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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: raytrace]
#1081215 - 11/24/02 05:13 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Free will is not randomness. Free will is making conscious choices, not random choices.
Correct. I am surprised it took so many posts before someone pointed that out.
Back to the original question -- it depends on what you define as "Artificial Intelligence". If the question had been "Do you think an Artificial CONSCIOUSNESS would have free will" I would answer yes.
pinky
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xnevermore
? Ω?
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Strumpling]
#1081371 - 11/24/02 09:31 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah all random means is unable to be predicted.
ran?dom Audio pronunciation of randomness ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rndm) adj.
1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance. 2. Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution. 3. Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.
-------------------- - xnevermore
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xnevermore
? Ω?
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Phred]
#1081403 - 11/24/02 09:56 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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So you say that conciousness determines free will?
Well, lets say our lives have been predetermined (by God, lets say). Conciousness still exists, but free will does not.
-------------------- - xnevermore
Edited by xnevermore (11/24/02 09:58 AM)
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GoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK
Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Phred]
#1081697 - 11/24/02 12:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Free will is not randomness. Free will is making conscious choices, not random choices." Correct. I am surprised it took so many posts before someone pointed that out.
I also agree with that. Hence my earlier statement "I think maybe your question was meant to be a little deeper, like "Can computers be aware of their own existance?""
But even a computer did have a consciousness, I would still argue that if it behaved in a predictable, pre-programed way, then it would not have free will.
-------------------- Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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xnevermore
? Ω?
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: GoBlue!]
#1081793 - 11/24/02 01:10 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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But even a computer did have a consciousness, I would still argue that if it behaved in a predictable, pre-programed way, then it would not have free will. What if it weren't predictable, but still "pre-programmed"?
-------------------- - xnevermore
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 3 days
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: GoBlue!]
#1081794 - 11/24/02 01:10 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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It should be noted that one thing computers cannot do is generate random numbers. They may seem to, but it's an illusion.
They use the time on the computer's clock as a seed, run it through an algorithm, and get a seemingly random string of numbers.
A "random number" is a mathematical impossibility.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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xnevermore
? Ω?
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Phluck]
#1081808 - 11/24/02 01:19 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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You haven't read the entire thread, have you?
-------------------- - xnevermore
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 3 days
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: raytrace]
#1081823 - 11/24/02 01:26 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Free will is making conscious choices, not random choices."
What is the difference between a concious choice, and a calculated choice?
As I see it, there are two ways to make a decision. 1. You think it through, and make a choice based on what results you believe will best suit your needs. 2. You randomly choose.
Well, "random" doesn't really seem to be mathematically possible, so this leaves us with the first one as the most likely way that we make choices.
"Consciousness is a mystery, but most hardcore scientists and "skeptics" are eager to believe that consciousness is just calculations! Man! Is that not superstition??"
"hardcore scientists and 'sketpics'", as you put it, will certainly agree with you when you say that conciousness is a mystery. They will add, however, that there is a good possibility that it is an elaborate, but logical, machine. This theory comes from oberserving the brain. With an MRI scanner, for instance, you can actually see certain parts of the brain become more active when a person is told to think of the colour red.
Does this mean that the brain and conciousness are just a complex computer? No, not really. It isn't proof of anything. Any "hardcore scientist" certainly has a good enough grasp of science to tell you this. It is the only theory we have that offers any explanations. "It's a mystery!" is not a valid alternative.
Two hundred years ago, you might have been saying "Why do you think that the moon is a rock in the sky?! Can't you just leave the mystery in these things! There are some things that we just aren't meant to understand!"
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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xnevermore
? Ω?
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Phluck]
#1081865 - 11/24/02 01:48 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Good post.
If humans are just elaborate machines, can free will really exist?
-------------------- - xnevermore
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raytrace
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Phred]
#1082068 - 11/24/02 03:38 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Artificial CONSCIOUSNESS you-can't-get-meee I'm-syntax-freee
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: raytrace]
#1082187 - 11/24/02 04:44 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm a robot.
-------------------- What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems? What if all the world you think you know, Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection, Is it all you want it to be?
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Fcuerkt
insane visionary
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 371
Loc: the center of a xenon ato...
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Murex]
#1082490 - 11/24/02 07:38 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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"If humans are just elaborate machines, can free will really exist?"
No. Is that too hard to reconcile w/ your belief system?
I am also a robot
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ShpongleIsGod
Seeker
Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 15
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Fcuerkt]
#1082563 - 11/24/02 08:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Has anyone here read "A New Kind of Science" by stephen wolfram? I bought the book but havent read it yet it is huge. Bt it deals with using computer programs to explain the "randomness" behind physical sytems, and the interplay between free will and determinism. Thats what it says on the inside cover anyways. If anyone has read it, what are your thoughts on it?
-------------------- And we can take this huge universe and put it inside a very tiny head; you fold it. -Shpongle
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ShpongleIsGod
Seeker
Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 15
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Fcuerkt]
#1082565 - 11/24/02 08:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Has anyone here read "A New Kind of Science" by stephen wolfram? I bought the book but havent read it yet it is huge. But it deals with using computer programs to explain the "randomness" behind physical sytems, and the interplay between free will and determinism. Thats what it says on the inside cover anyways. If anyone has read it, what are your thoughts on it?
-------------------- And we can take this huge universe and put it inside a very tiny head; you fold it. -Shpongle
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Fcuerkt
insane visionary
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 371
Loc: the center of a xenon ato...
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will
#1082608 - 11/24/02 08:34 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well then you might like Hobbes, he's all about not believing in things w/out reason. Basically, why believe in a soul or free will when it can be reduced to material bodies interacting? But materialism isn't for everybody, so I'll just shut up.
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xnevermore
? Ω?
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Fcuerkt]
#1082618 - 11/24/02 08:40 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, probably. I actually misread your last post. That was the point I was trying to make with this thread: if machines cannot have free will, and we are merely machines, then we cannot have free will. Free will is an illusion. That's a pretty depressing belief, but I guess feeling like I have free will is good enough for me.
-------------------- - xnevermore
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xnevermore
? Ω?
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: Fcuerkt]
#1082624 - 11/24/02 08:42 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think I'm gonna read up on Hobbes right now in my book, A History of Western Philosophy by Bertrand Russell.
-------------------- - xnevermore
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Anonymous
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
#1083066 - 11/24/02 10:47 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Now there's a dynamic duo if I ever heard of one.
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David_Scape
Anti Genius
Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: xnevermore]
#1083133 - 11/24/02 11:06 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wonder how the illusion is created. Would the trick be chemical or cognitive?
Edited by David_Scape (11/24/02 11:07 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Artificial Intelligence and Free Will [Re: David_Scape]
#1083198 - 11/24/02 11:22 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Scientific determinism has been ruled out as an reasonable explanation for the nature of man.
[Where is Sclorch when you need him?]
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