make sense... I'm a bit stoned.  :smile:


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- xnevermore


Edited by xnevermore (11/24/02 12:27 AM)


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080481 - 11/24/02 12:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But, tell me, if randomness determines free will, how are we random? Aren't we just a complex system that's creates the illusion of randomness (and free will)?

Hard to say. That seems too hard to proove.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1080488 - 11/24/02 12:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I think our brains are so tremendously complex, that there would be no possible way to predict how our brains will form and how they will think. A random input from the environment alone could be enough to alter our thought patterns. Hence I would consider the brain to be "random" (not predictable).


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Anonymous

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1080585 - 11/24/02 12:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Welcome to the Shroomery and S&P&S! :smile:

What do you know of Hobbes?

Cheers, 


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OfflineFcuerkt
insane visionary

Registered: 11/11/02
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: ]
    #1080736 - 11/24/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I know he rocks the casbah.


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Anonymous

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1080742 - 11/24/02 02:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That's not exactly what I was thinking.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080839 - 11/24/02 03:14 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

yeah all random means is unable to be predicted.

I used to say computers can't make random numbers, but then I looked up random.... yes its all pre-programmed, but its still not predictable.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
    #1081167 - 11/24/02 06:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Free will is not randomness. Free will is making conscious choices, not random choices. Computers today are not really conscious, and I doubt they will every be without a major paradigm shift (purely theoretically speaking, I cannot imagine what that would be). Consciousness is a mystery, but most hardcore scientists and "skeptics" are eager to believe that consciousness is just calculations! Man! Is that not superstition?? Who is the skeptic here?


Edited by raytrace (11/24/02 06:29 AM)


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