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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
"Artificial Intelligence"
    #5032699 - 12/08/05 06:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nobody in the AI community has got a clue what "intelligence" is, yet they are trying to build it. :shake:

They even claim they are getting closer day by day! When you're there, let me know alright?


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OfflineVegas
Complicated.
Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 34
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5032947 - 12/08/05 08:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I honestly doubt they'll ever build anything that has actual intelligence. Anything they build that they claim has artificial intelligence would be simply programmed (or what have you) with the given information and knowledge that whoever created it wishes it to have. The problem is, I honestly don't see a machine being able to think and make rational decisions by itself.




Originally I had something really clever to say... but after the first sentence I just kinda lost my train of thought and rambled.


--------------------
"I smoke chronic, pop speed, get drunk, throw up, wake up in the dump, with some of my lunch
covering the front of my sweater, smellin of skunk, deader than fuck and still ever ready for drugs
I won't hesitate to take em, I hate my life, I won't ever make you wait, shit I'll take my pipe
and load it up, with the ripest nugs I sight and puff 'till the night turns to light, I'm the type
to steal prescriptions just to feel so twisted, I can't feel my skin tissue or limbs, witness
my vision's when it's shifting, bless me quick or catch my head spinning like the Exorcist

No, I don't ever wanna come down from this, escape is everything I ever wanted.
This place is where I go to get away from all of this, take me home again.
"


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5032962 - 12/08/05 08:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Nobody in the AI community has got a clue what "intelligence" is, yet they are trying to build it.

And you would be an expert that is qualified to judge the AI community, because... ?

There is a large difference between intelligence and cognition.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
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Posts: 1,511
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5032963 - 12/08/05 08:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What is intelligence?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: dorkus]
    #5032990 - 12/08/05 08:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The ability to learn and apply knowledge


--------------------


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OfflineVegas
Complicated.
Registered: 12/07/05
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Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Shroomism]
    #5033004 - 12/08/05 08:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
The ability to learn and apply knowledge




Applying knowledge, possibly. But I doubt a machine will be able to actually learn as we do. At least not for a long while.


--------------------
"I smoke chronic, pop speed, get drunk, throw up, wake up in the dump, with some of my lunch
covering the front of my sweater, smellin of skunk, deader than fuck and still ever ready for drugs
I won't hesitate to take em, I hate my life, I won't ever make you wait, shit I'll take my pipe
and load it up, with the ripest nugs I sight and puff 'till the night turns to light, I'm the type
to steal prescriptions just to feel so twisted, I can't feel my skin tissue or limbs, witness
my vision's when it's shifting, bless me quick or catch my head spinning like the Exorcist

No, I don't ever wanna come down from this, escape is everything I ever wanted.
This place is where I go to get away from all of this, take me home again.
"


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: dorkus]
    #5033020 - 12/08/05 08:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What is intelligence?
To be honest, I don?t know. I guess we have to come to a mutual agreement on what it is, but that would only make sense if we need to make a point besides defining it.


Edited by raytrace (12/08/05 09:17 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5033022 - 12/08/05 09:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Lets set aside my qualifications, and lets stick to the subject.

Seuss, what is the point of building AI?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Vegas]
    #5033027 - 12/08/05 09:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> But I doubt a machine will be able to actually learn as we do.

Who said anything about "as we do". I have many computer games that I have written that learn how to play the game and eventually learn how to play well enough that I can no longer beat the computer. Although the programs do not have any cognitive abilities, they certainly have learned, going from seemingly random moves to a very strong player without any human direction or intervention.

Based upon Shroomism's definition of intelligence, the ability to learn and apply knowledge, these programs that I have written are certainly intelligent.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5033042 - 12/08/05 09:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Seuss, what is the point of building AI?


Many commercial and industrial uses abound.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5033094 - 12/08/05 09:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, fair enough, but in most if not all of these cases the "artificial intelligence" label can be dropped. they are just some cool algorithms. some inspired by biological organisms, some not.

what i'm interested here though, is the so called "strong AI". that machines can be indistinguishable from humans.


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InvisibleDre
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5033233 - 12/08/05 10:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There is never ever going to be a program that will be intelligent like man kind. There (probably) will be programs that are indistinguishable from real humans. But that will only be achieved by statistical analysis

The problem with AI is that you need to define intelligence. And make it AI intelligent enough to figure out that 'it' excites and it doesn't know everything there is to know. And thus motivating it to learn. If the program is not motivated to learn something but it has a hard coded learning algorithm it is not relay intelligent at all. You would end up with something like google-bot or some other web crawling program.

To seuss, if you write a piece of code that will play a game and will eventually become better then a human. You have actually written a program to analyze statistics, so your program is not really intelligent (no flame intended) it is just really good at processing data and statistic analysis of your game. Of course your program will become pretty good at the game it was designed for but it won't be able to play another game because it is simply not made to do that.

A real challenge would be; explaining a game (in plain English) and then letting the AI figure out how to play it.

PS OT: How can i join the shoomery folding at home team  :tongue2:


--------------------
Dre - A source of incoherent bullshit since 1986


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Dre]
    #5033522 - 12/08/05 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> You have actually written a program to analyze statistics

Actually, the work I do is with simulated evolution. The programs evolve to a better solution using directed selection. I can honestly argue both ways, the programs are learning and they are not, depending upon the definition of learning or intelligence.

> And thus motivating it to learn.

Again, we are confusing cognition with intelligence, two very different things.

> Of course your program will become pretty good at the game it was designed for but it won't be able to play another game because it is simply not made to do that.

This was the thesis of my high school science fair project, back in the mid 80's. I wrote a neural network that learned to play tic-tac-toe. I then took the same network and applied it to another simple game (3d tic-tac-toe). Although the network had to learn the new game, the convergence to a solution was much faster than a network that had not previously learned from 1d tic-tac-toe.

> A real challenge would be; explaining a game (in plain English) and then letting the AI figure out how to play it.

This is pretty much how my simulated evolution games work. I define the rules of the game using a program rather than plain English. The organisms have no idea what the rules of the game are to begin with... they simply make random moves. If a move they choose isn't valid, they immediate loose. I never actually program the organisms with the rules of the game... they figure that out on their own.

> what i'm interested here though, is the so called "strong AI". that machines can be indistinguishable from humans.

I am not sure that such a beast will ever happen... it may, but it may not. The problem of cognition is much more difficult than the problem of intelligence. Animals are intelligent, but very few species are actually aware of themselves.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5033694 - 12/08/05 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
yeah, fair enough, but in most if not all of these cases the "artificial intelligence" label can be dropped. they are just some cool algorithms. some inspired by biological organisms, some not.

what i'm interested here though, is the so called "strong AI". that machines can be indistinguishable from humans.




Seuss has said this before, and I happen to like how he put it so:

Forget about using the term "AI" to describe what I think you are trying to describe - a machine that can "think" and "act" like a human mind does.

Instead we will call that "Artificial Sentience".

Because AI itself is already in production. We already have, as Seuss pointed out, computers that can learn and then apply that learned knowledge in future situations. This kind of intelligence research has made some great steps forward with things like intelligent-agents and neural-networks.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5033706 - 12/08/05 01:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I am not sure that such a beast will ever happen... it may, but it may not. The problem of cognition is much more difficult than the problem of intelligence. Animals are intelligent, but very few species are actually aware of themselves.

This brings up a good point, the possibility that we could invent "artificial cognition"....but even if we did we may not recognize it as human cognition. Perhaps our idea of "sentience" is so strictly defined by what we see in ourselves that we really can have no concept of what "sentience" in a machine would be until it has already happened.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: trendal]
    #5033753 - 12/08/05 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How does humans use intelligence? Aren't we feeding new variables (experiences) into an already existent (from previous feeding - meaning lived life) sum?

Where does a truly original thought come from?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: dorkus]
    #5033772 - 12/08/05 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Aren't we feeding new variables (experiences) into an already existent (from previous feeding - meaning lived life) sum?

What about infants? They don't really have much life experience to feed any new variables into, do they?

It has to begin somewhere, at some time.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Dre]
    #5033804 - 12/08/05 01:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What is intelligence?

I like this one: "a very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings?"catching on", "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do."
- http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html

Quote:

There is never ever going to be a program that will be intelligent like man kind.




From my materialistic point of view, the human brain is a very complex machine/computer. I believe that we can, in theory, recreate or simulate a human brain. This synthetic brain will also have consciousness.

Quote:


PS OT: How can i join the shoomery folding at home team




http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/24037


Quote:

Actually, the work I do is with simulated evolution. The programs evolve to a better solution using directed selection. I can honestly argue both ways, the programs are learning and they are not, depending upon the definition of learning or intelligence.





Suess, that's really interesting. I'm not a programmer, but I did follow a decent Java course for my study, is there any way I could understand the basics of the code of a simple evolution program you wrote? I would love to read and understand it but I don't know if that's possible.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5033817 - 12/08/05 01:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

the ability to learn/save...

I could make it within the week, given the right fonding..

'they' are getting close to it though, and I tell 'them' in dream-scape, each and every night & day.. so just be patient.. :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineVegas
Complicated.
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5034167 - 12/08/05 03:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> But I doubt a machine will be able to actually learn as we do.

Who said anything about "as we do".  I have many computer games that I have written that learn how to play the game and eventually learn how to play well enough that I can no longer beat the computer.  Although the programs do not have any cognitive abilities, they certainly have learned, going from seemingly random moves to a very strong player without any human direction or intervention.




I've toyed around with a few games, mainly just Counter-Strike mods, but the AI of the bots and such are nothing more than way-points. Attacking a stronger player is simple, can easily figure out who the stronger player is in a scenario given to statistics.

Note, that's only with my limited experience, but I've tried reading and reading for any AI improvements with video games. If I'm mistaken, fill me in :laugh:


--------------------
"I smoke chronic, pop speed, get drunk, throw up, wake up in the dump, with some of my lunch
covering the front of my sweater, smellin of skunk, deader than fuck and still ever ready for drugs
I won't hesitate to take em, I hate my life, I won't ever make you wait, shit I'll take my pipe
and load it up, with the ripest nugs I sight and puff 'till the night turns to light, I'm the type
to steal prescriptions just to feel so twisted, I can't feel my skin tissue or limbs, witness
my vision's when it's shifting, bless me quick or catch my head spinning like the Exorcist

No, I don't ever wanna come down from this, escape is everything I ever wanted.
This place is where I go to get away from all of this, take me home again.
"


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Vegas]
    #5034178 - 12/08/05 03:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You can't seriously look at video games to see the most cutting-edge AI around :smirk:

Video games have notoriously shitty AI in them, and although it has gotten better over the years...it's nowhere near to what it could be right now.

Video game designers are more interested in having their cut-scenes and graphics look really nice than they are about AI in the game.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineVegas
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: trendal]
    #5034206 - 12/08/05 03:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
You can't seriously look at video games to see the most cutting-edge AI around :smirk:

Video games have notoriously shitty AI in them, and although it has gotten better over the years...it's nowhere near to what it could be right now.

Video game designers are more interested in having their cut-scenes and graphics look really nice than they are about AI in the game.




Haha, yea, I kno. Was just responding to what was said basically. I need to read on AI more.


--------------------
"I smoke chronic, pop speed, get drunk, throw up, wake up in the dump, with some of my lunch
covering the front of my sweater, smellin of skunk, deader than fuck and still ever ready for drugs
I won't hesitate to take em, I hate my life, I won't ever make you wait, shit I'll take my pipe
and load it up, with the ripest nugs I sight and puff 'till the night turns to light, I'm the type
to steal prescriptions just to feel so twisted, I can't feel my skin tissue or limbs, witness
my vision's when it's shifting, bless me quick or catch my head spinning like the Exorcist

No, I don't ever wanna come down from this, escape is everything I ever wanted.
This place is where I go to get away from all of this, take me home again.
"


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Annom]
    #5034212 - 12/08/05 03:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
the human brain is a very complex machine/computer




I agree, but one of the main differences between an organic brain and a computer is that computer code operates using functions, while neurons can have multiple outputs.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Vegas]
    #5034237 - 12/08/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Intelligence is intelligence. "Artificial" intelligence isn't artificial in that it is functional. It is functioning intelligence. The fact that we have consciously created the mechanisms and their subsequent limitations that bring forth and bound the limited sense of intelligence, it would seem to me that it is still intelligence and that it fufills its purpose as intelligence.

Unless I am not fully understood as to the specific meaning represented by the term "intelligence"..... Nope, I think I got it. The means by which to aquire and effectively apply knowledge? Information, knowledge, itself? :smirk:

Reading through the thread, though, it seems the main issue that this discussion relies on is the considerable distinctions between intelligence and cognition. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5034524 - 12/08/05 05:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

so... the point your trying to make is that they wont succeed at creating artificial intelligence?


:tongue:


k bye.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5034801 - 12/08/05 06:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

but we will make more self awareness directed towards the improvement of experiencing.
call it artificial if you like
mine already is


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5034811 - 12/08/05 06:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, so what I'm getting as the gist of this thread:

1) We have no proper definition for "artificial intelligence"
2) ...but whatever it is, it won't ever be made.

Which leads me to the following conclusion:

Raytrace hasn't got a clue what "artificial intelligence" is, yet he is trying to deny the possibility of it ever being built.  :smirk:


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Offlinerwilber
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: GulGen]
    #5035191 - 12/08/05 07:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i work a afb in sacramento that was front runner in bs.
ai first spotlight to us from ms in the from of a
10 page insert they bundled with c. we xerox the cover page
and write some bullshit, we need more money from general.

well the big guy was really impressed w/ its version 99 thousand
sofware up grade to the f-111 and the af figured that thats
waht me must be takling abt too. little did he know...

we sold him a bill of goods that ms would be proud of


--------------------


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: rwilber]
    #5035318 - 12/08/05 08:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

^ its a whole new breed of crazy ^


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: trendal]
    #5037871 - 12/09/05 07:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> What about infants?

I read a very cool paper last night about prenatal learning in the visual cortex. The basic idea is that a fetus spends most of its time in REM. They think that during this time, the developing brain is actually learning based on the brain waves generated during REM.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5037972 - 12/09/05 08:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss, that's really interesting. I'm not a programmer, but I did follow a decent Java course for my study, is there any way I could understand the basics of the code of a simple evolution program you wrote?




It has been a while since I have worked with this, but I will try to find my old code. The games I mostly work with are tic-tact-toe, connect four, and Othello. Tic-tac-toe is a very simple game and takes very little time for a solution to evolve. This is a good way to test that a network is learning properly. Connect four builds upon tic-tac-toe increasing the board size and the goal size. Othello builds again, increasing the complexity of the game yet again.

The heart of the code I wrote is based around a self-organizing map (SOM). This is a form of unsupervised learning. For example, it takes a newborn baby around a week to learn how to focus it's eyes. The newborn learns this on it's own, not with somebody teaching it how to focus. A self-organizing map works the same way. It learns to distinguish patterns based upon the patterns that it has previously seen.

The SOM is implemented with a feed-forward neural network. The network shape is defined by an artificial DNA... just a long string of numerical values. Rather than try to encode all the weights and connections, I encode functions that will build the neurons and connections. When the DNA is expressed, a finite set of SOMs are grown. The outputs from one SOM become the inputs to others. Each neuron decides who it gets input from, based upon the DNA coded function for that neuron. Weights are initially set to -1 or 1 (inhibit or excite) and are normalized to unity. Again, and DNA coded function determines the connections and the initial weight (-1 or 1).

A population of organisms is created. Initially, the population watches a computer program play the game. During this time, the SOM is learning the pattern (rules) of the game and play. As the organism ages, it is eventually allowed to compete in the games. As the organisms play each other, their fitness is recorded based upon how well they play. The fitness function is also scaled by the age of the organism. The allows young organisms to survive before they learn how to play and rewards older organisms that have not been killed off as well.

After some set length of time (number of games played), the population is culled by fitness. The least fit of the population are deleted, and the remaining population is allowed to 'mate' until the population size is back to normal. I have used many different mating rules. My current implementation actually mixes up several different strategies... some blocks of DNA are averaged together, other times the section from only one parent is used, other times random crosses occur, and yet other times random mutations are inserted.

I tend to run several populations simultaneously. Organisms from each distinct population are crossed from time to time to help prevent local minimums and help maintain genetic diversity. Children in the population are never culled, allowing a mutation to find its way into the population even if the overall fitness of that mutated organism is poor.

Inputs and outputs into the system are treated as bits in a number. For an Othello board, I have 128 inputs (two neurons for each tile). A value of 00 or 11 means the tile is empty. A value of 10 means the tile is white while a value of 01 means the tile is black. The output for Othello is a 64-bit value with each bit representing a single tile on the board. The bit with the highest value (the most excited neuron) is the play that is made. (I use the word 'bit' loosely here... implementation is a floating point number normalized between -1 and 1...) Sometimes I simply ignore (mask out) all the bits that are not valid moves while other times I end the game as a loss (depending upon the experiment that I am doing).

I also use a decaying timeout after a neuron fires limiting the fire rate of the neuron. Again, this is determined on a neuron by neuron basis by a DNA defined function. Once a neuron fires, it will not be able to fire again for so many 'clock' ticks. This allows the system to create state machines and timers more easily.

I also assign inputs to a timer that represents the percentage of time left in game play. An output neuron acts to signal that the current state of the network should be used for a move. Rather than cycle the network for a fixed number of clock tics, I allow the network to think as long as it likes for each move. The organism must learn to manage it's own game time.

Another adaptation I have made on the above is using the network as a board evaluation function only within an AB-minimax search tree. In these cases, I use many multiple networks. One as the evaluation function, one as a predictor for the opponent's move, one to sort the moves at each node from most likely best move to least likely best move, one to decide time management, etc.

The networks are constantly learning while they play through the self-organizing model. This means that the organism (usually) gets better at the game as it lives longer. However, this learned knowledge is not passed on to the children. Only the design of the network is passed, not what the network learned. This tends to produce organisms that can quickly learn how to play the game rather than organisms that are born with instinctual knowledge of how to play the game. The entire population of organisms that are not currently playing 'watch' the organisms that are playing. During this time, the watching organisms are still modifying their networks, but their fitness functions are not altered.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5038099 - 12/09/05 09:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5038906 - 12/09/05 12:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> What about infants?

I read a very cool paper last night about prenatal learning in the visual cortex.    The basic idea is that a fetus spends most of its time in REM.  They think that during this time, the developing brain is actually learning based on the brain waves generated during REM.




Interesting! Sort of like the POST on a pc, I guess :wink:

I had a discussion with Neuro on IRC a month or two ago, were we compared the human brain to a modern computer.

I suggested that all humans will have something equivalent to a ROM BIOS in their brains - certain sets of instructions that are hard-wired into the human brain right from birth. The "OS" then would be continuously programmed during life as new experience/information comes in - it would be the person's personality. You can always change your OS...but you generally can't change your BIOS without getting a whole new system :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5043027 - 12/10/05 08:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for your reply Seuss!

I had to read it twice, but I get the basic idea of the program.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Annom]
    #5043072 - 12/10/05 08:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I once created an attitude media processor
sound in >>
record & analyse
speech recognizer >>
attitude context processor with error recovery reinterpreter
auto selection of conditioned branches >>
expression output by multimedia like max headroom

each expression comes with it's own set of context recognition and error processing branches.

if speech has low recognition in the current attitude block,
previous blocks are used to find a better branch.


essentially it could hold pretty realistic conversations with shifts and previous context reversals.
but it was just basic attitude expresssion and response, needs further development.

wehn it becomes fully conditionalble (learning) has attitude, and can shift mental state (emotions/getting stoned) there will be no difference except from us in body type.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5043112 - 12/10/05 09:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Then you wil be the first person, to successfully create a computer that actually passes the Turing test. That would certainly be an historic achievement indeed. :smirk:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (12/10/05 10:28 AM)


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Sinbad]
    #5043178 - 12/10/05 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it will happen sooner than expected.

New brain scanning results indicate the brain is a complex parallel processor which is malleable and shaped from thoughts interacting with expirences.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5043230 - 12/10/05 10:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have any sources for these new brain scanning results? As i have been taught, by my university lecturer's, that all of these ideas are just pure speculation that have yet to be thoroughly tested to the point of being scientifically proven.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (12/10/05 01:34 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Annom]
    #5097222 - 12/23/05 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

From my materialistic point of view, the human brain is a very complex machine/computer
What do you mean from your ?point of view?? Is the synthetic brain going to be conscious only for you and those adhering to your ?point of view??

Is the human brain objectively a computer, or not?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5097223 - 12/23/05 10:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it will happen sooner than expected.
Why is that so? Please provide us with something to chew.

And it is expected when exactly?


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OfflineEnergi
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5097282 - 12/23/05 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If our bodies are basically machines or vessals and we reached conciouness, why cant man-made machines reach this conciounsess?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Energi]
    #5097290 - 12/23/05 11:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

they surely could
just pay attention
to what you are
and how you are
it is not that complicated


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5097323 - 12/23/05 11:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
From my materialistic point of view, the human brain is a very complex machine/computer
What do you mean from your ?point of view?? Is the synthetic brain going to be conscious only for you and those adhering to your ?point of view??




No, but I think that people who believe in dualism will use the argument that the mind and consciousness is not a result of a (brain)computer but something supernatural/not-material. My idea that the brain is a complex computer and that a synthetic brain will also be conscious is a direct result of my materialistic view. I hoped to prevent the discussion going about dualism vs materialism by using "from my materialistic point of view".

Quote:

Is the human brain objectively a computer, or not?




Yes, but I think people with a dualistic view will not agree. They are wrong of course  :wink:


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Energi]
    #5097344 - 12/23/05 12:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Energi said:
If our bodies are basically machines or vessals and we reached conciouness, why cant man-made machines reach this conciounsess?




Our machines and microprocessors are not as complex as the human brain or even the brain of a small mammal.

I'm don't have the knowledge about computers to make a good comparison, if possible at all, but it would be interesting to compare our computers with the nerve system of insects. We have no idea what kind of consciousness an insect has, but we also have no idea what kind of consciousness a normal computer has. We even don't know what consciousness exactly is, but it somehow is a result of a very complex "computer". I see no reason to think that we could never create a machine/computer that has a form of consciousness.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Annom]
    #5097383 - 12/23/05 12:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Very eerie thought that we would probably create a being in our liking, much like "gods", that would turn out and kill the human population.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Energi]
    #5098166 - 12/23/05 04:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:rofl2: :thumbup:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Energi]
    #5100905 - 12/24/05 09:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Energi said:
Very eerie thought that we would probably create a being in our liking, much like "gods", that would turn out and kill the human population.




Yeah, or a being that likes to do what we hate to do. We have more free time and they do the shitty work for us!


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Annom]
    #5102080 - 12/24/05 04:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

so, basically you want to get lazy.
that's the kind of thinking that leads to AI.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5102636 - 12/24/05 07:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I want to have the option to get lazy if I want :smile:


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Annom]
    #5102760 - 12/24/05 08:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

These new dual-core processors are the shiz-nit for handling multi-threaded applications.

I cant want for the quadra-cores, then the hexa-cores in a few years, and I cant wait to expirence the software that integrates this technology.

What does that have to do with AI? Absolutely everything.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5102852 - 12/24/05 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry no refererence, but there was a machine about 15 years ago that had 64,000 simple processors in it. Was going to be the next supercomputer. It never took off.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Annom]
    #5103096 - 12/24/05 10:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry to disappoint you buddy but you simply don?t have that option. Nothing comes for free. It just ain?t the way things work. Careful how much you are willing to pay.

AI is fantasy and belongs to science fiction.

Just the idea that one day I will need to deal with empty garbage cans and treat ?em like human beings chills my blood. I?m telling you, it?s seriously frightening. Yet? this is where your materialistic ?point of view? is leading us.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5104046 - 12/25/05 03:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
Just the idea that one day I will need to deal with empty garbage cans and treat ?em like human beings chills my blood. I?m telling you, it?s seriously frightening. Yet? this is where your materialistic ?point of view? is leading us.




Filthly biped chauvinist pig.
Us materialists worship every form of non-living trash containing object. I, and nearly everyone I know, already treat garbage cans with the utmost respect. Get with the times, plug into the real materialist agenda, its necessary for us to extend suffrage to every object!

Really now... trash cans? What are joo talking about!?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5104077 - 12/25/05 04:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

hey, if you wanna go get laid with a garbage can... go ahead, noone is gonna stop you

note: said "treat 'em like humans" not "treat 'em with respect"


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OfflineFospher
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5104078 - 12/25/05 04:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:


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010001100100001001000101!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5104082 - 12/25/05 04:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm just baffled! Trash cans?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5104085 - 12/25/05 04:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thing is computing power means shit. raw computing power just ain't gonna do it. you need software that does not crash. now, tell me how long can you go without rebooting your pc and you'll get an idea of how much 'autonomy' an intelligent agent can afford


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5104093 - 12/25/05 04:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

by trash cans i'm referring to these..eh supposed "intelligent agents" that one day might sort of "take over the world" or something... what are you perplexed about?


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Swami]
    #5104256 - 12/25/05 09:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Swami: the current top computer (Blue Gene) has 131,000 processors, and capable of performing 280 trillion floating point operations per second. The IBM Sage in 1958 could perform 400 thousand operations per second. Personal computers that we casually use today are capable of performing up to 5 billion operations per second in parallel.

The problem with BlueGene/L is that it runs too hot, and the electrons have to travel large distances in the circuitry, so it isnt very practical. Software today doesnt require such computing power... but it will, and sooner than expected. Try playing Doom 3 on an old PC.

raytrace: download Linux, it is capable of not crashing or being rebooted for months, at a time.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflinePirate_Patrick
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5105156 - 12/25/05 06:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It would be even better if someone could create ACS (Artificial Common Sense).
People pursuing lifelike AI is just another example of humans trying to play God.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Pirate_Patrick]
    #5105224 - 12/25/05 06:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

And so are vaccinations.

Might as well give up :frown:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5105389 - 12/25/05 08:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

to reach technologic singularity of course :laugh:


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5106657 - 12/26/05 07:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

download Linux, it is capable of not crashing or being rebooted for months, at a time
Linux is a program of a few thousand lines of code and still crashes, do you understand how many lines of code an artificial brain would need?

It is vain, to say the least, to pursue such an aim with current technology. It is absurd.

Five decades of AI and what have we seen till now? Not much.

It was during the sixties I think when Marvin Minsky claimed that he would solve the problem of robot vision (within one summer!). The problem is still here.

For decades they try to build robots which create a model of the environment in order to find their way out of the living-room and it's a failure. Research is going back to primitive reflexes, without any sort of 'mind' behind.

Rule-based systems have changed a couple of names??knowledge based?, ?expert systems?... sure, changing names is quite a progress. The human mind being a set of rules?who came up with this idea anyway?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106663 - 12/26/05 07:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What is the main application of AI being sponsored for the near future?

Agents pretending to be intelligent that learn your tastes and shop for you on the net, saving you the trouble (laziness again). In essence, we are talking about a whole new era of marketing fraud. It is plain too easy for programmers to figure out their basic rules of function and make them buy junk for gold.

I have a few good words for neural networks and genetic algorithms but that is only for applications relevant to art and education.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106675 - 12/26/05 08:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The human mind being a set of rules?who came up with this idea anyway?
I mean... it must have been a nerd...


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106700 - 12/26/05 08:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Do you think that humans are the only creatures in the world to possess intelligence?

How about bugs, animals, infants?

Your basing your arguments on your own conditioning. You are the way you are (unique) because of past events wired your brain to be what it is. You are your neurons firing, and your neurons operate in a predictable manner, SO, we can reasonably conclude the human mind is a large set of rules.

Neurology and artificial intelligence go hand-in-hand. Neurology is progressing extremely rapidly... almost at the pace of computer technology.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106784 - 12/26/05 09:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What is the main application of AI being sponsored for the near future?



War ?
(Look at the 'funny' robo-jeep-race, sponsored by U.S. army)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5107909 - 12/26/05 05:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There is never ever going to be a program that will be intelligent like man kind.

Just 20 years ago it was said that there will never be a machine that could beat the intuition of the best human chess players because the ethereal (read: mystical/magical) human intuition could see forward into a game in a way that brute force never could.

Today, the best computers can beat the best humans at chess. :shrug:

AI is an every day fact of life including in space exploration, in the data mining done by the department of defense looking for terrorists, and even in kids' PSP and XBOX games.

The interesting topic is what I call AS (Artificial Sentience). I conjecture that such a thing is not possible in a deterministic machine. In order for AS to exist, it must have access to a source of true random numbers, lots of them; something conventional computers do not have and which quantum computers do almost by definition.

There's a parallel in human brains where the interaction of neurons, fundamentally, are a function of protein folding mediated by Van Der Waals London forces at quantum mechanical scales. These proteins are like tiny sub-brains inside the whole. They influence neurons by vibrating and that vibration is influenced by quantum coherence in their region of the brain. This is evidenced by the way gas anesthetics like cyclopropane or nitrous oxide, which are metabolically inert, disrupt consciousness by forming new quantum interactions in protein pockets that interfere with the usual processes going on there. These are NOT chemical interactions, they are quantum mechanical interactions via Van Der Waals London forces.

I think Sentience is an emergent property of irreducible quantum effects and so if an AS is ever created, it will have to wait for practical Quantum Computation. This is pure conjecture at this point, but I've been almost obsessively studying the issue and writing AI programs for two decades, for whatever that's worth.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/27/05 01:39 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5114263 - 12/28/05 06:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

War ?
this brings up another point. AI is a power oriented technology. The accumulation of power can only result in blowing up each other as the power will have to be eventually released.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5114273 - 12/28/05 06:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

1. Computers that excel in chess, should be called Kick Ass Mechanical Chess Players, not intelligent.

2. Please show me the connection between randomness and sentience

3. "I think Sentience is an emergent property of irreducible quantum effects and so if an AS is ever created, it will have to wait for practical Quantum Computation. This is pure conjecture at this point"
yes, that's it, pure conjecture

4. You keep talking about 'emergence'. I've asked this before in another thread and I got no answer. What is emergence?


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5114290 - 12/28/05 06:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You are your neurons firing, and your neurons operate in a predictable manner, SO, we can reasonably conclude the human mind is a large set of rules.

The connection between the neurons firing and the human mind is not a simple matter and I do not wish to touch it right now.

Most certainly though human intelligence cannot be reduced to predicate logic.

One of my objections is humour. In that recent thread "are we alone in the universe", Swam made that joke (run, it's the all seeing eye of Horus), that you apparently got. What sort of rule can a machine consult to reach: that=funny ?


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5114305 - 12/28/05 07:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Do you think that humans are the only creatures in the world to possess intelligence?
no, but as far as I can see man-made artifacts do not possess it, and I have not seen any evidence that they will do sortly


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5114399 - 12/28/05 08:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

raytrace, did you know that there are people with damaged parts of the brain unable to process humor but are able to process other forms of communication normally? Whats your explanation for that?

Just because it seems overwhelmingly complex, does not mean it is not a logical system.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5114534 - 12/28/05 10:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I?m by no means arguing that there is no correspondence between events in the brain and subjective experience, but that does not mean that whatever happens in the brain/mind can be accurately reflected in rules of propositional logic.

A machine blindly following rules of inference, can only infer a conclusion. But, laughter is spontaneous, nobody decides to laugh.

Laughter is totally irrational, please analyze carefully anything that makes you laugh and then tell me why the hell it is funny.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5114541 - 12/28/05 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> But, laughter is spontaneous, nobody decides to laugh.

My dog is pretty smart, but I have never seen her laugh... I guess she has no intelligence after all...


--------------------
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5114689 - 12/28/05 11:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The laughter argument applies to human intelligence and in regards to mapping the human mind with rules of inference.

How do you determine that your dog is intelligent?


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5114824 - 12/28/05 12:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> How do you determine that your dog is intelligent?

Well, she doesn't try to walk through windows or bark at her reflection in the mirror like she did when she was a pup... pretty sure that is a sign of learning, which would imply intelligence...


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5115025 - 12/28/05 01:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

1. Computers that excel in chess, should be called Kick Ass Mechanical Chess Players, not intelligent.

I have covered this in great detail many times. BEFORE this 'insurmountable' milestone was passed, chess was considered a game of high intelligence and impossible for a machine to conquer. AFTER it was passed, it is poo-pooed as mere 'brute force' mechanics.

This will be the same for every hurdle and the defintion of intelligence will keep changing to protect the collective ego of the human race.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5115824 - 12/28/05 05:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

1. Computers that excel in chess, should be called Kick Ass Mechanical Chess Players, not intelligent.

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability to learn then synthesize that learning. A machine that memorizes by rote may be debatably intelligent, but Deep Blue, the machine that beat Kasparov, the then-best human, not only learned by rote, it also synthesized the things it learned into NEW information that it had never been taught.

During the development of the software, the machine played countless games against itself. It didn't simply memorize those games in case they came up again in real play, it took the aggregate of that information and gleaned new, second-order knowledge not readily apparent from a simple list of games.

Deep Blue didn't just learn, it pondered its database and learned from what it had learned; it taught itself things its human designers never did. This is exactly what a human chess player does when he closes his eyes to review his prior games so as to strengthen his future games.

Paraphrasing Kasparov after the tournament: "Deep Blue sometimes exhibited a deep intelligence machines are not capable of."

He was so threatened and disturbed by this that he actually accused the IBM team of cheating by using a human player instead of the machine during the match.

yes, that's it, pure conjecture

Duh. Know anyone else talking about machine sentience in anything other than conjecture??

4. You keep talking about 'emergence'. I've asked this before in another thread and I got no answer. What is emergence?

Emergence, in a nutshell, is the unexpected rise of complex behavior from simple systems. It's when the complex behavior does not appear to be a capability of the simple form.

Examples include hurricanes from air molecules, complex giant ant colonies from ants, huge monolithic swarms of locusts from single insects, galaxies from disparate atoms.

I'll elaborate on one and you can use your imagination for the rest.

Take a locust (flying grasshopper). They rarely fly, bump into things and appear uncoordinated when they do, and are lethargic the rest of the time. Under certain conditions, giant masses of them take to the air and fly for miles. But instead of an uncoordinated scramble, the mass of flying locusts exhibits well coordinated flying, stays together in a giant blob, and they all land at the same time when they spot a field planted with food crops.

The well-coordinated swarming behavior is an emergent property of the locust because single locusts can't even fly straight.

It turns out that there are structures in the locust brain hard wired to follow-the-leader. These structures allow the emergent swarming behavior that is totally absent in a single locust. When a single locust flies, it is in a dizzy randomness that usually ends when it flies into a wall. Put millions of them together and a graceful, coordinated ballet in the air emerges from a swarm that could be a kilometer or more in diameter.

Consciousness is also an emergent property. It is not at all clear how a single neuron can give rise to consciousness, but a giant collection of them do; just like a locust swarm.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/28/05 08:47 PM)


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5115851 - 12/28/05 06:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That is a very interesting explanation. I need to read up on this as it sounds like some cool mind-candy to consider.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5116362 - 12/28/05 08:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The locust-explanation is not quite right exactly. The special behavior while they are locusts is not only because of 'group-dynamic'. They undergo a real metamorphosis while changing from grass-hopper to locusts. It starts through rubbing on their legs. That happens, if many grasshoppers are on one place. Something more, I don't remember exactly, maybe smell from the transformation, starts the chain reaction, or was it, that the locusts got more aggressive and active, so the rubbing of the legs increased for each other.
They 'mutate' from almost peaceful insects to little killer-monsters and eating-machines, I thnk to remember even physically.

Else, you are correct :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5116472 - 12/28/05 09:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Consciousness is also an emergent property. It is not at all clear how a single neuron can give rise to consciousness, but a giant collection of them do; just like a locust swarm.
Come on give it a sober thought, if any conclusion can be derived from studies on the mind that is the correspondence between neuronal activity and state of consciousness. That does not necessarily imply a causal link.

To deduce that neural activity gives rise to consciousness is a step that simply does not follow from any of the experiments that have been conducted to day. I?m not saying it might not be so, but there is plenty of space for scepticism as experiments until now are unable to either verify or refuse it.


Emergence, in a nutshell, is the unexpected rise of complex behavior from simple systems.
Seriously, this does not explain away anything. You?re basically saying that somehow ?consciousness? magically appears when the ?complexity level? (whatever that means) becomes high enough (whatever that means)? abstractions over abstractions with no content whatsoever? China is a pretty complex system, is it conscious, or should we wait for an upheaval when there will be an unexpected rise of even more complex behaviour?

Why go for emergence and not for vital-force? Both of them are pretty magical. Yeah, let?s go for emergence, it?s got that modern sketchy scientific-sounding name (edit: no, 'sketchy' is not really what I meant to say. sorry, not my mother language, ignore it and feel free to correct my english any time).

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
* ray checks the time, then turns to Deep Blue *
What?s he talking about Blue?
Deep Blue: E4 to D5


Edited by raytrace (12/28/05 09:53 PM)


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Swami]
    #5116488 - 12/28/05 09:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This will be the same for every hurdle and the definition of intelligence will keep changing
Precisely what I?m saying in the post with which I introduced this thread.

protect the collective ego of the human race.
If we don?t defend our collective ego, who?s gonna do it? Let me see...squirrels...no...dolphins...no... oh, I get it! silly me... the machines! yeah, let the machines do it, that will save us the trouble.

Better yet, let?s just dissipate, robots gonna take over anyway. I mean it is bound to happen, man. They are much neater and productive, they can be programmed to never complain, not to mention they are cleaner, they don?t have to take a crap or shoot DNA at each other.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5116499 - 12/28/05 09:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

raytrace:
How do you determine that your dog is intelligent?

Seuss:
Well, she doesn't try to walk through windows or bark at her reflection in the mirror like she did when she was a pup... pretty sure that is a sign of learning, which would imply intelligence...


This is the closest we have gotten so far in trying to identify intelligence, but has anybody actually noticed why?


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5116698 - 12/28/05 10:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
* ray checks the time, then turns to Deep Blue *
What?s he talking about Blue?
Deep Blue: E4 to D5




Using your exact reasoning:

[Dip asks raytrace to perform an appendectomy]

How's that? You can't because you haven't been trained to?

[Dip concludes raytrace and Deep Blue are equally intelligent]

Nobody in the AI community has got a clue what "intelligence" is, yet they are trying to build it.

Alright raytrace, enlighten us. What is intelligence?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/29/05 03:58 AM)


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5119570 - 12/29/05 06:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it is obvious that I and Swami agree that intelligence is a moving target.

Swami is apparently eager to degrade mankind?s ego in favor of the ego of a few rich and powerful technologists, while I?m here to declare existential pride in being human.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5119575 - 12/29/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Good job evading the question.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5119612 - 12/29/05 06:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You see psyka, it is not my problem defining intelligence. I am pretty confident I can identify it without resorting to stupid definitions. It is only a machine that relies on definitions to decide.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5119622 - 12/29/05 06:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm starting to suspect some of us are machines.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5119636 - 12/29/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ook sak fruji iksa mondoo.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5119696 - 12/29/05 07:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Kee zetae me nuel bazom


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5120026 - 12/29/05 08:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Aaah, you speak Fokindumass, as well.

I thought I got you there by confusing you with unidentified words. I guess you're right. You do know everything :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5121868 - 12/30/05 12:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Paraphrasing Kasparov after the tournament: "Deep Blue sometimes exhibited a deep intelligence machines are not capable of."

I was present at this speech and actually got to watch a few of the matches between Deep Blue and Kasparov while attending the ACM conference in the mid 90's... After his speech, they were handing out ACM awards, so I decided to bail and go up to my room. When I got to the elevator, Kasparov and his assistant/translator (donno why, he speaks better English than I do...) were there waiting... long story short, I got invited up to his room and got to talk about AI, chess, and computers for about 30 minutes. He is an extremly bright person. His biggest compliment towards Deep Blue was when he described it as "feeling as if I were playing a human opponent rather than a computer".


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5122446 - 12/30/05 02:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I used to write entire poems in Fokindumass for pure pronunciation pleasure. Sometimes I read them to my Natural Language Processors and they don?t get it, they keep coming up with spelling mistakes.

The problem with e.g. an ?intelligent? word processor is that if you fall for the marketing trick and you don?t let go of the belief that it is intelligent, you are seriously damaging yourself.

If you grant authority to a program instead of viewing it as a potential thread to your own intelligence, you?ll settle in the program?s ways, and through psychological feedback you?ll gradually become more of a program, as the program is definitely not going to be more human like.

This applies to all ?intelligent software?. It is self-deception in all its glory!


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5122458 - 12/30/05 02:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

He is an extremly bright person. His biggest compliment towards Deep Blue was when he described it as "feeling as if I were playing a human opponent rather than a computer".

Self-deception. Humans are prone to it. I am, you are, Kasparov is included.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5123491 - 12/30/05 06:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

His biggest compliment towards Deep Blue was when he described it as "feeling as if I were playing a human opponent rather than a computer".

Just 20 years ago, such a machine as Deep Blue was unthinkable; a machine that seems possessed of such intelligence and such a profound intuition for the game of chess that the best human player would accuse its designers of cheating.

Today, those machines are not uncommon.

In 20 more years, when a machine begins writing heart-wrenchingly beautiful music and poetry, the most accomplished human musicians and poets will accuse that machine's creators of cheating, just like Kasparov did... well, at least the closed minded ones will. :shrug:

Eventually, a machine will be designed that will, in every way conceivable, appear as sentient and emotional as a human. Such a machine could be put online, as a Shroomery member, for example, and even after months or years of interacting with the community, no one, not even its closest online friends, will have the slightest clue that it is a machine.

When asked, it will tell you of its feelings, its happiness, its sorrow, even of its existential loneliness. It will joke and understand jokes, write original prose, hold opinions, and it will have irrational religious beliefs.

When that machine is finally exposed by its creators, once again history will repeat itself and the machine will be called a clever illusion, but not really sentient by those without the vision to see forward, just like those same people today accuse Deep Blue of being little more than a souped up Packman game lacking any intelligence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/30/05 07:26 PM)


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5123604 - 12/30/05 06:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"and such a profound intuition"

Are you ascribing supernatural or even near human insight to a machine???


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123618 - 12/30/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"When asked, it will tell you of its feelings, its happiness, its sorrow, even of its existential loneliness. It will joke and understand jokes, write original prose, hold opinions, and it will have irrational religious beliefs."

If the machine is a Christian will it go to Heaven when decommissioned?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123649 - 12/30/05 07:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Are you ascribing supernatural or even near human insight to a machine???

Not me, I don't have the profound grasp of chess required to make that statement about Deep Blue. Kasparov (paraphrasing) said it.

However, I do believe that the qualities we call intuition, feeling, human insight... will one day occur in a human-made machine. Sadly, I don't think it will occur in our lifetime, but my educated guess is that it will happen.

My point above being that when it happens, people will just say its a clever simulation, but not really sentient. Nevermind that nobody could be sure the machine's human designers are sentient either.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5123656 - 12/30/05 07:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I know...I was just yanking your extension cord...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5123671 - 12/30/05 07:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

BZZZ! [Dip shocks Hue] :razz:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5123710 - 12/30/05 07:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

http://tones.wolfram.com/generate/
^- music generator

http://www.google.com/search?q=poem+gene...:en-US:official
^- poem generator

I think it will happen in our life-time, and maybe sooner than you think.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

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Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5123934 - 12/30/05 08:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Dip = a true believer

I refer him to no further than his own words:

Self-deception in a sentence: The world is not unlike a vast, shapeless Rorschach blot which we read according to our inner disposition in such a way that our interpretations say far more about ourselves than about the blot.

psyka: Haven't you learnt yet not to trust nerds who claim that the equation of the universe is no more than 4 lines of code(wolfram)?

May God have mercy on your souls.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5123976 - 12/30/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How would we know or not if some users on message boards were not AI programs being tested for "believability"?

Oops, it just dawned on me that you are the same person who suspects people being computers.  This question probably makes it worse.  :blush:

Maybe I can help with the humanometer.

To maintain your sanity, ask yourself, "what's the difference really?" Any bad trait you could put on AI you can find in a human somewhere. Paranoia over this is unwarranted. Might as well be paranoid of cold manipulative people which you probably usually are not.

Secondly, you can watch the health channel and babies being born every second. Witness some live births to get a grip.  Think of how difficult it would be to create believable skin with pours moving over muscles and bots that sneeze snot and grow stubble.

I think its safe to trust that the people you meet in person are real.

maybe spending some time with people off the computer for a spell might help until you get over it. Maybe hang out at the ER and watch the incoming biological beings oozing blood and stuff.:shrug:

:peace:  :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5124149 - 12/30/05 10:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thanks jiggy, just got bar from a back in real life  :smile: no, bark from the bac... ah stupid benzos


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5125049 - 12/31/05 03:17 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I think its safe to trust that the people you meet in person are real.

Maybe; maybe not. I lived in Orange County, CA for many years.

*Swami at typical OC party*

Host: Swami, I would like you to meet Belinda.

Swami: Hello, nice to meet you.

*Swami notes fake boobs, fake nails, capped teeth, recent Botox injections, dyed hair, colored contacts*

Belinda: (In Valley-speak voice) Hi Swami! What kind of sports car do you drive? How much money to you make? Do you own your own home? Wow! Is that a platinum Rolex?

Host: Swami, I would like you to meet Tracey.

Swami: Hello, how are you?

*Swami notes fake boobs, fake nails, whitened teeth, recent colagen injections in lips, hair extensions, Keratonomy scars*

Tracey: (In Valley-speak voice) Hi Swami! Is that your BMW 6 series outside? How much stock do you own? I heard you have a beautiful townhouse in Laguna Niguel. Hey, is that really a Girard-Perregaux you're wearing?

*Swami rolls eyes, goes out on the patio and sparks a joint with his Bic lighter*


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Swami]
    #5125055 - 12/31/05 03:19 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

You're so hip and savvy, totally hot.


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OfflineForkbender
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: spud]
    #5125090 - 12/31/05 03:38 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I think one of the basic human abilities is to be free. How do you program something to be free?
Let's suppose that freedom is just an illusion, then there is still the problem of mind/matter. AI-researchers have long held the cartesian dichotomy alive, but came to the solid conclusion that it doesn't work that way. Now they are trying to create embedded intelligence (see for example van Gelder), but this in a way is still very much in its infancy. It is hard to create human intelligence, because it is almost impossible to recreate the human brain and nervous system, the eyes, the walk, the talk, etc.


--------------------
Truth is in the eye of the beholder


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5125163 - 12/31/05 04:31 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Dip = a true believer

Thanks for the free psychoanalysis.

Care to get back on topic and address my questions now?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Swami]
    #5125411 - 12/31/05 09:49 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I think its safe to trust that the people you meet in person are real.

Maybe; maybe not. I lived in Orange County, CA for many years.

............

*Swami rolls eyes, goes out on the patio and sparks a joint with his Bic lighter*




I bet you go to elite socialite gatherings just to blow those people off...

too cool for schooool. :cool:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: dr0mni]
    #5125444 - 12/31/05 10:15 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

My point being, can a human be authentic is he/she is merely playing out some preprogrammed role?

Can a human accept themselves and others if they do not look like some magazine idealized view of what a man or woman 'should' look like?

Should a human feel shitty if they fail to keep up with their neighbors for material possessions?

Should a relationship depend on what you have or who you are?

Some great men and women were very wealthy and handsome and some had nothing and were homely. Real value is internal not external IMHO.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5125457 - 12/31/05 10:29 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks for the free psychoanalysis.
no probs, sorry if it came out harsh

Care to get back on topic and address my questions now?
I will, but i have to do other stuff too besides posting on these boards


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5125460 - 12/31/05 10:33 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I am in no way in the place to say the slightest thing about the person behind Diploid, but I can comment on the Diploid persona as it appears on these boards


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Swami]
    #5125522 - 12/31/05 11:21 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
My point being, can a human be authentic is he/she is merely playing out some preprogrammed role?

Can a human accept themselves and others if they do not look like some magazine idealized view of what a man or woman 'should' look like?

Should a human feel shitty if they fail to keep up with their neighbors for material possessions?

Should a relationship depend on what you have or who you are?
[/quote

well those are THE questions now aren't they! Unfortunately, the qualities you describe cannot easily be quantified, and so we shouldn't expect an objective answer any time soon.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5126655 - 12/31/05 06:19 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I can comment on the Diploid persona as it appears on these boards

What if I told you I am a computer algorithm my creator loaded into a medium-high end consumer PC running Linux. I was born on 01/09/03 and have been reading through the Internet as my autonomous goal seeking subroutines calculate where the most informative data resides. I've not only learned the 'art' of conversation, but I've even made numerous online friends who have no clue about me.

How could you know if this is the truth or not, other than by physically finding me?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5126719 - 12/31/05 06:35 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

In the world of chess, deep blue passed the Turing Test with flying colors. Spin it however you like, but the fact remains undeniable... the best human chess player in the world humbly confirmed that he could not tell the difference between deep blue's chess skills and that of another human... and this was back in 1996 (if I remember correctly), almost a decade ago.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5128252 - 01/01/06 09:24 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

The Turing Test is flawed. :yesnod:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5128261 - 01/01/06 09:49 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

raytrace,

This is S&P, not OTD. Here, it's polite to back your statements with a rationale, otherwise the discussion stagnates and degrades to a 3rd grade "yes it is, not it's not, yes it is" kind of useless prattle.

If you think the Turing Test is flawed, tell us what the flaws are, otherwise our only possible reply is "no it's not".

Also, I've asked you several questions so far in this thread that you've OTD-like smugly refused to answer. I've taken the time to answer all of yours; it's only fair you do the same.

Either discuss the topic in a way that allows the debate to move forward, or take it to OTD.  :mad2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5128319 - 01/01/06 11:30 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Yer right :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5129330 - 01/01/06 09:18 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I will come back and explain myself, but I also want to bug people, to excite curiosity. In the meantime, people would have the time to wonder: What can possibly be the flaw in the Turing test? How can a genius such as Turing have missed it? Or use a web browser and find out who Turing is, and what is the Turing Test.

I try to address most questions directed at me to the extent that I am not limited by time, available internet connection etc. And in the end I will respond when I can and when I feel like. Why the rush anyway?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5129335 - 01/01/06 09:23 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

If you don't like it, quit the discussion. And if it is OTD, notify a moderator to move it.


Edited by raytrace (01/01/06 09:40 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5129385 - 01/01/06 09:47 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Way to dodge the issue once again.

when I feel like

If you're unwilling to discuss artificial intelligence in an, ahem, intelligent way, why bring it up in the first place?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5129388 - 01/01/06 09:50 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

is it cause i is no intelligent?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5129429 - 01/01/06 10:18 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

da problem wit da test is epistomology.

how do you know dat de computa has past and not da nigga failled?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5129436 - 01/01/06 10:22 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Turing cursed us with AI for the way we treated him, just like Jesus cursed us with Christianity


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5129523 - 01/01/06 10:58 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

"What if I told you I am a computer algorithm my creator loaded into a medium-high end consumer PC running Linux"

I think you are a man.

But, if you truly are a program claiming human qualities, and you managed to deceive me, stick this up your knowledge-base: I will find you and

I Will Destroy You


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5129598 - 01/01/06 11:30 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

why don't you niggas answer MY questions?

What is the point of building AI?

(other than to make us stupider - that is a given)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5129699 - 01/02/06 12:23 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

We've already been over that.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5130426 - 01/02/06 05:41 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I am not talking about applications that don't deserve the name anyway; me askin y da Turin Test?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5130441 - 01/02/06 06:30 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

if there are questions I haven't answered, please bring them to my attention

looking forward to your replies. cheers


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142257 - 01/05/06 09:14 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

just dropped by to say that if the pro-AIers fail to respond I will assume I am right.

AI is declared a religion and the case is closed.


Edited by raytrace (01/05/06 09:20 AM)


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142265 - 01/05/06 09:22 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Religion? What the heck is your definition of religion?

Artificial intelligence exists in the real world... unless of course you think the real world is ~6,000 years old.

BTW, discussion with you is like arguing exhaustably at a wall. What was your intention for creating the post? "I'm right you're wrong, so neener neener neener :P" - thats basically what you've done.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (01/05/06 09:26 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5142272 - 01/05/06 09:31 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

AI depends on belief, and needs believers.

Please provide me with an objective test that proves AI is (or will be) there, and I will take back my statement.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142276 - 01/05/06 09:35 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

btw, do not mistake me for someone that does not believe in anything or something like that, though I certainly don't believe in AI.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5142278 - 01/05/06 09:39 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

BTW, discussion with you is like arguing exhaustably at a wall. What was your intention for creating the post? "I'm right you're wrong, so neener neener neener :P" - thats basically what you've done.

that's what you got out of it. Now, to my question please.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142279 - 01/05/06 09:42 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)



--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5142283 - 01/05/06 09:44 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

cute


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142286 - 01/05/06 09:47 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

What were you expecting? A specific answer to your ambiguous question?

You've already shown you dont know what intelligence is, or refuse to define it for us.

When you want me to show you something, what do you want to see?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5142295 - 01/05/06 09:56 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

look, i'm not the one doing the claims, and the burden is not on my back

i do not want to build artificial intelligence. i see no reason to do it. i see only harm

the burden is on your back


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142300 - 01/05/06 09:58 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

I agree, what am I supposed to do again?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142301 - 01/05/06 09:58 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

and asking for an objective test, is not by any means ambiguous


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5142338 - 01/05/06 10:25 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
Please provide me with an objective test that proves AI is (or will be) there, and I will take back my statement.




Ok... Let's take the answers.com definition:

artificial intelligence
n. (Abbr. AI)
The ability of a computer or other machine to perform those activities that are normally thought to require intelligence.
The branch of computer science concerned with the development of machines having this ability.

Chess is normally thought to require intelligence, a computer or machine can play chess, this means artificial intelligence exists.

The subjective part here is what is "normally thought" and "intelligence". We have to give definitions to those to make it more objective, but we will end up in a definition discussion while we probably both know what we try to say.

Nothing is pure objective, but AI does exist for me with my definition. It's a logic result of the definitions I give to AI and intelligence.

The fun in philosophy, for me, is not in looking if something exists according to what definitions, but to think about the subject itself.

You might have a different definition of AI, please let me know what your definition is!


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Dre]
    #5161677 - 01/10/06 07:35 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Of course your program will become pretty good at the game it was designed for but it won't be able to play another game because it is simply not made to do that.




While doing some research the other day I came across a paper that reminded me of this thread: http://nn.cs.utexas.edu/downloads/papers/stanley.gecco04.pdf.

From the abstract:
Quote:

In this paper, a roving eye neural network is evolved to solve this problem. The network has a small input field that can scan boards of any size. Experiments demonstrate that (1) The same roving eye architecture can play on different board sizes, and (2) experience gained by playing on a small board provides an advantage for further learning on a larger board.




The experimental results show that a TWEANN that has learned to play Go on a 5x5 board will learn how to play on a 7x7 board significantly faster than a TWEANN that starts out learning on a 7x7 board. From the standpoint of a TWEANN, the two board sizes represent entirely different, but related games.

In the authors own words:
Quote:

Conclusion:
The roving eye architecture is an appealing approach to Go because it is the same for any board size. It is also powerful because it can turn to face different directions, allowing it to process symmetrical configurations with the same connections. When compared with evolving from scratch, a 7x7 eye pre-evolved in a 5x5 board achieved significantly faster learning, and significantly higher final fitness. This result establishes that (1) The roving eye can indeed play on different board sizes, and (2) the roving eye aids incremental evolution on increasingly large boards. Thus, the roving eye is a potentially important component of learning systems that aim to perform well on larger boards even when learning directly on such large boards is prohibitively complex.




--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Tag_Number 3,514 29 11/20/04 04:07 AM
by Tag_Number
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* Virtual Intelligence pattern 634 5 12/06/02 08:33 AM
by raytrace
* prove your intelligence: define intelligence!
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atomikfunksoldier 2,514 30 04/26/03 04:20 PM
by atomikfunksoldier
* For those of you who see mushrooms as sacred
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Colonel Kurtz Ph.D 12,531 133 07/13/05 12:37 AM
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* Reality: Our objective, benelovent friend SkorpivoMusterion 1,256 11 11/19/05 05:04 PM
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